MINE EYES HAVE SEEN THE GLORY - OR THEY HAVE NOT

[jeremiah1five]

All covenants are with men for the sake of other men or on behalf of all men. You are reading your theory into the text!

The Abrahamic Covenant may be with Abraham (a man) but it was God who walked between the animal halves thus establishing God's promise to fulfill His Word to Abraham regardless of any precondition except circumcision.

That Peter was writing to primarily Jewish believers, does not mean that he is only referring to Jewish believers. That something is written to, does not necessarily mean it is written about those to whom it is written. Peter’s words are directed at both Jews and Gentiles, thus mankind in general, the large majority of whom are not yet saved, and the logical object of God’s desire for their repentance.
Doug

When you receive a letter, or maybe a Christmas card to your family does it also apply to your neighbor or the family in the next block? No, it doesn't. ALL the writers of the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation are written to Jewish Christians and to Jews in general -

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Jn 20:31.

- and discussing the effect of Messiah and the Holy Spirit experience upon the covenants in Israel's history.

What transpired at Pentecost was a Jewish phenomenon and Peter and the rest interpreted everything that happened to the Jews from a Jewish mindset and background. Gentiles were the furthest thing from their mind until Cornelius about 18 years later right before the Jerusalem Council in A.D. 50.
Pentecost was A.D. 32. Christ was crucified in A.D. 32. In 2032 will be 2000 years.

That's the error and arrogance of Gentile believers since the destruction of the Jewish Temple which ended the "ism" of Judaism how they interpreted everything that was happening to uncircumcised Gentiles at the exclusion of the Jews not knowing God was blinding the eyes of His people until Saul made comment in his letter to Jewish Christians at Rome. But to Peter, James, and John, and Saul and Apollos, and the rest of the Jewish Christians everything that happened in Israel - and later when born-again Jews returned to their homes and synagogues in Gentile lands - was interpreted from a Jewish standpoint, and the people of both Israel and Judah KNEW the New Covenant was given to the House of Israel. This was unmistakable. On one day (Pentecost) Christ began building His Church as promised and saved 3000 Jews with the Holy Spirit. And Acts 2:47 says Jesus Christ added to His Church DAILY such as should be saved; it is not unreasonable that by weeks end using 3000 as a median number 21,000 Jews were saved and born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit.
21,000 Jews.
JEWS not Gentiles.

 

[TibiasDad]

The Abrahamic Covenant may be with Abraham (a man) but it was God who walked between the animal halves thus establishing God's promise to fulfill His Word to Abraham regardless of any precondition except circumcision.

When you receive a letter, or maybe a Christmas card to your family does it also apply to your neighbor or the family in the next block? No, it doesn't. ALL the writers of the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation are written to Jewish Christians and to Jews in general -

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Jn 20:31.

- and discussing the effect of Messiah and the Holy Spirit experience upon the covenants in Israel's history.

What transpired at Pentecost was a Jewish phenomenon and Peter and the rest interpreted everything that happened to the Jews from a Jewish mindset and background. Gentiles were the furthest thing from their mind until Cornelius about 18 years later right before the Jerusalem Council in A.D. 50.
Pentecost was A.D. 32. Christ was crucified in A.D. 32. In 2032 will be 2000 years.

That's the error and arrogance of Gentile believers since the destruction of the Jewish Temple which ended the "ism" of Judaism how they interpreted everything that was happening to uncircumcised Gentiles at the exclusion of the Jews not knowing God was blinding the eyes of His people until Saul made comment in his letter to Jewish Christians at Rome. But to Peter, James, and John, and Saul and Apollos, and the rest of the Jewish Christians everything that happened in Israel - and later when born-again Jews returned to their homes and synagogues in Gentile lands - was interpreted from a Jewish standpoint, and the people of both Israel and Judah KNEW the New Covenant was given to the House of Israel. This was unmistakable. On one day (Pentecost) Christ began building His Church as promised and saved 3000 Jews with the Holy Spirit. And Acts 2:47 says Jesus Christ added to His Church DAILY such as should be saved; it is not unreasonable that by weeks end using 3000 as a median number 21,000 Jews were saved and born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit.
21,000 Jews.
JEWS not Gentiles.

jeremiah,

With all due respect, why do you blather on about things that nobody denies? Yes, the earliest events of the NT are almost exclusively Jewish in their experience. Yes, the Jewish race is set apart by God!

