brightfame52
Active Member
I'm familiar with the context
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
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civic
Active Member
I don't think so otherwise you wouldn't use that verse since the context proves you are in error according to Jesus teaching.
brightfame52
Active Member
That's in your mind friend
civic
Active Member
No its actually Jesus teaching, not mine.
Context lesson on John 6 by two of the most abused scriptures in the entire NT by calvinists.
John 6:44-45
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Believers are drawn and believers come to the Son, not unbelievers.
Calvinists you pet passage in John 6 has been dismantled. Believe Jesus not your teachers, theologians, Calvin.
conclusion: those who are drawn to Jesus and come to Him are those who already believe ( not depraved unbelievers who must be regenerated first ) and have heard and learned from the Father.
John 6:65
And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
The Calvinist tries and bypass the reason Jesus gives in Jesus statement above that no one can come to Him unless it has been granted by the Father. They read tulip into the statement and it has nothing whatsoever to to with total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement or irresistible grace.
Here is the reason given by Jesus below in the previous verse. This answers the why question.
John 6:64- Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”
conclusion: only believers will come to Him, not unbelievers- those who are totally depraved sinners. The question is will you believe Jesus or the doctrines of man that are in error ?
hope this helps !!!
Speculator
Active Member
Yes Calvinism is false. Got out while you still can.
brightfame52
Active Member
That's in your mind as wellNo its actually Jesus teaching, not mine.
brightfame52
Active Member
Tulip Truth is the gospel of God's grace, see my thread
civic
Active Member
nice dodge once again and you ran away from John 6 and its context.
Below Jesus gives us the REASONS
John 6:44-45
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Believers are drawn and believers come to the Son, not unbelievers.
Calvinists you pet passage in John 6 has been dismantled. Believe Jesus not your teachers, theologians, Calvin.
conclusion: those who are drawn to Jesus and come to Him are those who already believe ( not depraved unbelievers who must be regenerated first ) and have heard and learned from the Father.
John 6:65
And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
The Calvinist tries and bypass the reason Jesus gives in Jesus statement above that no one can come to Him unless it has been granted by the Father. They read tulip into the statement and it has nothing whatsoever to to with total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement or irresistible grace.
Here is the reason given by Jesus below in the previous verse. This answers the why question.
John 6:64- Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”
conclusion: only believers will come to Him, not unbelievers- those who are totally depraved sinners. The question is will you believe Jesus or the doctrines of man that are in error ?
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
Did you read @brightfame52 it was their UNBELIEF that Jesus said was the REASON ?
not chosen, not election, not predestination etc.......
not chosen, not election, not predestination etc.......
brightfame52
Active Member
I accept those verses
brightfame52
Active Member
I don't know what you talking about friend
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
RATHER: No sinner can come to Christ by their free will!!! But every PERSON who does come to Christ must come by their free will!!
We were created to become HIS Bride.
HE therefore created us able to become HIS Bride by our free will because a true marriage and love can only arise from a free will response to the marriage proposal.
Iow, HE created everyone in HIs image, that is, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, with an equal ability and opportunity to chose by their free will to accept HIS proposal by faith ie, an unproven hope, or to put their unproven faith in the idea that HE was lying to us and not our creator GOD at all but a false god, the unforgivable sin.
At this point I am often asked, "Why is this decision unforgivable, answerable only by hell?" and the answer is:
a Free will decision must be sacrosanct and inviolable or it is not free. IF GOD can change our minds by fiat, by HIS willful decision, then how can our choice be called free? They chose to chance hell rather than ever to be HIS bride knowing that if HE should prove HIMself to be our creator GOD they were doomed, but repudiated HIM as a false god anyway, such was the certainty of their faith.
But some sinners are lost sheep. This implies they were sheep who were in the fold but who wandered astray from HIS care, ie, who sinned by their free will. In theological terms this refers to some who had put their faith in HIM as their GOD and saviour (becoming HIS chosen flock) then had sinned (becoming lost) and with their minds now enslaved to sin, they wandered away from their first faith to sin city where they suffer until HE can persuade them to return to their first faith in their Saviour, Heb 12:5-11.
