Runningman
Active Member
Welcome to Unitarianism where the one and only true God is the Father. Glad to have you with us Christians at last.
The "Atheist Dilemma"
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Lions Mane
Active Member
The bible says:
“The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
“The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
I pity the fool
civic
Active Member
Jesus is claiming equality with the Father in John 17:1-5.
Welcome to the truth of the Trinity.
Glad to finally have you on the right side.
Amen !!!
Runningman
Active Member
Jesus explicitly denied equality with the one and only true God:
John 14
28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.
360watt
Active Member
And Jesus is giving eternal life in this passage.
No one has ever had this ability but God. Doesn't matter if you say the Father gave Jesus this power.. no other mortal man has ever had it. He is far away above the apostles and disciples.
360watt
Active Member
Wow..you are going to use the Father is greater than I verse again.
This passage isn't about the Father being a superior being. Jesus ASCENDS to the Father in the same position later.
This has already been explained to you a number of times.
civic
Active Member
nope I'm greater than my wife in rank in the family but she is just as human as I am.
next fallacy
civic
Active Member
Yes equality with the Father in Eternal life and was with the Father before the world existed.
100 % Deity and equality with the Father and is called the True God and Eternal life in 1 John 5:20.
Runningman
Active Member
Jesus was given something he didn't inherently have the power to give to others. Means he isn't God.
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Runningman
Active Member
Yes, of course I will use that endlessly contrary to whatever arguments you guys can dream up. You can argue, make distractions, but you can't change what the Bible says about the inequality of Jesus with God.
No Jesus does not accept worship. That mistranslated Greek word( Proskeneue) in the altered translations carries 5 different meanings from Greek to English. 1) worship to God-2) obeisance to a king-3) honor to a judge, plus 2 others. Every servant of the true God knew 100% the Messiah has a God( Psalm 45:7) thus would never bow in worship to one who has a God. They bowed in obeisance to Gods appointed king. Catholicism put worship to fit their false council teachings. This is reality Civic.Now only if Unitarians could read the above OBJECTIVELY.Much like the atheist the uni denies Jesus claims as God.
@Studyman @Runningman @Keiw1 @Pancho Frijoles @Peterlag
Victoria
Active Member
Amen!
My late husband could've attested to this, given he was a U.S. Army Airborne Ranger, in charge of a platoon of 200 men.
civic
Active Member
No Jew would ever worship anyone or anything except God. You shall have no other gods- worship God alone.
And we know the disciples worshiped Jesus and He allowed their worship. And many others in the gospel accounts worshiped Jesus.
This First Commandment sets the tone for the first four commandments, which can be summarized as, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength” (Deuteronomy 6:5). Jesus Christ called this summation the great commandment (Matthew 22:37-38).
And we know Jesus commanded His disciples love Him by forsaking everything to follow Him, total allegiance to Him and that they would be persecuted and die for Him. Only God can make such demands of anyone. Otherwise it’s idolatry.
And Jesus accepts all the same worship, glory, praise, honor, prayer that the Father receives from the Apostles.
And His Apostles called Him God and worshipped Him as God.
I will throw this one in for free at no charge.
Thomas never called the Father his God- But he called Jesus his Lord and his God.
And Jesus accepted being called his God( THEOS, YHWH) and allowed Thomas to worship Him. thus breaking the first commandment for any Jew.
But wait Thomas didn't break the 1st commandment because Jesus was His God !!!!!!!!
And all these below are worshipers of God the Son
1-We see in Matthew 2:11 the Magi worships Jesus
2-We see in Matthew 8:2 that a leper worships Jesus
3-We see in Matthew 9:18 Jairus worships Jesus
4-We see in Matthew 15:25 that a woman worships Jesus
5-We see in Matthew 14:33 the disciples worship Jesus
6-We see in John 9:38 that a blind man worships Jesus
7-We see in Matthew 28:9 the women worship Jesus
8-We see in Matthew 28:17 all the disciples worship Jesus
9-We see in Revelation 4 all creation worships Jesus.
10-We see in Revelation 5 all creation worships Jesus
Was the Son worshiped? Or was He simply given obeisance as so many unitarians contend?