But while the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were chosen as God’s people, they were also to be examples of God’s grace and love for the rest of mankind, for “I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.” (Isa 60:6) And, “Say among the nations, “The LORD reigns.” The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.” (Psalm 96:10) And, “you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” (Exodus 19:6- which Peter quotes in 1 Peter 2:9)

And Jesus commissioned the apostles to make disciples in “Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the Earth”, which means that the plan and covenants of God we’re always looking to the benefit of the whole of mankind! The church is now Israel, through Abraham by faith. We have be grafted into the cultivated olive tree, and the natural branches are cut off because of unbelief. The offspring of Adam were meant to be in God’s family from the beginning, and God’s quest of grace is for all mankind.

“Whosoever believes” is not pointed at Jews alone, but at all who hear the gospel!


Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

jeremiah,

With all due respect, why do you blather on about things that nobody denies?

What others deny is that the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation is written to and for the Jews and Jewish Christians.

Yes, the earliest events of the NT are almost exclusively Jewish in their experience. Yes, the Jewish race is set apart by God!

Almost? How's totally sound to you?

But while the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were chosen as God’s people, they were also to be examples of God’s grace and love for the rest of mankind, for “I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.” (Isa 60:6) And, “Say among the nations, “The LORD reigns.” The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.” (Psalm 96:10) And, “you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” (Exodus 19:6- which Peter quotes in 1 Peter 2:9)

All well and good, but do you receive those words with the knowledge God made no covenant with uncircumcised Gentiles and that Gentiles have no covenant with God to speak of. Ever.

And Jesus commissioned the apostles to make disciples in “Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the Earth”, which means that the plan and covenants of God we’re always looking to the benefit of the whole of mankind!

Jesus Christ sent His disciples to the lost sheep of the House of Israel to herald to those twelve tribes who remained in Gentile lands while a remnant returned to Israel at the release of Cyrus, that Messiah had come, and that God has kept His promise to Israel.

The church is now Israel, through Abraham by faith. We have be grafted into the cultivated olive tree, and the natural branches are cut off because of unbelief.

Show me in the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 17) uncircumcised Gentiles are part of or are mentioned as part of this covenant. Let me add there is none. IF God wanted uncircumcised Gentiles part of the Abrahamic Covenant they would be circumcised and live as the Hebrews and the children of Israel do. It was Hebrews that went into Egypt and eventual bondage of slavery, and it was Hebrews that God brought out of Egypt with His mighty arm. There were no Gentiles that came out of Egypt with the children of Israel.

And you are in error that uncircumcised Gentiles are the "wild olive tree" in Romans 11. First, God tells Jeremiah to identify Israel as an olive tree. Second, to be a wild "olive" tree one would have to be of the seed of Israel just as a "wild olive tree" is a seed of a regular olive tree. And this excludes uncircumcised Gentiles for they have no covenant with God and there is no mention or evidence in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets of God ever making or having covenant with uncircumcised Gentiles. So, why do you attempt to include yourself into Israel's inheritance from God.

The offspring of Adam were meant to be in God’s family from the beginning, and God’s quest of grace is for all mankind.

If God has "grace" for "all mankind" then all mankind would be saved. But your words are not true. God has no will or plan to save "all mankind" only those He loves and whom He loves is His betrothed Israel excluding all others else they would be mentioned as part of any covenant when the covenant was being established. If God loves anyone other than Israel His Bride, He would be guilty of emotional and/or covenant adultery. God is betrothed and covenanted with ONE 'woman.' His Bride and Church called Israel.

“Whosoever believes” is not pointed at Jews alone, but at all who hear the gospel!
Doug

"Whosoever" is in context to whom is in covenant with God and that means Israel. Jesus speaks within the confines of God's covenant with Israel when He says, "God so loved the world [of Israel] that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever [of Israel] believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." And this is the nature of God's covenant with Israel.
Covenant.
With Israel.

So, in your first statement you say: "Yes, the earliest events of the NT are almost exclusively Jewish in their experience. Yes, the Jewish race is set apart by God!" but everything that follows from your keyboard denies what went before and along with other uncircumcised, non-covenant, hard-core Gentiles make attempt to include your selves into God's covenants with Israel or that you are grafted into the natural olive tree when you are not even an olive tree let alone a "wild" olive tree.

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom
as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:4–5.

None of the above are given to Gentiles. And if none of the above is given nor applies to Gentiles then why the attempts to make Scripture say that it does when it doesn't?

