civic
Active Member
The Bible never says :
God cannot die or that God cannot become man.
and death simply means the separation of the body from the soul/spirit.
hope this helps !!!
Jesus is God, One with the Father
- Thread starter civic
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God cannot die or that God cannot become man.
and death simply means the separation of the body from the soul/spirit.
hope this helps !!!
amazing grace
Active Member
Wouldn't this term, perichoresis also include the mutual indwelling of Father/Son in those who believe through the word?
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."
YHWH uses mediators. In speaking of the coming New Covenant God said: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord" ....... Just as YHWH is saying that the old covenant that he made previously when he took them by the hand out of the land of Egypt ---- Moses was the mediator through which YHWH accomplished that. The old covenant wherein the blood of goats and bulls was shed "But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." BUT now we have a better covenant ratified by the blood of Christ who offered himself as a ransom.........He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ----------- for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Another ambiguous verse ----- Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He has purchased with the blood of his own [Son].
Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends....... Thank you, Lord Jesus for your obedience in carrying out God your Father's plan of salvation!!
amazing grace
Active Member
True, the Bible never says that God cannot die......but the Bible does say God is immortal and by definition an immortal being cannot die . . . that's just the meaning of being immortal!!The Bible never says :
God cannot die or that God cannot become man.
and death simply means the separation of the body from the soul/spirit.
hope this helps !!!
Death is death. Death is described as sleep and those who sleep will be resurrected in the resurrection.
civic
Active Member
No since Father/Son is an eternal interdwelling and I’m not in the Father, Son or Holy Spirit, they are in Me.
He always said and did what He saw and heard the Father saying and doing. No man has that capability.
hope this helps !!!
amazing grace
Active Member
It seems John 17 says differently.....
He saw and heard God his Father through revelation ---- God spoke through his Son. In the same manner as the prophets saw and heard through revelation from God ---- God spoke through the prophets.
Thanks.
civic
Active Member
No you are misunderstanding what Jesus said. He is talking about unity and being one not interdwelling.
amazing grace
Active Member
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. [John 15:4,5]
No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life. [1 John 2:23-25]
civic
Active Member
That’s continued belief and obedience and bearing fruit. Try reading the context in both passages where Jesus and John explain what that means
amazing grace
Active Member
I understand what it is saying - we are to abide in the vine which is Jesus and Jesus in us in order to bear fruit because apart from him we can do nothing.
The word which we heard from the beginning should abide in us and as the word abides in us we too will abide in the Son and in the Father.
But you will keep objecting to what the scriptures are clearly saying . . . . that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me
Complete
Active Member
Hello there,
Romans 5:8 came into my mind this evening, and I wanted to record it somewhere, in a discussion concerning the deity of Christ: for it shout aloud the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God.
'But God commendeth His love toward us,
in that, while we were yet sinners,
Christ died for us.'
(Romans 5:8)
Praise His Holy Name!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Romans 5:8 came into my mind this evening, and I wanted to record it somewhere, in a discussion concerning the deity of Christ: for it shout aloud the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God.
'But God commendeth His love toward us,
in that, while we were yet sinners,
Christ died for us.'
(Romans 5:8)
Praise His Holy Name!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Complete
Active Member
'But if I tarry long,
that thou mayest know
how thou oughtest to behave thyself
in the house of God,
which is the church of the living God,
the pillar and ground of the truth.
And without controversy great
is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory.'
(1 Tim. 3:15-16)
Praise God!
that thou mayest know
how thou oughtest to behave thyself
in the house of God,
which is the church of the living God,
the pillar and ground of the truth.
And without controversy great
is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory.'
(1 Tim. 3:15-16)
Praise God!
amazing grace
Active Member
I don't see where it shouts aloud that the Lord Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God.
Who commended His love toward us? Who died for us? ----- This indicates two entirely different persons here.
God and His Messiah.
This is another verse that seems to have a textual variant indicated in the footnotes of most Bibles --- (ESV reads "He" in the verse) the footnote - 'some manuscripts God, others which' (ESV)
AI-------The main textual variant in 1 Timothy 3:16 concerns whether the original Greek reads "God was manifest in flesh" (Θεός, Theos) or "He who was manifest in flesh" (Hos), with later Byzantine manuscripts favoring Theos and earlier manuscripts supporting Hos (or the neuter Ho, meaning "which"), making it a key debate over Christ's deity, though most modern scholars lean towards "Hos", reflecting the grammatical agreement with "mystery" (mysterion). The difference arises from a scribal contraction (ΘΣ for Theos) potentially misread as OC (Hos) or vice versa, with later copying often inserting Theos for theological emphasis.
No uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eight or ninth century supports theos ---- all ancient versions presuppose 'who' or 'which' and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos. The reading theos arose either a) accidentally, through the misreading of ὁc as Θε or b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs, or with less probability to provide greater dogmatic precision. (Bruce M. Metzger, Textual commentary on the Greek New Testament, pp. 573-574)
Who came in the flesh? Jesus Christ
What are we to acknowledge? that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.......
atpollard
Active Member
What do you do to get around John 1?
- which is clear about the relationship between God, the Word and he who "became flesh" [Jesus]
amazing grace
Active Member
I don't do anything to get around John 1 ---- John 1:1c - the Word was God.
Who is the first usage of theos referring to?