Matt 2:11 And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.
The verb used in the above text is προσεκύνησαν (prosekunesan) from προσκυνέω (proskuneo), rendered worshiped.
There are 65 verses that contain the word. I would encourage you to go here and examine each use. Lets take a look at few occurrences to see if in fact the NT authors really meant for the religious worship of the Son of God.
John 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship
Mat 14:33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
Mat 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
Matt 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.
Acts 7:43 You took up the tent of Moloch, and the star of your god Rephan, the images that you made to worship; and I will send you into exile beyond Babylon
Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Rev 13:4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”
Rev 19:4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who was seated on the throne, saying, “Amen. Hallelujah!”
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Is there any question that προσεκύνησαν means actual worship; the same kind of which belongs only to YHWH:
Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”
Only God deserves to receive spiritual worship from men.
The New Testament word for worship (proskuneo) means to do obeisance, reverence, or acts of homage (see Thayer, Vine, and Arndt & Gingrich). This word is often used to describe men worshiping God: John 4:20-24; Revelation 4:10, 7:11, 11:16, 14:7, 19:4, 15:4; 1 Corinthians 14:25.
Many verses forbid worshiping men, angels, or any created thing.
Acts 10:25, 26 - Cornelius fell down to worship Peter. Peter forbade it saying that he himself was just a man. God deserves worship, but men do not. (Cf. Acts 12:20-23, 14:8-18.)
Revelation 22:8, 9, 19:10 - John sought to worship the angel, but the angel forbade it because he was a "fellow servant." "Worship God."
Romans 1:25 - People who worship and serve created things, rather than the Creator, have left the truth of God.
To worship any created thing - whether man, angel, heavenly body, or some other object in nature (mountain, ocean, etc.) - constitutes idolatry.
Only the true God deserves to be worshipped.
Matthew 4:9, 10 - Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.
Revelation 9:20 - Idolatry is forbidden because it constitutes worship of someone other than God (Exodus 20:3-6; Deuteronomy 6:13-15; Revelation 14:9-11). [See also Exodus 34:14]
Note: proskunew is forbidden when used for obeisance to men from a spiritual or religious motivation or purpose. The word is sometimes (but rarely) used in the New Testament non-religiously to refer to bowing in obeisance to a king, master, or other person in authority (see Matthew 18:26 - this usage is more common in the Old Testament).
When used for religious honor, however, worship is forbidden toward any except God. In this sense, "worship" is like "lord," "father," "master," etc. The words may be acceptably used for earthly, physical relationships (Ephesians 6:1-9; Colossians 3:21, 22), but we are forbidden to use such as religious honor to men or created things (Matthew 23:8-12). [On Revelation 3:9, cf. to 1 Corinthians 14:25]
The concept of Deity distinguishes the Creator from the creature. Things which are created do not have the unique characteristics of God, do not do the unique works of God, and therefore should not be addressed by the unique names of God nor should they be worshipped.
But Jesus received the unique worship God deserves.
He was often worshipped while He appeared on earth before His resurrection.
Matthew 8:2 - A leper came and worshipped Jesus. [9:18; 15:25; Mark 5:6]
Matthew 14:33 - After Jesus had calmed the storm, the disciples worshipped Him saying He was the Son of God.
John 9:38 - After Jesus had healed the blind man, He revealed Himself to be the Son of God (v35). The man said he believed, and he worshipped Jesus.
Note that such religious worship would have been blasphemy and should have been forbidden as it was in the case of Peter, the angel, etc., if Jesus had been just a man on earth.
Created beings also worship Him after His resurrection.
Matthew 28:9, 17 - After His resurrection, His disciples worshipped Him. [Cf. John 20:28, 29]
Luke 24:52 - Even after He had ascended back to heaven, they worshipped Him.
Hebrews 1:6 - Angels are instructed by God to worship Jesus.
Note that men were rebuked for worshipping men, angels, or created beings, but they were never rebuked for worshipping Jesus. Angels are even instructed by the Father to worship Jesus. The context of the above passages cannot fit the idea of obeisance to an earthly king or ruler. They refer to honoring Jesus as a religious authority - the very thing forbidden when offered to Peter, angels, etc.