God sent His Son to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
God did not send His son to the lost goats of the house of Gentiles.

 

[TibiasDad]

So, in your first statement you say: "Yes, the earliest events of the NT are almost exclusively Jewish in their experience. Yes, the Jewish race is set apart by God!" but everything that follows from your keyboard denies what went before and along with other uncircumcised, non-covenant, hard-core Gentiles make attempt to include your selves into God's covenants with Israel or that you are grafted into the natural olive tree when you are not even an olive tree let alone a "wild" olive tree.

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom
as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:4–5.

Rom 9:6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”b 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

None of the above are given to Gentiles. And if none of the above is given nor applies to Gentiles then why the attempts to make Scripture say that it does when it doesn't?

If it is not by natural descent but by faith in what God has promised, then genealogy is meaningless. Abraham was not a Jew until he believed God! In God's economy his people are those who believe, they alone are true Israel.

God sent His Son to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
God did not send His son to the lost goats of the house of Gentiles.

Rom 11:13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

The “you” are Gentiles and the “they” are genealogical Jews who have not believed. The “wild olive” branches are Gentiles grafted in through believing, and the natural branches are Jews who have not believed.

Gentiles are grafted into the covenant because the covenant has always be based on faith alone! If by faith it is not by clan or class! If by faith, it is by grace, forgoing any boasting that ‘I am a Jew, chosen by God’! To deny this is to deny the gospel, and to preach another gospel!

Christ died for the sins of the world, not just Jews!


Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

Rom 9:6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”b 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Saul is defining who a descendant of Abraham is, and that is, those born from Isaac and Jacob.
And last time I check the children of the promise (Abrahamic Covenant) are those who are physical descendants of Abraham to whom God has covenant. Take a closer look at your Scripture:

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Rom. 9:8.

The "children of the flesh" (as opposed to the children of the spirit - Jacob) are the children of the bond woman (Ishmael - although circumcised didn't matter for the promise went through Isaac) as Saul makes distinction by referencing Isaac who is the seed counted for promise.

If it is not by natural descent but by faith in what God has promised, then genealogy is meaningless. Abraham was not a Jew until he believed God! In God's economy his people are those who believe, they alone are true Israel.

Abraham was never a Jew as the designation of "Jew" began as a word derived from the (tribe of) Judah which shortened is "Jew." True Israel is those from Isaac to Jacob whom God changed his name to Israel. The promise, Saul is saying, went to Isaac (not children of the flesh - Ishmael) then to Jacob (Israel.) These are the true descendants of Abraham. You quote the Scripture but don't understand what Saul is saying.

Rom 11:13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Jeremiah calls Israel an "Olive tree." In order to be a "wild" Olive tree one must be of the genus of this species and Gentiles are not even mentioned in the Law, Psalms, or Prophets as being an Olive tree. There is enough to understand Saul might be addressing Gentile proselytes who by association to the Olive tree by circumcision and inclusion into the Abrahamic Covenant are "wild" Olive tree. But hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles - saved or not saved - are not Israel nor Jeremiah's description of Israel as an olive tree. They would be considered a weed in God's eyes. The National symbol for Israel is the Olive tree and Gentiles do not come from the loins of Israel who are in God's covenant with the sign of circumcision as outward evidence of covenant with God. Gentiles who make vows, make sacrifice, pledge to live as a Jew and are circumcised can reasonable be considered a "WILD" Olive tree.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

The “you” are Gentiles and the “they” are genealogical Jews who have not believed. The “wild olive” branches are Gentiles grafted in through believing, and the natural branches are Jews who have not believed.

The National symbol of Israel is the Olive tree. Gentiles are not Israel nor are they even remotely called an Olive tree in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets. But through association and through circumcision and inclusion into the Abrahamic Covenant the case can be made that the "Gentiles" Saul is referencing are Gentile PROSELYTES as they would be present in the synagogues and the Jewish home churches and witnesses of the things God was doing in and to Israel as a result of the advent of Messiah and later, the Holy Spirit.

Gentiles are grafted into the covenant because the covenant has always be based on faith alone! If by faith it is not by clan or class! If by faith, it is by grace, forgoing any boasting that ‘I am a Jew, chosen by God’! To deny this is to deny the gospel, and to preach another gospel!

NONE of the covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, or New Covenants) have included in these covenants a requirement of faith. NONE. You're adding to the Bible things not there and coming up with error.