Is it referring to the Father?
We know that the Father did not become flesh.
So is the second usage of theos meant in an equivalent sense or in a qualitative sense?
I see it as in a qualitative sense - 'what God was, the Word was' --- theos describes the qualities of the Word without signifying any equivalence. The Word was the full expression of God or the Word fully expressed God ---- this expression of God became flesh, embodied in a human being --- and dwelt among us and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
That is how I understand John 1 and it doesn't contradict other scripture in which God says he is not a man........
It keeps consistent the relationship of God the Father and his only Son who is at the Father's side and has made him (God, aka the Father) known.
atpollard
Active Member
What is a "full expression of God" that eternally coexists with God ("In the beginning"; "was with God"), creates all things, and becomes a man?
amazing grace
Active Member
God's own expression is with him - the expression of who he is - is with him just as my expression - the expression of who I am is WITH ME. Why did God create? Did he want an ordered creation wherein he could fellowship with his created beings? Did he want a ordered creation in which he could express his love, his compassion, his mercies, his grace, his truth, his grace, his faithfulness, etc.
All these characteristics that God possessed became flesh, embodied in the man, Jesus Christ, the only Son from the Father which is how Jesus made known the Father aka God.
HIS WORD WAS IN THE BEGINNING>>>>>HIS WORD WAS WITH HIM>>>>>IOW NOT SEPARATE FROM HIM ---- His word created all things GOD SPOKE creation into BEING.
atpollard
Active Member
Let's try that on for size and replace God with me [I always wanted to be a megalomaniac]
[John 1:1-5, 14] 1 In the beginning was [MY EXPRESSION], and [MY EXPRESSION] was with [ATPOLLARD], and [MY EXPRESSION] was [ATPOLLARD]. 2 [MY EXPRESSION] was in the beginning with [ATPOLLARD]. 3 All things came into being through [MY EXPRESSION], and apart from [MY EXPRESSION] not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In [MY EXPRESSION] was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it. ... 14 And [MY EXPRESSION] became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw [MY EXPRESSION'S] glory, glory as of the only [Son] from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Sounds a little schizophrenic to me.
I am going to stick with the plain reading of GOD and the WORD at two distinct "persons" (in quotes because they are both eternal and creator, so not "people" like us but "other" like "יְהֹוָה").
However, thank you for taking the time to explain your perspective. It was illuminating.
amazing grace
Active Member
Well, that's a little ridiculous and not meant to be read into the scripture in that manner.Let's try that on for size and replace God with me [I always wanted to be a megalomaniac]
[John 1:1-5, 14] 1 In the beginning was [MY EXPRESSION], and [MY EXPRESSION] was with [ATPOLLARD], and [MY EXPRESSION] was [ATPOLLARD]. 2 [MY EXPRESSION] was in the beginning with [ATPOLLARD]. 3 All things came into being through [MY EXPRESSION], and apart from [MY EXPRESSION] not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In [MY EXPRESSION] was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it. ... 14 And [MY EXPRESSION] became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw [MY EXPRESSION'S] glory, glory as of the only [Son] from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Sounds a little schizophrenic to me.
I am going to stick with the plain reading of GOD and the WORD at two distinct "persons" (in quotes because they are both eternal and creator, so not "people" like us but "other" like "יְהֹוָה").
However, thank you for taking the time to explain your perspective. It was illuminating.
That's the problem already with John 1:1 ---- John 1:14 is read into John 1:1 before the word even becomes flesh.
Tradition is read into and replacing "Word" with either Son or Jesus. In the beginning was Jesus (the Son) and Jesus (the Son) was with God and Jesus (the Son) was God . . . . Jesus was not literally in the beginning except in the foreknowledge and plan of God. Jesus did not exist until he was miraculously conceived in the womb of Mary.
It's not to meant to be read into the scripture ------ We don't replace words within scripture we understand them in the light of how they are written and what they would mean to the people in that culture and time.
The Trinity itself sounds a little schizophrenic to me ---- two minds and two wills in one person? An immortal and a mortal person at the same time? A person who knows everything yet also a person who doesn't know everything? A person who is all powerful yet also a person who has to be given authority and power? Oh well, it is what it is.
atpollard
Active Member
Just for the record, that is the HYPOSTATIC UNION (Jesus is FULLY man and FULLY God) rather than having anything to do with the Trinity (One God, eternally existing in 3 persons). Modalism (which argues that GOD left heaven to become a man and returned to heaven) - only 1 God that wears different "hats" - has none of the issues with the HYPOSTATIC UNION that you object to. It makes JESUS "fully God" wearing a man-shaped puppet (no true humanity).
It is just contrary to Apostolic scripture.
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atpollard
Active Member
The Word predates Jesus ... but coexists with "God" and as "God". Genesis 1 is clear that God is the creator of all things. John 1 is clear that the WORD is the creator of all things ... the word was God . John is also clear that the word was WITH God (making it separate from God ... somehow "God and God" together as "WE are ONE GOD. Even back in Genesis: "Let US make mankind in OUR image - male and female." Plural GOD creates plural mankind that becomes "one flesh".
God laid down the hints right from the start. Genesis 1 uses a plural name for God and both singular and plural pronouns. God is one and more than one from the very first words that God gave us. It seems folly to ignore all that for a good human explanation of what God "really meant".