Hence, Jesus accepted worship as an act of religious honor. The Scriptures, including Jesus' own teachings, would absolutely forbid this unless He possesses true Deity.
B. Glory and Honor
"Glory" (doxa) means "...praise, honor ... magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace ... majesty" - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer.
"Honor" (timh) means "...honor which belongs or is shown to one; the honor of one who outranks others, pre-eminence ... veneration ... deference, reverence..." - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer.
Like the words "power" and "wisdom," both these words can properly be used to refer to men in the physical realm (Matthew 6:29; 1 Peter 1:24). But they are also used to describe a special degree of glory which no one but God can possess.
God receives a special, unique glory and honor.
Psalm 24:7-10 - Jehovah is the "King of glory."
Psalm 29:3 - He is the "God of glory." [Acts 7:2; cf. Isaiah 60:19; Galatians 1:5; etc.]
Revelation 4:9-11 - God deserves this glory because He created all things. Note again the distinction between the creature and the Creator. [Revelation 5:13; Romans 11:36]
Isaiah 42:8, 48:11 - This glory is unique to God in that He refuses to share it with anyone else. Idols and created things have no right to receive this glory.
It follows that it would be blasphemy for anyone but God to receive this unique kind of glory. If anyone does receive this glory with God's approval, then that one must possess Deity.
But Jesus receives the unique glory of God.
John 5:23 - All men should honor the Son "just as" they honor the Father. To fail to give this honor to the Son is to fail to properly honor the Father.
"Just as" (kathos) is translated "even as" in KJV, ASV, NASB, RSV (cf. Thayer and Arndt & Gingrich). Other examples of its use in comparisons is found in Luke 6:31, 11:30, 17:26; John 3:14; 2 Corinthians 10:7; Colossians 3:13; etc.
The significance of the word, when used in comparisons, is that one item or action is just like the other regarding the aspect in which they are being compared. Hence Jesus rightly receives honor just like the honor the Father receives. And if we refuse to give such honor to the Son, then we are refusing to honor the Father!
John 17:5 - Jesus prayed to the Father to "glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (NKJV, cf. NASB, NEB; others are similar - ASV, KJV). Jesus asks to be glorified together with the Father with the glory He possessed "with" (para) the Father from eternity.
The clear implication is that Jesus and the Father both possessed the same glory before the world began. Jesus, in coming to earth as a servant, did not then appear to possess that glory but appeared as a man (this is part of what he gave up on coming to earth - Philippians 2:6-8). But having nearly completed His work on earth (John 17:4) and being ready to ascend to the Father, Jesus anticipated receiving this glory again (Philippians 2:9-11).
However, we have already learned that no one but God can receive the glory God has (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11). Jesus did receive that glory with the approval of the Father. Therefore, Jesus possesses Deity.
Revelation 5:12-14 - Both the Father and the Lamb (Jesus) were praised by the created things, who attributed to them "blessing and honor and glory and power." Note that the same glory and honor belongs to both Father and Son.
Hebrews 1:3 - Jesus is the brightness of the Father's glory (or the effulgence or radiance of His glory). That glory which shines from the Father also shines from Jesus because He is the creator (v2), upholds all things (v3), and is the express image of God (v3).
1 Corinthians 2:8; James 2:1 - Jesus is called the "Lord of glory," just as God in the Old Testament is called the "King of glory" (Psalm 24:7-10).
Note that the glory Jesus possesses is not just the glory possessed by men or angels. His glory is above that of angels (Hebrews 1:6, 13). He is above all principality, power, might, dominion, and every name that is named (Ephesians 1:21; Philippians 2:9-11). No created being possesses the glory and honor Jesus does.
We have seen, however, that Jesus deserves the glory, honor, and worship of Deity even as the Father does. God forbids this to be given to any but Deity, but Jesus does receive it. This would be blasphemy if Jesus were not God.
