Jesus is God, One with the Father

[FreeInChrist]

Note the asterisk (*) after FATHER in what you quoted. That was a link to the note at the bottom where I specifically mentioned “*Theologically, this word should probably be [GODHEAD], but I was keeping the word replacement simple and consistent.”. I had substituted “[GOD THE SON]” for “the Word” and “[GOD THE FATHER] for “God” every place those words appeared in the quoted verses (John 1:1-5,14). It was a simple, direct word substitution to make a point of comparison between the traditional Trinitarian understanding of John 1 and the convoluted reinterpretation of “the Word” needed to deny the Trinity.

I acknowledged that that specific use of “God” should be better described as “GODHEAD” than “[GOD THE FATHER]” precisely because the Son is not the Father (but both the Father and Son are “God”). However, I was “keeping the word replacement simple and consistent”.

I did notice that and I admit I still find it confusing. but tis only me, I am sure.

Yhe clearest understanding that I would see other then the actual wording would be
In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God , and Jesus was God.

Just ignore me.

 

[360watt]

I didn't get a response to this.. but will put it here..

It is sometimes put that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are separate beings.

I would have thought God is the one being..and the 3 are expressions/substances of Him.

Your thoughts?

 

[atpollard]

I didn't get a response to this.. but will put it here..

It is sometimes put that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are separate beings.

I would have thought God is the one being..and the 3 are expressions/substances of Him.

Your thoughts?

It is a mystery ... like REALLY.

The word "person" caries too much "independence" (as if the Father-Son_Spirit were not 100% united in purpose and fully ONE GOD), yet most alternatives that express the "unity" will then do injury to the "independence" that does exist (the Father is not the Son who is not the Spirit, they are 3 separate "actors" as we see in the Baptism of Jesus when the Son stands in the water, the Spirit descends through the air and the Father speaks from heaven all at the same time).

So 1 being (GOD) with 3 minds (acting in agreement). That is why the Athanasian Creed goes to such elaborate lengths to describe what it IS and what it IS NOT. This understanding is not what PEOPLE wanted or figured out ... it is just an admission of what Scripture reveals about God (Father, Son and Spirit).

Athanasian Creed​

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,​

neither blending their persons​

nor dividing their essence.​

For the person of the Father is a distinct person,​

the person of the Son is another,​

and that of the Holy Spirit still another.​

But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,​

their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.​

​

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.​

The Father is uncreated,​

the Son is uncreated,​

the Holy Spirit is uncreated.​

​

The Father is immeasurable,​

the Son is immeasurable,​

the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.​

​

The Father is eternal,​

the Son is eternal,​

the Holy Spirit is eternal.​

​

And yet there are not three eternal beings;​

there is but one eternal being.​

So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;​

there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.​

​

Similarly, the Father is almighty,​

the Son is almighty,​

the Holy Spirit is almighty.​

Yet there are not three almighty beings;​

there is but one almighty being.​

​

Thus the Father is God,​

the Son is God,​

the Holy Spirit is God.​

Yet there are not three gods;​

there is but one God.​

​

Thus the Father is Lord,​

the Son is Lord,​

the Holy Spirit is Lord.​

Yet there are not three lords;​

there is but one Lord.​

​

Just as Christian truth compels us​

to confess each person individually​

as both God and Lord,​

so [universal] religion forbids us​

to say that there are three gods or lords.​

​

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.​

The Son was neither made nor created;​

he was begotten from the Father alone.​

The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;​

he proceeds from the Father and the Son.​

​

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;​

there is one Son, not three sons;​

there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.​

​

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,​

nothing is greater or smaller;​

in their entirety the three persons​

are coeternal and coequal with each other.​

​

So in everything, as was said earlier,​

we must worship their trinity in their unity​

and their unity in their trinity.​

 

[civic]

You said " and [GOD THE SON] was [GOD THE FATHER*]

You make Jesus and the Father one.... That is not so they have always been separate. That is why for my paraphrasing .

yes that would technically be oneness but I don't think thats what he meant.

 

[civic]

I didn't get a response to this.. but will put it here..

It is sometimes put that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are separate beings.

I would have thought God is the one being..and the 3 are expressions/substances of Him.

Your thoughts?

Thats not a theologically or historic/orthodox position. God is One Being who is 3 Persons. Being is synonymous with essence, nature, substance. God is One in nature, substance, essence, being and 3 in Persons.

 

[civic]

It is a mystery ... like REALLY.

The word "person" caries too much "independence" (as if the Father-Son_Spirit were not 100% united in purpose and fully ONE GOD), yet most alternatives that express the "unity" will then do injury to the "independence" that does exist (the Father is not the Son who is not the Spirit, they are 3 separate "actors" as we see in the Baptism of Jesus when the Son stands in the water, the Spirit descends through the air and the Father speaks from heaven all at the same time).