Every theology that has HIS sheep becoming lost due to anything other than their own free will decision to sin is just plain wrong as it brings into disrepute HIS holiness and HIS loving righteousness and justice and denies our reason for being created.
civic
Active Member
The reason they did not come was on them , their unbelief as Jesus stated in John 6.
brightfame52
Active Member
After they're regeneration they are made willing by Christ power Ps 110:3
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
It's God who causes the will to do Phil 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
brightfame52
Active Member
What are you talking about Jn 6:44,65 Jesus said twice man can't believe on Him or come to Him. Man is in unbelief naturally, nothing he can do about it. Our nature the flesh is cursed in unbelief
If "are made willing" means "are enabled to will , choose, to be holy", I agree.
Then HE sanctifies us by our lives of suffering for sin, suffering the chastisements for our choices to sin as our wills, our ability to make choices, are being trained in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11.
It is our choices, which way we will choose, that is being trained, not our ability to make those choices. We don't chastise our children for not choosing what they can't do such as to fly but we are chastised for not choosing what we can and should choose by our free will, ie, righteousness.
brightfame52
Active Member
It's regeneration, and it is limited to His people
brightfame52
Active Member
In essence Jn 6:44,65 are saying no man can believe in Christ for Salvation unless its[belief] is given. Jn 6:65
65 And he said, therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Phil 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Paul here is stating the same thing Jesus stated in Jn 6:44,65 !
Of course many men come to Christ carnally, but not Spiritually. Remember some believed on Christ because of miracles and He fed them
Jesus is saying man naturally lacks spiritually the will and ability to believe in Him, so really, He talks against the man made doctrine of man's so called freewill. Man has not the ability because by nature he is dead in sin, dead to everything that is Spiritual 1 Cor 2:14. In the flesh, we as men are spiritually deaf, blind and sit in darkness Isa 42:7
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Lk 1:79
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
While unregenerate we make our abode in spiritual darkness!
In this condition man cannot and will not come to believe in Christ. It must be given to man to believe in Christ! 12
65 And he said, therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Phil 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Paul here is stating the same thing Jesus stated in Jn 6:44,65 !
Of course many men come to Christ carnally, but not Spiritually. Remember some believed on Christ because of miracles and He fed them
Jesus is saying man naturally lacks spiritually the will and ability to believe in Him, so really, He talks against the man made doctrine of man's so called freewill. Man has not the ability because by nature he is dead in sin, dead to everything that is Spiritual 1 Cor 2:14. In the flesh, we as men are spiritually deaf, blind and sit in darkness Isa 42:7
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Lk 1:79
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
While unregenerate we make our abode in spiritual darkness!
In this condition man cannot and will not come to believe in Christ. It must be given to man to believe in Christ! 12
Try again
The verse is not speaking of God effectually/irresistibly installing faith.
Rather, it is the giving of his word, By which men may believe
John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Those who believe Moses
John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.
Those who had God as their father
John 8:42 (LEB) — 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me.
Those desiring the will of God
John 7:17 (LEB) — 17 If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself.
civic
Active Member
Below Jesus gives us the REASONS.
You are proven wrong once again.
The context contradicts your view. Jesus corrects your view below and exposes it as false.
John 6:44-45
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Believers are drawn and believers come to the Son, not unbelievers.
Calvinists you pet passage in John 6 has been dismantled. Believe Jesus not your teachers, theologians, Calvin.
conclusion: those who are drawn to Jesus and come to Him are those who already believe ( not depraved unbelievers who must be regenerated first ) and have heard and learned from the Father.
John 6:65
And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
The reason ? in John 6:45 Jesus said that those who listen and learn from the Father ( believers ) are the ones who come to Me. And those who do not believe (unbelievers) do not. John 6:64
The Calvinist tries and bypass the reason Jesus gives in Jesus statement above that no one can come to Him unless it has been granted by the Father. They read tulip into the statement and it has nothing whatsoever to to with total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement or irresistible grace.
Here is the reason given by Jesus below in the previous verse. This answers the why question.
John 6:64- Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”
conclusion: only believers will come to Him, not unbelievers- those who are totally depraved sinners. The question is will you believe Jesus or the doctrines of man that are in error ?
hope this helps !!!