Conclusion
If Jesus is not Deity, then who is He? To understand God we must realize that God is not part of the created things. God is the Creator, separate and far above the creatures. This distinction is made again and again in the passages we have studied. Jesus must be classed on one side or the other. Either he is a created being or else He is Deity. To say He is not Deity is to say He is a created being. To say He is not a created being is to say He is Deity. There are no other alternatives.
Men are creatures; angels are creatures that are above men. But Jesus is above the angels and is not classed with them (Hebrews chap. 1 - see especially vv 5,6,13). We have seen that He is not an angel nor an exalted man, but the Bible attributes to Him that which can only be said of God. We have learned that:
* Jesus is expressly stated to be God or to possess Deity.
* Jesus is called by names that may only be used for God.
* Jesus possesses characteristics that only God can possess.
* Jesus does work that only God can do.
* Jesus deserves worship and honor that only God deserves.
In all these areas Jesus is described as the Creator, not a created being. He is eternal, has the power, and did the work of creation. He deserves honor as the Creator. Clearly He is not to be classed with the created things but with Deity.
But we have also proved that there is only one true God who made the universe. If Jesus is "god," He is not an idol nor a false god. Since He possesses Deity and there is only one true God, then He must possess true Deity, not some lesser form of deity. He must be included in the one true God or Godhead along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Finally, if Jesus is God then He always has been God and always will be God, since God's unique nature cannot change (Hebrews 13:8). God cannot cease to be God nor can God lose the characteristics of God. He can take on non-Divine characteristics as Jesus added the characteristics of a man when He came to earth, and He can limit the use of His powers in order to accomplish His Divine purposes as Jesus did on earth. But He cannot cease to be God and He cannot lose the power and characteristics of God.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
Now to educate the uni's on latreuo
In Matthew 4 I tend to think proskeuno and latreuo are being used interchangeably here, having the same definitional motif, as meaning sacred service to the one true God. But since you're drawing a distinction between "worship" [proskueno] and "service" [latreuo] here, I would be curious to see your definitions of these two words in this particular context?
The NIV, NASB, KJV, NKJ, 21c KJV, Young’s Literal Transl., Wycliffe NT, and the ESV all distinguish between “worship” and “service” in Matthew 4:9-10. I’ve yet to find a version that doesn’t.
Outside of Philippians 3:3; Hebrews 9:9, 10:2, latreuo is invariably rendered “to serve.” That meaning is more than possible in Philippians 3:3, as P. T. O’Brien says, “The choice of latreuw here is deliberate, given that in the LXX it denoted the service rendered to God as his peculiar people.” [Epistle to the Philippians, p.360.] In Hebrews 9:9, 10:2 “to serve” is the proper reading. [See Alan C. Mitchell, Daniel J. Harrington, Hebrews, p.161: “ ‘Serve’ latreuin is sometimes synonymous with ‘minister’ leitourgein.”]
Certainly, in Matthew 4:9-10 there is conceptual overlap between “worship” and “service”: to worship is a form of service. But as used through the LXX and NT, latreuo is more generic.
Latreruo rev 22,3
· The Father and the Son, although two distinct persons, are seen sitting one throne not two. (Rev 3:21, 22:1-3) It says throne not "thrones." This is a fatal blow to Unitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses who would logically expect there to be two thrones. They just cannot understand how the father and son are sitting on ONE throne at the same time.
· Christians are called, "bond-servants" (common word for slave) who serve the Father and the Son who are referred to as "Him" rather than "them." Yet we also know that the very first statement in the book of Revelation 1:1 is that Christians are bondservants of Christ. Then again Jesus calls Christian’s, "His bondslaves". Then again in Rev 2:20 we are called bondservants of Christ. Interestingly, in Revelation 7:3, 11:18, 19:2, 5 the Christians are called bondslaves of the Father. This is very significant, because when we finally get to the end of the book, we see Christians called bondslaves of both the Father and the son USING THE SINGLULAR twice in Rev 22:3 and Rev 22:6. Revelation 22:6 Another is the continued use of the singular to refer to both the Father and the Son: "And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. " (Revelation 22:6) This is doubly emphasized by Rev 22:16, where Jesus says it was He who sent his angel to Christians.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His [Christ’s] bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His [Christ’s] bond-servant John,
Revelation 2:20 ‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel , who calls herself a prophetess , and she teaches and leads My [Christ’s] bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols .
Revelation 22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him [both Father and Son]
· In Rev 22:3 they will serve the Father and Son as "him" rather than "them".
· It uses the singular "face" that they see, rather than faces. Yet if both are sitting on the throne, it is obvious they see the faces of both at the same time.
· Both the Father and the Son's name is to be marked on the foreheads of Christians. (Rev 3:12, 14:1) Yet Revelation 22:4 uses the singular "His name" on the forehead, proving it refers to both although it sounds like it refers to a single individual. Another interesting observation is that Rev 14:1 uses the plural names, yet in Rev 22, where the unity is strongly emphasized, the singular name is used. This powerfully proves that both the Father and Son are served by Christians in Rev 22:3.
· In Rev 22:5, The Father and Son reign forever. Yet in Rev 20:6 the singular "Him" is applied to the two of them, as though they are one.
The parallel use of Him to refer to two people in Rev 20:6 proves Rev 22:3 refers to both Jesus and the Father.
The Father and the Son, although two distinct persons, are seen sitting one throne not two. (Rev 3:21, 22:1-3) It says throne not "thrones." This is a fatal blow to unitarians who would logically expect there to be two thrones. They just cannot understand how the father and son are sitting on ONE throne at the same time. Also we see the following regarding the One God seen in the passages of Revelation as the Father/Son. We see the singular face that they see not faces faces. Both are sitting on the throne, it is obvious they see the faces of both at the same time. Both the Father and the Son' name is marked on the their foreheads in Rev 3:12 and 14:1) But we also see in 22:4 uses the singular His name on their foreheads. In Rev 14:1 we see the plural names but in Rev 22 the singular name is used. . Also in 22:5 the Father and Son together reign forever and in 20:6 the singular Him is applied to the Father/Son, because they are the One God. We see the plurality of the Godhead in display throughout the book of Revelation and that One God who is 3 Persons being described in the singular many times. Believers worship the one God on the One throne with the name of the Father/Son on their foreheads worshiping Him(Father and Son). They see His face (Father/Son). We also see Jesus tell us the same thing in Matt 28:19 when He declares to His Disciples to baptize them(plural) in the name(singular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. #3 Distinct Persons, One name, One God. This is exactly what we see in the book of Revelation.
Case closed! Check and Mate uni's
hope this helps,
In Matthew 4 I tend to think proskeuno and latreuo are being used interchangeably here, having the same definitional motif, as meaning sacred service to the one true God. But since you're drawing a distinction between "worship" [proskueno] and "service" [latreuo] here, I would be curious to see your definitions of these two words in this particular context?
The NIV, NASB, KJV, NKJ, 21c KJV, Young’s Literal Transl., Wycliffe NT, and the ESV all distinguish between “worship” and “service” in Matthew 4:9-10. I’ve yet to find a version that doesn’t.
Outside of Philippians 3:3; Hebrews 9:9, 10:2, latreuo is invariably rendered “to serve.” That meaning is more than possible in Philippians 3:3, as P. T. O’Brien says, “The choice of latreuw here is deliberate, given that in the LXX it denoted the service rendered to God as his peculiar people.” [Epistle to the Philippians, p.360.] In Hebrews 9:9, 10:2 “to serve” is the proper reading. [See Alan C. Mitchell, Daniel J. Harrington, Hebrews, p.161: “ ‘Serve’ latreuin is sometimes synonymous with ‘minister’ leitourgein.”]
Certainly, in Matthew 4:9-10 there is conceptual overlap between “worship” and “service”: to worship is a form of service. But as used through the LXX and NT, latreuo is more generic.
Latreruo rev 22,3
· The Father and the Son, although two distinct persons, are seen sitting one throne not two. (Rev 3:21, 22:1-3) It says throne not "thrones." This is a fatal blow to Unitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses who would logically expect there to be two thrones. They just cannot understand how the father and son are sitting on ONE throne at the same time.