So 1 being (GOD) with 3 minds (acting in agreement). That is why the Athanasian Creed goes to such elaborate lengths to describe what it IS and what it IS NOT. This understanding is not what PEOPLE wanted or figured out ... it is just an admission of what Scripture reveals about God (Father, Son and Spirit).

Athanasian Creed​

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,​

neither blending their persons​

nor dividing their essence.​

For the person of the Father is a distinct person,​

the person of the Son is another,​

and that of the Holy Spirit still another.​

But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,​

their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.​

​

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.​

The Father is uncreated,​

the Son is uncreated,​

the Holy Spirit is uncreated.​

​

The Father is immeasurable,​

the Son is immeasurable,​

the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.​

​

The Father is eternal,​

the Son is eternal,​

the Holy Spirit is eternal.​

​

And yet there are not three eternal beings;​

there is but one eternal being.​

So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;​

there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.​

​

Similarly, the Father is almighty,​

the Son is almighty,​

the Holy Spirit is almighty.​

Yet there are not three almighty beings;​

there is but one almighty being.​

​

Thus the Father is God,​

the Son is God,​

the Holy Spirit is God.​

Yet there are not three gods;​

there is but one God.​

​

Thus the Father is Lord,​

the Son is Lord,​

the Holy Spirit is Lord.​

Yet there are not three lords;​

there is but one Lord.​

​

Just as Christian truth compels us​

to confess each person individually​

as both God and Lord,​

so [universal] religion forbids us​

to say that there are three gods or lords.​

​

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.​

The Son was neither made nor created;​

he was begotten from the Father alone.​

The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;​

he proceeds from the Father and the Son.​

​

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;​

there is one Son, not three sons;​

there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.​

​

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,​

nothing is greater or smaller;​

in their entirety the three persons​

are coeternal and coequal with each other.​

​

So in everything, as was said earlier,​

we must worship their trinity in their unity​

and their unity in their trinity.​

probably my favorite of the creeds.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I didn't get a response to this.. but will put it here..

It is sometimes put that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are separate beings.

I would have thought God is the one being..and the 3 are expressions/substances of Him.

Your thoughts?

Many. Thoughts that is.

Before I go on I want to comment on this statement of yours.

"I would have thought God is the one being..and the 3 are expressions/substances of Him. "

And then I would like for you to read about Jesus' own Baptism.

Matt 3: 16-18

16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”
18Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Mark 1:10-12

10 Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him;
11 and a voice came out of the heavens: “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”
12 Immediately the Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness

Luke 3:21-22 ; 4:1

21 Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened,
22and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”

1Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness

So, we have 3 different accounts from 3 different people all relating His baptism included Himself, His Father and The Holy spirit... all separate....

Until that is clear to you then further discussion needs to wait.

But I will leave right now with the reminder that in Matt 28: 19 it was Jesus Himself who said " “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

If their was only one being, then this would not have been needed.

There are 3 individuals all with the title God. And some will say in the Godhead.....

 

[FreeInChrist]

yes that would technically be oneness but I don't think thats what he meant.

As he said I was wrong... you are right.... But it does read the way it says.

 

[360watt]

Thats not a theologically or historic/orthodox position. God is One Being who is 3 Persons. Being is synonymous with essence, nature, substance. God is One in nature, substance, essence, being and 3 in Persons.

This is also what I am thinking. I don't like the word 'person'.. but I'm saying the same thing

 

[FreeInChrist]

This is also what I am thinking. I don't like the word 'person'.. but I'm saying the same thing

That sometimes bothers me too... But what else? Spirits would make people think of things that go bump in the night. Things NEVER... I wrote that and the first thought to my mind was coathangers.

 

[civic]

This is also what I am thinking. I don't like the word 'person'.. but I'm saying the same thing

Person makes sense when you think of the Son, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

Christology declares that in the Incarnation the Son remains 1 Person who is Divine, not 2 persons. He has 2 natures, a human and Divine nature but is only One Person. God has One Divine nature hence we can say God is One as in nature, substance, essence, being etc...... Yet God is 3 in Persons. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

God is a Trinity of persons, a Tri-Unity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are the one God. Each Person has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are qualities or characteristics of personhood. The Trinity is in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance, essence, nature or being. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.

Jesus, the Son, is one Divine Person with two natures: Divine and Human. This is called the Hypostatic Union. The Holy Spirit is also Divine in nature and is self aware, the third person of the Trinity.

The word "person" is used to describe the three of the Godhead because the word "person" is appropriate. A person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say "you," "yours," "me," "mine," etc. Each of the three Persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.

