Judaism is very messy.....

[atpollard]

That was funny (and a little sad).

---

ON THIS TOPIC:

Given what I know about Judaism [which is limited], the very concept of what Judaism is "like" [the Title of this Topic] is nonsensical. Reformed Judaism, Hasidic Judaism, Orthodox Judaism and Messianic Judaism are all Judaism and very little "alike". It is as nonsensical as describing what a "Christian" is like.

The OP wrings its hands about why Christanity appeals to Judaism as its source. While I am not qualified to speak 'Ex cathedra' for all Christianity , I know a 'little' about Judaism and a 'LOT' about why I care to learn a little about Judaism. So I am probably qualified to speak for ME and MY reasons.

I learned that among the First Century "thinking Jews" ... their version of our Academia ... there was a burning debate raging on about "which OT Laws were the most important". This debate makes an appearance in the Gospels when Jesus is asked "Which Commandment is the greatest?"

[Knowing this fact about the Historic Context, sheds a little light on those passages and events. That question was directed JUST for Jesus, it was a common question for any Rabbi in that time/place. Jesus was being called to weigh in on THE academic question of His day by EXPERTS IN THE LAW. They were taking the measure of the Christ as a Rabbi (teacher).]

There is a Hebrew phrase that I can never remember (it is a non-intuitive language from English) that means "comparison of equals". It is an annoying teaching technique employed by Jewish Rabbis way back then [they may still do it, what do I know about such things]. The gist is that the Teacher (Rabbi) identifies two verses with a common word. That word LINKS those two verses of scripture. Boom, that's it. He then leaves the students to figure out the rest for themselves. However, there are rules to this game: The verses expound on each other. The second verse teaches something important about the first verse.

So what does this have to do with anything?

Go back to THE burning question of the day, asked of Jesus by an EXPERT in the law: "Which is THE GREATEST Commandment?"
What was Jesus answer?

Jesus quoted TWO OT verses that EVERYONE in that community knew by heart. Duh, Jesus answered with a "comparison of equals" and left them to figure it out.

We (me) miss it because I don't have the books of Moses memorized like every Jewish boy over 10 years old did back then. I never heard of "comparison of equals" growing up, so I didn't know the rules. So I just thought Jesus listed the Top Two rules instead of the Top One rule.

That is NOT what Jesus did. The word that links those verses is LOVE. Love God and Love Neighbor. Jesus was saying that the SECOND verse was explaining the FIRST verse and together created the GREATEST COMMAND. [BOOM - mind blowing stuff]

The WAY you "love God with all your everything" is BY "loving your neighbor as yourself" ... and the only way to really be able to love strangers with that sort of love, comes from God ... from "loving God with all your everything". They are NOT two distinct commands, they are the ONE GREATEST COMMAND ... hopelessly intermingled and inseparable.

... and the only way to UNDERSTAND what Jesus said to that audience, is to 'get a clue' about what they all knew. [That means Judaism.]

So that is why I "appeal to Judaism as a source" ... it illuminates the NT teachings.

 

[360watt]

That was funny (and a little sad).

---

ON THIS TOPIC:

Given what I know about Judaism [which is limited], the very concept of what Judaism is "like" [the Title of this Topic] is nonsensical. Reformed Judaism, Hasidic Judaism, Orthodox Judaism and Messianic Judaism are all Judaism and very little "alike". It is as nonsensical as describing what a "Christian" is like.

The OP wrings its hands about why Christanity appeals to Judaism as its source. While I am not qualified to speak 'Ex cathedra' for all Christianity , I know a 'little' about Judaism and a 'LOT' about why I care to learn a little about Judaism. So I am probably qualified to speak for ME and MY reasons.

I learned that among the First Century "thinking Jews" ... their version of our Academia ... there was a burning debate raging on about "which OT Laws were the most important". This debate makes an appearance in the Gospels when Jesus is asked "Which Commandment is the greatest?"

[Knowing this fact about the Historic Context, sheds a little light on those passages and events. That question was directed JUST for Jesus, it was a common question for any Rabbi in that time/place. Jesus was being called to weigh in on THE academic question of His day by EXPERTS IN THE LAW. They were taking the measure of the Christ as a Rabbi (teacher).]

There is a Hebrew phrase that I can never remember (it is a non-intuitive language from English) that means "comparison of equals". It is an annoying teaching technique employed by Jewish Rabbis way back then [they may still do it, what do I know about such things]. The gist is that the Teacher (Rabbi) identifies two verses with a common word. That word LINKS those two verses of scripture. Boom, that's it. He then leaves the students to figure out the rest for themselves. However, there are rules to this game: The verses expound on each other. The second verse teaches something important about the first verse.

So what does this have to do with anything?

Go back to THE burning question of the day, asked of Jesus by an EXPERT in the law: "Which is THE GREATEST Commandment?"
What was Jesus answer?