· Christians are called, "bond-servants" (common word for slave) who serve the Father and the Son who are referred to as "Him" rather than "them." Yet we also know that the very first statement in the book of Revelation 1:1 is that Christians are bondservants of Christ. Then again Jesus calls Christian’s, "His bondslaves". Then again in Rev 2:20 we are called bondservants of Christ. Interestingly, in Revelation 7:3, 11:18, 19:2, 5 the Christians are called bondslaves of the Father. This is very significant, because when we finally get to the end of the book, we see Christians called bondslaves of both the Father and the son USING THE SINGLULAR twice in Rev 22:3 and Rev 22:6. Revelation 22:6 Another is the continued use of the singular to refer to both the Father and the Son: "And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. " (Revelation 22:6) This is doubly emphasized by Rev 22:16, where Jesus says it was He who sent his angel to Christians.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His [Christ’s] bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His [Christ’s] bond-servant John,
Revelation 2:20 ‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel , who calls herself a prophetess , and she teaches and leads My [Christ’s] bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols .
Revelation 22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him [both Father and Son]
· In Rev 22:3 they will serve the Father and Son as "him" rather than "them".
· It uses the singular "face" that they see, rather than faces. Yet if both are sitting on the throne, it is obvious they see the faces of both at the same time.
· Both the Father and the Son's name is to be marked on the foreheads of Christians. (Rev 3:12, 14:1) Yet Revelation 22:4 uses the singular "His name" on the forehead, proving it refers to both although it sounds like it refers to a single individual. Another interesting observation is that Rev 14:1 uses the plural names, yet in Rev 22, where the unity is strongly emphasized, the singular name is used. This powerfully proves that both the Father and Son are served by Christians in Rev 22:3.
· In Rev 22:5, The Father and Son reign forever. Yet in Rev 20:6 the singular "Him" is applied to the two of them, as though they are one.
The parallel use of Him to refer to two people in Rev 20:6 proves Rev 22:3 refers to both Jesus and the Father.
- Both are co-recipients of worship Heb 1:6; Rev 5:11-14; Matt 14:33, 28:9; John 9:38; Rev 19:10
- Both are co-recipients of the kind of "service" that is only allowed to God: Matt 4:10; Rev 22:3f Greek--latreuo)
- Notice the identical structure in Rev 20:6 speaks of Christ or both, but not the Father alone. "but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." Rev 20:6
- Both Rev 20:6 and 22:3 have the Father and the Son referred to as the singular "him". This shows the unity between the two.
- Both Rev 20:6 and 22:3 use the singular HIM to refer to both the Father and the Son.
- Now Notice Rev 20:4, "reigned with Christ for a thousand years"
- What this means is that Rev 20:6 sets up a precedent that when two are mentioned, if it refers to only one of either the Father or the Son, it must refer to the latter!
- This means that, based upon the example of Rev 20:6, the one we are said to serve in Rev 22:3 is Christ.
- Of course we believe the singular refers to both, but Jehovah's Witnesses twist the passage to refer to only one. We are merely proving that if the singular "serve Him" rather than "serve them" refers to only one, it would be the last one mentioned... the Son. This is exactly what happens in Rev 20:6.
- The Jehovah’s Witnesses completely ignore this fact and claim that Rev 22:3 excludes Christ. They don’t comprehend the irrefutable power of the pattern of "singular use" in the Book of Revelation and specifically Rev 20:6.
The Father and the Son, although two distinct persons, are seen sitting one throne not two. (Rev 3:21, 22:1-3) It says throne not "thrones." This is a fatal blow to unitarians who would logically expect there to be two thrones. They just cannot understand how the father and son are sitting on ONE throne at the same time. Also we see the following regarding the One God seen in the passages of Revelation as the Father/Son. We see the singular face that they see not faces faces. Both are sitting on the throne, it is obvious they see the faces of both at the same time. Both the Father and the Son' name is marked on the their foreheads in Rev 3:12 and 14:1) But we also see in 22:4 uses the singular His name on their foreheads. In Rev 14:1 we see the plural names but in Rev 22 the singular name is used. . Also in 22:5 the Father and Son together reign forever and in 20:6 the singular Him is applied to the Father/Son, because they are the One God. We see the plurality of the Godhead in display throughout the book of Revelation and that One God who is 3 Persons being described in the singular many times. Believers worship the one God on the One throne with the name of the Father/Son on their foreheads worshiping Him(Father and Son). They see His face (Father/Son). We also see Jesus tell us the same thing in Matt 28:19 when He declares to His Disciples to baptize them(plural) in the name(singular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. #3 Distinct Persons, One name, One God. This is exactly what we see in the book of Revelation.