Christ died for the sins of the world, not just Jews!
Doug

Christ came as promised by God in the Hebrew Scriptures of Law, Psalms, and Prophets. Christ was sent as He said, ONLY to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. And why not? He is the fulfillment of the Jewish Covenants sent by God to redeem those in Covenant with God and as Ephesians says, "Christ died for His Church" and the Bride and Church are identified in Scripture as Israel.
God made no covenant with Gentiles not the seed of Gentiles.
At the Marriage Supper Israel is there through Covenant.
Gentiles are there through invitation (Matt. 22.)
God made no covenant with Gentiles nor any seed of Gentiles.
God has covenant with Israel and to and for Israel Messiah came and died as per Isaiah's prophecies for Israel (Isaiah 52-53.)

 

[TibiasDad]

NONE of the covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, or New Covenants) have included in these covenants a requirement of faith. NONE. You're adding to the Bible things not there and coming up with error.

This will, more than likely, be the last of my responses to this thread, as I think we have both said our piece throughly enough. Your opinion has totally disregarded the entire writings of Paul (formerly known as Saul), who unambiguously states that salvation is by grace, through faith in all his writings.

I find your gospel to be no gospel at all, and in many ways is akin to Calvinistic thought, that there are many who have no hope of salvation.

God’s purposes and desires are for the sake of all mankind, regardless of their genealogical origin. Ultimately, we all are from one singular “man”, who was neither Jew or Gentile, and to whom the promise was made that “the seed of the woman” would crush the head of the serpent and bring redemption for the offspring of Adam and Eve!

As John wrote, “He (Jesus) is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1John 2:2) It was not only for Jews, or those who were already saved at that point, but for all the sins of the “whole world”!


Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

This will, more than likely, be the last of my responses to this thread, as I think we have both said our piece throughly enough. Your opinion has totally disregarded the entire writings of Paul (formerly known as Saul), who unambiguously states that salvation is by grace, through faith in all his writings.

Yes, God's grace and Christ's faith. Dead men in trespasses and sin, like Lazarus, cannot exert or produce faith until Faith Himself appears and that is the Holy Spirit who APPLIES to the person to be saved that salvation bought by the Son on the cross at Calvary.

I find your gospel to be no gospel at all, and in many ways is akin to Calvinistic thought, that there are many who have no hope of salvation.

And I'm not offended but don't associate me with Calvin. I've never read nor studied Calvin and all my understanding of this "so-great salvation" has been taught me by God under the anointing using the Authorized Version and James Strong as my linguist.
The thing about there is those that "have no hope of salvation" falls upon the Sovereignty of God and the book of life of the lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world and whose names He wrote in that "book" (which isn't a literal book but Christ Himself.) If we are hidden in Christ, I'm sure our names are there, too, since He calls us to Himself and back to God by name to take our place in His body (our mansion).

God’s purposes and desires are for the sake of all mankind, regardless of their genealogical origin. Ultimately, we all are from one singular “man”, who was neither Jew or Gentile, and to whom the promise was made that “the seed of the woman” would crush the head of the serpent and bring redemption for the offspring of Adam and Eve!

If that was true there would be no Hebrew/Jewish Covenants and God would have made covenant with EVERYBODY. But He didn't. It's His salvation. Let Him give it to whomever He wills and let's not second guess the greatest Mind in all Eternity.

As John wrote, “He (Jesus) is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1John 2:2) It was not only for Jews, or those who were already saved at that point, but for all the sins of the “whole world”!
Doug

John wrote to the Jews as did all the New Covenant Jewish Christian writers did:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Jn 20:31.

It is a Hebrew/Jewish Covenant(s) with a Jewish Messiah who died for the identified Bride and Church of God who is Israel and after God brings in uncircumcised or circumcised non-covenant Gentiles then the Times of the Gentiles will end with the destruction of the Gentile nations - whether through asteroid/comet impact or through world war, the two Jewish witnesses sent to the House of Israel will prophesy using the Law, Psalms, and the Prophets (not James, Saul, or Peter) and with the blindness removed Israel will see whom they have pierced and mourn, and when God brings ALL NATIONS against His Chosen Israel - including Gentile Christians - Christ will return and fight against everyone set against Israel and defeat them all with a word and breath from His mouth and Israel will rejoice in their King-Redeemer and as Saul said, "all Israel shall be saved" is Good News for Israel.
If you're Gentile, not so good news.