Jesus quoted TWO OT verses that EVERYONE in that community knew by heart. Duh, Jesus answered with a "comparison of equals" and left them to figure it out.

We (me) miss it because I don't have the books of Moses memorized like every Jewish boy over 10 years old did back then. I never heard of "comparison of equals" growing up, so I didn't know the rules. So I just thought Jesus listed the Top Two rules instead of the Top One rule.

That is NOT what Jesus did. The word that links those verses is LOVE. Love God and Love Neighbor. Jesus was saying that the SECOND verse was explaining the FIRST verse and together created the GREATEST COMMAND. [BOOM - mind blowing stuff]

The WAY you "love God with all your everything" is BY "loving your neighbor as yourself" ... and the only way to really be able to love strangers with that sort of love, comes from God ... from "loving God with all your everything". They are NOT two distinct commands, they are the ONE GREATEST COMMAND ... hopelessly intermingled and inseparable.

... and the only way to UNDERSTAND what Jesus said to that audience, is to 'get a clue' about what they all knew. [That means Judaism.]

So that is why I "appeal to Judaism as a source" ... it illuminates the NT teachings.

Yeah, I heard about the Jewish concept of agency.

This is where the agent carrying a message, is effectively seen 'as the man themself'.

The agent is seen effectively as the owner of the message.

This is where Unitarian and JWs see Jesus doing things by the hand of the Father..but don't acknowledge this concept, that puts Jesus on equal footing with the Father.

Why did the Pharisees and Scribes want to stone Him?

I think it was because of them knowing this agency operation.

 

[D Koberstein]

So you refuse to honor Christ with the origins of The Religion that has His name?

It was church leaders who were first responsible for passing discriminatory laws against Jews, forcing them to wear a yellow star,
herding them together in ghettos, and even expelling them from their countries (to mention just a few of the indignities).
The Nazis merely renewed previously instituted anti-Semitic measures, but with an unprecedented vengeance, cruelty, and
cold calculated murderous hatred.

As Dennis Prager and Joseph Telushkin pointed out:

Christianity did not create the Holocaust----indeed, Nazism was ant-Christian----but it made it possible. Without Christian
antisemitism, the Holocaust would have been inconceivable......

Hitler and the Nazis found in medieval Catholic anti-Jewish legislation a model for their own, and they read and reprinted
Martin Luther's virulently anti semitic writings. It is instructive that the Holocaust was unleashed by the only major country
in Europe having approximately equal numbers of Catholics and Protestants. [Both traditions were saturated with Jewish-hatred]....

While it is true that many Nazis were anti-Christian (and that Nazism itself was anti-Christian), they were all, as the Jewish philosopher
Eliezer Berkovits has pointed out, the children of Christians.

This was the terrible end result of fifteen hundred years of church- sponsored or church -approved anti-Semitism. And, in perhaps
the greatest perversion in the history of religion, hatred of the Jews was carried out in the name of Jesus----himself a Jew to his
dying breath. How did a faith that was founded by a Jewish rabbi (and whose first adherents were all Jews) become so hostile
to the Jewish people?

Raul Hilberg charts the progression:
Since the fourth century after Christ there have been three anti-Jewish policies: [forced] conversion, expulsion, annihilation.
The second appeared as an alternative to the first, and the third emerged as an alternative to the second.....The missionaries
of Christianity had said in effect: You have no right to live among Jews. The secular rulers who followed proclaimed: You have
no right to live among us. The Nazis at last decreed: You have no right to live....
The German nazis, then, did not discard the past; they built upon it. They did not begin a development they completed it.
Shabbat Shalom שבת שלום

 

[praise_yeshua]

That was funny (and a little sad).

---

ON THIS TOPIC:

Given what I know about Judaism [which is limited],

Why did you write anything more than this? You don't know enough to even have an opinion. Yet, you proceed to try to express your thoughts as if they were no other conclusions to be drawn from the facts of Judaism.

So that is why I "appeal to Judaism as a source" ... it illuminates the NT teachings.

So much for inspiration. God is the source of the NT writings. BTW. When Jesus appealed to "loving your enemies"..... He was speaking from experience.

How is that going for you? It rather obvious that only ONE JEW has really loved His enemies. Jesus Christ loved His enemies. Yet here you are giving glory to others.

 

[dwight92070]

No Christianity was born out of Judaism.
The first church was Messianic Jewish
The apostles and disciples were Messianic
Jewish. You Gentiles came later and over time stripped the Jewishness from the Gospel.
Shalom

You are correct - no Christianity was born out of Judaism. Christianity was born out of Jesus Himself. The only One who stripped Jewishness from the Gospel was God Himself. He knew it would be a stumbling block for those who were following God, but then were deceived into thinking that their Jewishness, in some way, put them on a higher level than Gentile believers.