Case closed! Check and Mate uni's
hope this helps,
I think you are missing the intent of God in this scripture by your claiming that God is speaking to only Atheists here.
Psalms 14: 1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all "the workers of iniquity" no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Who was it that persecuted Abel? An Atheist? Or was it a person who "Professed to know God", even gave offerings to God, but said in his heart, "I don't believe in God" and killed his brother for no cause anyway.
If God tells a person not to eat something, as the example Of Eve shows us, or you will die, how does this person say "in their heart" that "there is no God"? It would be by eating that which God said not to eat, Yes? This doesn't make them an Atheist, it just means that when they "knew God, they didn't Glorify HIM as God". And by their lips they might say, "There is a God", but their lawless works show that in their heart, they don't believe in God. Otherwise they would respect and honor Him with obedience, like EVERY example of Faithful man in the Bible did. Like the generation that God is In.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is "in" the generation of the righteous. ("IN WHAT"? Their lips? A picture on the wall? Or "IN" their Hearts, mind and soul?) 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, "because" the LORD is his refuge.
Who was it that persecuted David? Atheists? Or men who Professed to know God, but in their hearts, rejected Him?
Who did Jesus warn about when His Disciples asked Him about the Future? Atheists? Or of men who called Him Lord, Lord, but said in their hearts, "there is no God, no evil shall come upon me"?
Who killed the Prophets? Atheists? Who persecuted the Church of God? Atheists? How could the Priests and Scribes kill Jesus and Stephen? Was in not because they said in their hearts, "There is no God"? Doesn't this mean that in their heart, they didn't believe in the One True God, even though they professed to know Him? Even though HE told them not to Kill?
When the Israelites built the golden calf, were they not saying in their hearts, "there is no God"?
Ps. 5: 8 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face. 9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue. 10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; "for they have rebelled against thee". 11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. 12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.
And not only that, but in your teaching a Sun god worshipper would not be considered a Fool. Egyptians worshipping Egyptian gods would not be considered a fool. The Greek god worshippers of Paul's Time would not be a Fool. Even Satanists in modern times would not be included as a Fool, in your teaching.
If God tells me "Don't Steal" because the wages of Stealing is death, and I hear Him, but I steal anyway, this is because I don't believe in Him, I have said "In my heart", there is no God
I think you should reconsider your philosophy concerning God's Intent through David in Psalms 14.
Now only if Unitarians could read the above OBJECTIVELY.
@Studyman @Runningman @Keiw1 @Pancho Frijoles @Peterlag
My issue with the image of God in the likeness of an extremely handsome man, with long flowing hair, is that God's Commandment, the first and greatest Commandment, forbids such behavior. If I call Jesus Lord, Lord, but I promote this popular image of God in the Likeness of man, I have said in my heart, "I don't believe God", or as David puts it, "There is no God".
Because I believe the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, and the Lord's Christ exists, and I believe His Every Word, I refuse to disrespect and dishonor Him by adopting the images of God created by the religious system of this world that God placed me in.
My issue with the Jesus you promote, is that to believe you, I would have to believe the Christ, the Rock of Israel, didn't come in the flesh. That HE didn't overcome sin and temptation by Faith, rather, HE overcame, "Because" HE was God and not a man. HE couldn't Sin, "Because" HE was God and not a man. HE couldn't die, "Because" HE was God and not a man.
This philosophy makes a mockery of His Life, demeans His Dedication to His Father, His Submission and "denial of self" that all Faithful men are instructed to "DO" by this same Christ. To believe you, I would have to believe that Jesus requires Faith from me, but HE would not lift faith with even one finger. That I am to deny my flesh, but Jesus didn't have to deny His Flesh "because" HE was God.
