Jesus taught Provisional Atonement

civic

civic

Well-known member
John 3:14-18
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Above we see those who looked upon the brass serpent in the wilderness were healed/ saved. Moses provided a way for those bit by the poisonous snakes to be healed and not die by looking upon the brass serpent. Jesus compares Himself in the same way to be saved by His provision for their sins through His atonement to be received by faith. In both cases faith saved them in the OT wilderness as is the case with Jesus in the NT.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
John 3:14-18
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Above we see those who looked upon the brass serpent in the wilderness were healed/ saved. Moses provided a way for those bit by the poisonous snakes to be healed and not die by looking upon the brass serpent. Jesus compares Himself in the same way to be saved by His provision for their sins through His atonement to be received by faith. In both cases faith saved them in the OT wilderness as is the case with Jesus in the NT.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
Provided we look, indeed. There was an old hymn, “Look and Live” that just popped into my mind!

Doug
 
civic said:
John 3:14-18
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Above we see those who looked upon the brass serpent in the wilderness were healed/ saved. Moses provided a way for those bit by the poisonous snakes to be healed and not die by looking upon the brass serpent. Jesus compares Himself in the same way to be saved by His provision for their sins through His atonement to be received by faith. In both cases faith saved them in the OT wilderness as is the case with Jesus in the NT.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

Praise God for the wisdom and gentleness of God.

Moses's staff destroyed the poisonous snakes of Satan. A King snake. King of even poisoned snakes..

Life instead of poison.

You would wonder why anyone would deny such things..
 
1 Timothy 2:1-6

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

As we see above the Apostle Paul says we are to pray for " ALL " people everywhere even for the " kings in authority" and then uses the same word in the same context of " ALL " people with Jesus giving His life as a ransom for all.

You cannot have ALL mean two different things in the context of the passage. That is once again being dishonest with the text and reading ones doctrine into the passage which is eisegesis.

I've been reading/studying ransom lately and came across this passage thus morning in my studies on ransom and decided to look at the passage " objectively " and as if its the first time reading the passage. And there is no way to be honest with the text and say ALL has one meaning in verse 1 and another meaning in verse 6. This is one continuous thought by Paul in the text above.

Some may not like the above comments but that is what the text is saying and I'm just being honest with the text and not reading my own personal theology into the text.

What are your thoughts/ideas about the " text " not your theology.

Thanks!

hope this helps !!!
 
Here is the famous calvinist John Gill :

Here is Gill on 1 Tim 2:1

be made for all men; not only for all the saints, for all the churches of Christ, and, ministers of the Gospel; nor only for near relations and friends, according to the flesh; but for all the inhabitants of the country and city in which men dwell, the peace and prosperity of which are to be prayed for; yea, for enemies, and such as reproach, persecute, and despitefully use the saints, even for all sorts of men,

Once again we can see the contradictions coming out since Jesus Ransom in the verse was for all people. There goes the " L " in tulip.

hope this helps !!!
 
Jesus died for all

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
Here is the famous calvinist John Gill :

Here is Gill on 1 Tim 2:1

be made for all men; not only for all the saints, for all the churches of Christ, and, ministers of the Gospel; nor only for near relations and friends, according to the flesh; but for all the inhabitants of the country and city in which men dwell, the peace and prosperity of which are to be prayed for; yea, for enemies, and such as reproach, persecute, and despitefully use the saints, even for all sorts of men,

Once again we can see the contradictions coming out since Jesus Ransom in the verse was for all people. There goes the " L " in tulip.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
The first generation of reformers held to an unlimited atonement. The change to a limited atonement began with Beza
 
civic said:
1 Timothy 2:1-6

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

As we see above the Apostle Paul says we are to pray for " ALL " people everywhere even for the " kings in authority" and then uses the same word in the same context of " ALL " people with Jesus giving His life as a ransom for all.

You cannot have ALL mean two different things in the context of the passage. That is once again being dishonest with the text and reading ones doctrine into the passage which is eisegesis.

I've been reading/studying ransom lately and came across this passage thus morning in my studies on ransom and decided to look at the passage " objectively " and as if its the first time reading the passage. And there is no way to be honest with the text and say ALL has one meaning in verse 1 and another meaning in verse 6. This is one continuous thought by Paul in the text above.

Some may not like the above comments but that is what the text is saying and I'm just being honest with the text and not reading my own personal theology into the text.

What are your thoughts/ideas about the " text " not your theology.

Thanks!

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...

If He wants all to be saved then why doesn't God just grant or give them repentance and belief?
 
Presby02 said:
Says the Bible nowhere.
Click to expand...
The bible reveals God leaves the choice to man

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NASB 2020) — 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (NASB 2020) — 11 “For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you could say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 14 On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it. 15 “See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, 16 in that I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, so that you may live and become numerous, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but allow yourself to be led astray and you worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and take possession of it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding close to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, so that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

It is your fatalism the bible does not speak of
 
TomL said:
The bible reveals God leaves the choice to man

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NASB 2020) — 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (NASB 2020) — 11 “For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you could say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 14 On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it. 15 “See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, 16 in that I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, so that you may live and become numerous, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but allow yourself to be led astray and you worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and take possession of it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding close to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, so that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

It is your fatalism the bible does not speak of
Click to expand...


No one says the choice is not actually made by man, determined by God. The Bible is quite clear. Belief, repentance is granted or given by God. If He desires the salvation of all then why not simply grant it to everyone. Tom does not and will not tell us.
 
Presby02 said:
No one says the choice is not actually made by man, determined by God. The Bible is quite clear. Belief, repentance is granted or given by God. If He desires the salvation of all then why not simply grant it to everyone. Tom does not and will not tell us.
Click to expand...
Sorry no the bible does not teach God determines the choice as the scriptures show

Your views are contrary to expressed will of God as seen in 1Timothy 2 as Civic posted
 
TomL said:
Sorry no the bible does not teach God determines the choice as the scriptures show

Your views are contrary to expressed will of God as seen in 1Timothy 2 as Civic posted
Click to expand...

Did He determined the choices of those in Acts 4?

This does not address my question. If God desires the salvation of all, and He is certainly powerful enough to make that happen, then why does He grant all repentance and belief??
 

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