Abraham, the Father of all who have faith in Jesus, both Jew and Gentile, was not a Jew himself. Yet God promised him that He would bless all nations through Christ, which includes more Gentiles than there are Jews. God is able from rocks, to raise up children to Abraham. God is the One who, through Jesus, His Son, broke down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile, and racist people like you are not only attempting to rebuild that wall, but by doing that, you are giving Jews a bad name.

You are cultic. With you it's Jesus Plus Jewishness. With God it's only Jesus.

 

[Dizerner]

I'm more Jewish than any Rabbi ever was or could hope to be.

 

[Removed]

You are correct - no Christianity was born out of Judaism. Christianity was born out of Jesus Himself. The only One who stripped Jewishness from the Gospel was God Himself. He knew it would be a stumbling block for those who were following God, but then were deceived into thinking that their Jewishness, in some way, put them on a higher level than Gentile believers.

Abraham, the Father of all who have faith in Jesus, both Jew and Gentile, was not a Jew himself. Yet God promised him that He would bless all nations through Christ, which includes more Gentiles than there are Jews. God is able from rocks, to raise up children to Abraham. God is the One who, through Jesus, His Son, broke down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile, and racist people like you are not only attempting to rebuild that wall, but by doing that, you are giving Jews a bad name.

You are cultic. With you it's Jesus Plus Jewishness. With God it's only Jesus.

You the cultic ignorant person who ignores history. The Bible is a Jewish book, not a Gentile book. All the writers were Jewish not Gentiles. Jesus was an observant Jew not a Gentile. All his disciples were Jews . Salvation is of the Jews not Gentiles.
Your Christianity was born out of Judaism probably my guess is when the second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. I find some evangelical Christians are really ignorant of the Old and New Covenant and how they are connected. It would be to your advantage to study Church history and Biblical history to understand why you are so misguided in your thinking.
Shalom Aleichem

 

[Removed]

You are correct - no Christianity was born out of Judaism. Christianity was born out of Jesus Himself. The only One who stripped Jewishness from the Gospel was God Himself. He knew it would be a stumbling block for those who were following God, but then were deceived into thinking that their Jewishness, in some way, put them on a higher level than Gentile believers.

Abraham, the Father of all who have faith in Jesus, both Jew and Gentile, was not a Jew himself. Yet God promised him that He would bless all nations through Christ, which includes more Gentiles than there are Jews. God is able from rocks, to raise up children to Abraham. God is the One who, through Jesus, His Son, broke down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile, and racist people like you are not only attempting to rebuild that wall, but by doing that, you are giving Jews a bad name.

You are cultic. With you it's Jesus Plus Jewishness. With God it's only Jesus.

Yeshua was not a Christian. He was an observant Jew. That term didn't come into existence to well after Yeshua's resurrection. I believe it is only mention 3 times in the New Covenant. Your the racist Christian. I seen antisemitism in evangelical churches. It's done in a very subtle way. Jesus ministered to mostly Jews during his earthly ministry not Gentiles. Rabbi Paul spread the good news to the Gentiles with his missionary journeys. The Gentiles are grafted in to the Olive Tree of Israel and Messianic Jews.
When the partition in the Temple was torn in two during Messiah"s crucifixion that allowed the Jews to approach God without going through an earthly high priest. Because now we have a new high priest in Yeshua Hamashiach. Now these believing Jews and I included are now Messianic Jews .

Shalom

 

[atpollard]

deleted ... old news. [beating a dead horse]

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yeshua was not a Christian.

Yeshua was human. You should know your Hebrew/Aramaic. You know.... "ADAM".

He was an observant Jew. That term didn't come into existence to well after Yeshua's resurrection.

Abraham was never called a "Jew". The term "Jew" comes from "Judah" only a few centuries before the advent of Christ.

I believe it is only mention 3 times in the New Covenant. Your the racist Christian. I seen antisemitism in evangelical churches. It's done in a very subtle way.

Racism involves appealing to the superiority of a race. I believe you're doing that here.

Jesus ministered to mostly Jews during his earthly ministry not Gentiles.

Those people rewarded him by witnessing against Him and demanding His death.

Rabbi Paul spread the good news to the Gentiles with his missionary journeys. The Gentiles are grafted in to the Olive Tree of Israel and Messianic Jews.
When the partition in the Temple was torn in two during Messiah"s crucifixion that allowed the Jews to approach God without going through an earthly high priest. Because now we have a new high priest in Yeshua Hamashiach. Now these believing Jews and I included are now Messianic Jews .

Shalom

Funny. Paul isn't a Hebrew name at all. Do you even know that?

I wasn't grafted into a "Jewish Olive Tree". It is the root that bares me. Not "Rabbi Paul".

That Root is Jesus Christ and you dishonor Him.

 

[Dizerner]

Christ was not a Christian.

Lol, that's absolutely amazing.