That Jesus overcame sin in this world because when the going got tough for Him, as it does for all humans, HE just kicked in a little God Power that HE himself withheld from all other humans. Then when HE did what any "GOD" could do, HE gave Himself the Glory and a name above all other humans.
I believe the Christ, the Spiritual Rock of Israel, came in the flesh, and overcame sin and temptation by Faith in God, which means HE believed, and honored and respected His Father with His mind, body and soul. He is the Author and Finisher of my Faith. I will not join you in your demeaning and disrespectful judgement against the Perfect Human, by preaching to others that HE risked nothing, that HE faked His own death, that HE faked the struggles men go though when their faith is tested. Nor will I join you in your teaching that Jesus' Faith wasn't tested "Because" HE wasn't a human, but God.
My belief in this matter comes from considering and believing ALL that is written in the Holy Scriptures.
I know you will not be persuaded of these things, Jesus said so. But I wanted to post the reason for the Hope since you saw fit to post my name.
Runningman
Active Member
Jesus isn't shown to have accepted worship anywhere in the Bible. Where he was bowed to, it was physical bowing, not the same thing as what Jesus taught his followers to do. Jesus taught his followers to only worship the Father, which is the only instruction and directive about worship for Christians in all of Scripture.
John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
Similarly, there are no teachings or directives to pray to Jesus in the entire Bible. The one verse in which Jesus taught about prayer, he explicitly identified the Father as the only named recipient of prayer:
Matthew 6
6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
9So then, this is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be Your name.
Those two Christians teachings about only worshipping the Father and praying to the Father mean Jesus isn't God. This is fully in line with the Christian belief that the Father is the only true God, according to John 17:3 and 1 Corinthians 8:6.
John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
Similarly, there are no teachings or directives to pray to Jesus in the entire Bible. The one verse in which Jesus taught about prayer, he explicitly identified the Father as the only named recipient of prayer:
Matthew 6
6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
9So then, this is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be Your name.
Those two Christians teachings about only worshipping the Father and praying to the Father mean Jesus isn't God. This is fully in line with the Christian belief that the Father is the only true God, according to John 17:3 and 1 Corinthians 8:6.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Wrong again.....
Two different sources weigh in on this.
G First and Got Questions follows.
Hi FreeInChrist!
Yes — Jesus did accept worship during His earthly ministry, and He continues to receive worship as the risen Lord. The New Testament is crystal clear on this.
1. Jesus Accepted Worship on Earth
| Verse | Who Worshiped | Jesus’ Response |
|---|---|---|
| Matthew 14:33 | Disciples in the boat | “Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’” |
| Matthew 28:9 | Women at the tomb | “They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.” |
| Matthew 28:17 | 11 disciples on mountain | “When they saw him, they worshiped him…” |
| John 9:38 | Man born blind | “Lord, I believe,’ and he worshiped him.” |
| Luke 24:52 | Disciples after ascension | “Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem…” |
2. Jesus Claimed the Right to Be Worshiped
| Verse | Jesus’ Words | Meaning |
|---|---|---|
| John 5:23 | “That all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father…” | Same worship as God |
| Matthew 4:10 (to Satan) | “Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.” | He applies OT worship to Himself |
| Philippians 2:10–11 | “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow…” | Fulfills Isaiah 45:23 (Yahweh) |
3. Early Christians Worshiped Jesus — and He Received It
| Verse | Evidence |
|---|---|
| Hebrews 1:6 | “Let all God’s angels worship him.” |
| Revelation 5:12–14 | “Worthy is the Lamb… To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be… honor and glory…” |
| Acts 7:59 | Stephen: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (prayer = worship) |
4. **Jesus Rejects False Worship — But Accepts True
| Example | Response |
|---|---|
| Satan’s temptation (Matt 4:10) | Rejects — worship God alone |
| Blind man’s worship (John 9:38) | Accepts — “You have seen him…” |
Final Answer
Worshiping Jesus = Worshiping God. (John 5:23 — “Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father.”)
Got ?
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