 

[civic]

continued :

God is Love demands that God is more than 1 Person.

The god of the unitarians cannot know or experience love as a solitary person. That is impossible. It is an oxymoron. The only viable answer to Gods love and that He is love is for God to be Triune in nature which would explain why and how God is love. A god who is only a solitary person cannot know what love is as there is no one else experience and to know love. That god is void of love by nature.

God is a personal, relational being by His very essence or nature. There are roles within the Godhead that have to do with the tri-personal nature of His being. The Father sends the Son, The Son submits to the Father. The Holy Spirit speaks of and honors the Father and the Son. Jesus said I and the Father are one. We clearly see the relationship of the Triune Godhead in the 14th-16th chapters of John.

Now it is very interesting that when we begin with God(Trinity) we see that He has designed not only man, but the family and the Church to represent and reflect His very own nature. God has designed this order and is clearly seen back in Genesis 1-2.

When God created the first 6 days He declared everything "was good". We read the only time in creation where God said otherwise was when He created man (who was made in His very own image). He used the plural form by saying LET US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness.

But God did not stop there. He said it was NOT GOOD for man to be alone. Why did God say this ? Man was created to be a relational being just like God (trinity). God created woman so that man would not be alone as God is not alone. The two would become ONE just as the Father and the Son are ONE.

Man was to procreate and have a family. Within the family unit Man is the head of the woman. The woman submits to the man. The Son submits to the Father. The Holy Spirit honors both the Father and the Son. The children are to honor their Mother and their Father. This reflects the very nature of God.

Now the same is true of the Church. Christ is the Head of the body. The body consists of Leaders(elder, pastors, teachers etc...)and the flock. The leaders submit to Christ and the flock is to submit to the leaders.

In the above we see the family(husband, wife and children) and the Church(Christ,leaders and the flock) are all designed to reflect the triune nature of God by the relationships and order of these institutions.

God is love because He loves within His own nature. God could not love if He was only one person. God would be contradicting Himself if He was not self sufficient. God is Love means that He has this ability to love within Himself. This is only possible if He is a tri-personal God being the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

hope this helps !!!

 

[FreeInChrist]

Person makes sense when you think of the Son, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

Christology declares that in the Incarnation the Son remains 1 Person who is Divine, not 2 persons. He has 2 natures, a human and Divine nature but is only One Person. God has One Divine nature hence we can say God is One as in nature, substance, essence, being etc...... Yet God is 3 in Persons. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

God is a Trinity of persons, a Tri-Unity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are the one God. Each Person has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are qualities or characteristics of personhood. The Trinity is in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance, essence, nature or being. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.

Jesus, the Son, is one Divine Person with two natures: Divine and Human. This is called the Hypostatic Union. The Holy Spirit is also Divine in nature and is self aware, the third person of the Trinity.

The word "person" is used to describe the three of the Godhead because the word "person" is appropriate. A person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say "you," "yours," "me," "mine," etc. Each of the three Persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.

ok but there are 3 in the trinity and I have never thought of the Holy Spirit as a person....

This is what Search Assist says...

Yes, the Holy Spirit is often referred to as a person in Christian theology, emphasizing that He has personal attributes such as intellect, will, and emotions, distinguishing Him from an impersonal force. This understanding is supported by the use of masculine pronouns in Scripture, indicating His personhood within the Trinity.

However another syas... No. The Bible does not use the English theological word “person” the way later creeds do. The term developed in later theological language (like in the 4th-century debates). Scripture presents the Spirit acting personally — theology later described that as “person.”

 

[360watt]

ok but there are 3 in the trinity and I have never thought of the Holy Spirit as a person....

This is what Search Assist says...

Yes, the Holy Spirit is often referred to as a person in Christian theology, emphasizing that He has personal attributes such as intellect, will, and emotions, distinguishing Him from an impersonal force. This understanding is supported by the use of masculine pronouns in Scripture, indicating His personhood within the Trinity.

However another syas... No. The Bible does not use the English theological word “person” the way later creeds do. The term developed in later theological language (like in the 4th-century debates). Scripture presents the Spirit acting personally — theology later described that as “person.”

Yeah..its saying the same thing really..

The term person not like what we think of a separate individual disconnected from others..but the person nature of all 3.

This is why I don't really like the word person. It may be the best term..but makes me think of disconnected individuals

 

[civic]

ok but there are 3 in the trinity and I have never thought of the Holy Spirit as a person....

This is what Search Assist says...

Yes, the Holy Spirit is often referred to as a person in Christian theology, emphasizing that He has personal attributes such as intellect, will, and emotions, distinguishing Him from an impersonal force. This understanding is supported by the use of masculine pronouns in Scripture, indicating His personhood within the Trinity.