I think he believed in himself.

 

[atpollard]

Christ was not a Christian.

Lol, that's absolutely amazing.

I think he believed in himself.

Now THAT is an interesting philosophical question:

• Since Jesus did obey the LAW perfectly (being the only one who did), was Jesus entitled to go to Heaven because of what He did (sinless life)?
• Since Jesus was the God-man and the perfect sacrifice whose blood was shed to obtain redemption for mankind (there is no other name by which men are saved), was Jesus entitled to go to Heaven because of who He was (the Lamb of God)?

???

 

[Dizerner]

was Jesus entitled to go to Heaven because of what He did (sinless life)?

I wasn't aware anyone ever doubted this.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yeshua was not a Christian. He was an observant Jew. That term didn't come into existence to well after Yeshua's resurrection. I believe it is only mention 3 times in the New Covenant. Your the racist Christian. I seen antisemitism in evangelical churches.

And it starts from behind the pulpit, not only with the congregants.

It's done in a very subtle way. Jesus ministered to mostly Jews during his earthly ministry not Gentiles

Absolutely. He even said He was Sent only for the lost sheep of Israel.

Rabbi Paul spread the good news to the Gentiles with his missionary journeys. The Gentiles are grafted in to the Olive Tree of Israel and Messianic Jews.

And if not careful we can and will be cut out. (IMO maybe we all should be)

When the partition in the Temple was torn in two during Messiah"s crucifixion that allowed the Jews to approach God without going through an earthly high priest. Because now we have a new high priest in Yeshua Hamashiach.

I have often wondered why the tearing of the veil has been basically ignored in "churches today" Very sad.

Now these believing Jews and I included are now Messianic Jews .

Of which I am very grateful for we can learn a lot from you. That is, those whose eyes and ears that have not been closed.

Shalom

 

[praise_yeshua]

Now THAT is an interesting philosophical question:

• Since Jesus did obey the LAW perfectly (being the only one who did), was Jesus entitled to go to Heaven because of what He did (sinless life)?
• Since Jesus was the God-man and the perfect sacrifice whose blood was shed to obtain redemption for mankind (there is no other name by which men are saved), was Jesus entitled to go to Heaven because of who He was (the Lamb of God)?

???

Jesus broke the Sabbath law. Jesus touched a leper. Jesus spoke against Moses and told "law keepers" they were in danger of the flames of hell.

This is nothing but a tradition of men. The law never made anyone righteous. It didn't make Jesus righteous. Such is offensive to the very Character of God.

 

[Duane]

I never knew Judaism is so very messy till I read the comments in this thread.

 

[atpollard]

I wasn't aware anyone ever doubted this.

Are you saying that Jesus was WORKS based and not FAITH based?
If Jesus HAD sinned, not only would WE have had no savior, but God the Son would have been damned?

Then Jesus is NOT our example, is he? [He walked by works and not by faith.]

No one doubted that Jesus lived a sinless life, but is THAT why God was pleased with Him? Is that why God raised Jesus from the dead? ... Or was God pleased and raised Jesus because Jesus was His Son?

Did the WORKS cause the LOVE or did the LOVE inspire the WORKS?

(You did a disservice by clipping off most of my post.)

 

[FreeInChrist]

Now THAT is an interesting philosophical question:

• Since Jesus did obey the LAW perfectly (being the only one who did), was Jesus entitled to go to Heaven because of what He did (sinless life)?
• Since Jesus was the God-man and the perfect sacrifice whose blood was shed to obtain redemption for mankind (there is no other name by which men are saved), was Jesus entitled to go to Heaven because of who He was (the Lamb of God)?
  ???

You mean, was He allowed to go back home? Where He came from?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I wasn't aware anyone ever doubted this.

The law giver doesn't have to worry about what He eats. That which goes into the mouth comes out the other end. It doesn't defile anyone.

 

[Dizerner]

Are you saying that Jesus was WORKS based and not FAITH based?

... of course, do you think Jesus need a savior to die for him, lol.

Idk man, I'm not tracking with you for some reason.

If Jesus HAD sinned, not only would WE have had no savior, but God the Son would have been damned?

Well thank our great Lord and Savior he didn't!

Then Jesus is NOT our example, is he? [He walked by works and not by faith

We do not emulate every aspect of Jesus, we are not to be worshiped, lol.

No one doubted that Jesus lived a sinless life, but is THAT why God was pleased with Him?

Yes, it was.

Jesus actually earned it.

Is that why God raised Jesus from the dead?

It specifically says it was why.

... Or was God pleased and raised Jesus because Jesus was His Son?

I would imagine that God's Son would live a sinless life, no?

Did the WORKS cause the LOVE or did the LOVE inspire the WORKS?

Without love we are nothing.

(You did a disservice by clipping off most of my post.)

No I didn't, please don't falsely accuse. I addressed the point.