However another syas... No. The Bible does not use the English theological word “person” the way later creeds do. The term developed in later theological language (like in the 4th-century debates). Scripture presents the Spirit acting personally — theology later described that as “person.”

An old friend on another forum we use to be on together said this to which I agree- Mr Religion said:

My experience has been that focusing upon the Person of Christ is the best means of discussing the Trinity. If our Lord was fully divine and human then reconciling the Shema and other testimony of Holy Writ follows. Get folks thinking straight about who exactly was Jesus Christ and the rest seems to fall into place.

I usually start with: Our Lord was fully God and fully man in an indissoluble union whereby the second person of the Trinity assumed a human nature that cannot be separated, divided, mixed, or confused.

Via negativa, one can best understand this hypostatic union (together united in one subsistence and in one single person) by examining what it is not, thus from the process of elimination determine what it must be.

The hypostatic union is not:

1. a denial that Christ was truly God (Ebionites, Elkasites, Arians);
2. a dissimilar or different substance (anomoios) with the Father (semi-Arianism);
3. a denial that Christ had a genuine human soul (Apollinarians);
4. a denial of a distinct person in the Trinity (Dynamic Monarchianism);
5. God acting merely in the forms of the Son and Spirit (Modalistic Monarchianism/Sabellianism/United Pentecostal Church);
6. a mixture or change when the two natures were united (Eutychianism/Monophysitism);
7. two distinct persons (Nestorianism);
8. a denial of the true humanity of Christ (docetism);
9. a view that God the Son laid aside all or some of His divine attributes (kenoticism);
10. a view that there was a communication of the attributes between the divine and human natures (Lutheranism, with respect to the Lord's Supper); and
11. a view that Jesus existed independently as a human before God entered His body (Adoptionism).

I know you are aware of this, but for the benefit of the general public, the Chalcedonian Definition is one of the few statements that all of orthodox Christendom recognizes as the most faithful summary of the teachings of the Scriptures on the matter of the Incarnate Christ. All the statements above were contained the Definition. The Chalcedonian Definition was the answer to the many heterodoxies identified above during the third century.

Chalcedonian Creed (451 A.D)​

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

 

[amazing grace]

Chalcedonian Creed (451 A.D)​

"We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us."

The above Creed as other creeds are NOT sola scriptura nor tota scriptura. In fact the language and concepts cannot be found anywhere in scripture.....

• 'truly God and truly man',
• 'consubstantial [co-essential]'
• 'begotten before all ages'
• 'the Mother of God'
• 'acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeable, indivisibly, inseparably'.
• 'each nature.....in one Person and one Subsistence'

"and the Creed of the holy fathers has handed down to us" clearly not handed down by Jesus nor does it concern the Jesus the apostles spoke of.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel---not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to youj, let him be accursed. [Gal. 1:6-8]

 

[atpollard]

The above Creed as other creeds are NOT sola scriptura nor tota scriptura. In fact the language and concepts cannot be found anywhere in scripture.....

• 'truly God and truly man',
• 'consubstantial [co-essential]'
• 'begotten before all ages'
• 'the Mother of God'
• 'acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeable, indivisibly, inseparably'.
• 'each nature.....in one Person and one Subsistence'

"and the Creed of the holy fathers has handed down to us" clearly not handed down by Jesus nor does it concern the Jesus the apostles spoke of.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel---not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to youj, let him be accursed. [Gal. 1:6-8]

What is that to you ... you do not believe in Christ any more than a Muslim or Jewish believer does ... so the "CHRISTOLOGY" sub-forum means nothing to you. Just an opportunity to stop by and throw crap (as lesser primates are prone to do).

 

[amazing grace]

What is that to you ... you do not believe in Christ any more than a Muslim or Jewish believer does ... so the "CHRISTOLOGY" sub-forum means nothing to you. Just an opportunity to stop by and throw crap (as lesser primates are prone to do).

I do believe in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the descendant of Abraham, the lion from the tribe of Judah, the descendant of David, the man attested by God. Thanks.

 

[atpollard]

I do believe in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the descendant of Abraham, the lion from the tribe of Judah, the descendant of David, the man attested by God. Thanks.

Just like any good Muslim does.
He is just not “Emmanuel”, God incarnate, my savior.

Romans 10:9-10 [KJV]
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[amazing grace]

Just like any good Muslim does.
He is just not “Emmanuel”, God incarnate, my savior.

Romans 10:9-10 [KJV]
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Yes, Romans 10:9,10 I know it well!

But where does that say I am supposed to confess that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? where does that say that I must believe that God is a Triune being?

And here is another scripture whereby we will be saved:
And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” [Acts 16:29-31]
And then there is John 3:16 . . . Ephesians 2, etc.