101G
Active Member
so we can take this as an excuse to not answer? thought so. a simple yes or no you cannot answer. ........... (smile)... lol, lol, lol,
101G.
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
101G.
Runningman
Active Member
If you aren't going to answer my questions then I won't answer yours. It's as simple as that. If you answer my questions I'll answer yours. It's very easy. Why you didn't answer my last question? You playing 101 Games?
101G
Active Member
101G
Active Member
To all,
the Lord Jesus is God almighty in flesh, now risen .... in Glorified flesh. this is the ECHAD in perfect view.
Godhead Question, Revelation 4:2 "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Revelation 4:3 "And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald."
ONE SITS ON THE THRONE, and one stands before the throne, Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."
is the PERSON who sits on the throne is this the same one PERSON who stands before the throne..... read both scriptures carefully. THINK BEFORE YOU ANSWER.
101G
the Lord Jesus is God almighty in flesh, now risen .... in Glorified flesh. this is the ECHAD in perfect view.
Godhead Question, Revelation 4:2 "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Revelation 4:3 "And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald."
ONE SITS ON THE THRONE, and one stands before the throne, Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."
is the PERSON who sits on the throne is this the same one PERSON who stands before the throne..... read both scriptures carefully. THINK BEFORE YOU ANSWER.
101G
You have completed missed the meaning here. As usual..with others you aren't going into the scriptures deeply.
Jesus was effectively saying...'you don't know what you are saying...I am good..more than good'
He was not denying His diety He was challenging them in what they thought of Him.
The Pharisees are the ones who were calling Him things like 'good teacher'.
Jesus was effectively saying 'I am actually good..even more so.. you don't know what you are saying ... why not call me like the Pharisees do?'
This is not a denial of diety..it's a challenge to who He was talking to ..to see He is GOOD to the supreme!
He is saying it is as you say.. even more so.. you don't know what you are saying.
Not if you read these text
John 1:1–5 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.
John 17:5 (NASB 2020) — 5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.
He did say Jesus was his God
John 20:28–29 (NASB 2020) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
And Jesus approved
Later versions discovered sharps rule
Granville Sharp’s rule, Jesus Christ is clearly identified as both “God” and “Savior,” another example of the Bible’s teaching of the deity of Christ. The grammatical construction of the Greek makes it plain: definite article + singular noun + copulative conjunction + singular noun = the same person
Sorry modern version differ
Titus 2:13 (UASV) — 13 Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Greek grammarians agree
THIS INTERPRETATION HAS THE SUPPORT OF A.T. ROBINSON, P.W. SCHMIEDEL, MOULTON, BLASS DEBRUNNER, DANA AND MANTEY, BRUCE METZGER, REYMOND ETC
2 Peter 1:1 (ESV) — 1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Granville Sharp's rule Granville Sharp's Rule is a grammatical principle applied to the translation of New Testament Greek whereby the deity of Christ is explicitly affirmed. This is specifically associated with the translation of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1. ............. NASB -- "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." The same sense is also seen in NIV and ESV. In the above translations, the first (KJV) implies a reference to two persons, while the second (applying the Granville Sharp rule) sees the reference to one person who is both God and savior. The same contrast may be seen in 2 Peter 1:1:• KJV -- "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." • NASB -- "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ." Statement of the rule"The following rule by Granville Sharp of a century back still proves to be true: `When the copulative KAI connects two nouns of the same case, if the article HO or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person.'" (A Manual Of The Greek New Testament, Dana & Mantey, p. 147)"Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person." - James White The basic formula (in the Greek word order) may be seen in this manner:• Article (ho) + noun1 + and (kai) + noun2 Granville Sharp's rule says that since the definite article (ho, or its variant) precedes only the first noun and not both, then the reference is to one person -- this being the case in the verses quoted above.
There is no queen in Hebrews 1:8-12
Hebrews 1:8–12 (ESV) — 8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; 11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, 12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
In the Old Testament the bolded section was ascribed to YHWH
In the new - Jesus Christ
Jesus is both God and Lord
And He laid the foundation of the earth
Showing he was not a thing contrary to your claim
That is contradictory So then your proof text is worthless
Runningman
Active Member
The Bible is a Unitarian's book so I take pleasure when you quote any verse or passage. I could only wish we had the time and space to just post the entire Bible and go through it all from Genesis to Revelation.
However, while you did quote Scripture, your commentary reflects an inaccurate understanding of it.
Beginning with Revelation 5:8-14 you should observe that in verse 8, around the throne is where the the living creatures and the elders are. Verse 13 refers to "Him who sits on the throne" and "the Lamb" showing distinction between the throne of God and the throne of the Lamb. Remember where in verse 8 it says that around the throne is where the living creatures and elders are? Verse 14 says the elders fell down and worshipped. So where they fell down was before the throne of God, and not the Lamb. They were worshipping God the Father.
Runningman
Active Member
That can't be it. Let's try this angle. If you said that there is none good except God alone, wouldn't you, in effect, be denying that you are God? The common sense, plain language, understanding of what Jesus said is he isn't God. Why do you apply a different standard to Jesus on this matter when he never even directly said he's God?
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Adherent
Active Member
You have it right!
Runningman
Active Member
Read more of the context. John 1:1 doesn't mention Jesus' name so what you are presenting in your thesis is an interpretation of your beliefs, not Scripture. Let's be clear about this much. In John 1:2, the Word was with God therefore in verse 3 all things came into being through the previously mentioned God which would not be the Word. Verse 4 says in Him is the Light of of mankind and then in John 1:30 John the Baptist said Jesus is a man.
Don't stop at verse 5. Keep reading. Luke 3:23 says that Jesus began his ministry at about the age of 30 years old and then in John 1:9 it says "The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world..." referring to the present tense. Since the true Light was coming into the world when Jesus was already 30 years old then Jesus isn't the true Light John 1 is referring to. If you will just take the time to study you will see that the Word in John 1 is not literally God. There is no one in Genesis named the Word with God or anywhere else in the Old Testament or New Testament. No one repeated it either. John called the Word an it, a thing, in 1 John 1:1-3 and demonstrated he didn't believe Jesus is God in Acts 4:24-27 when he and Peter prayed to God and mentioned Jesus as God's servant.
Jesus was referring to the glory he had with God in God's plan and foreknowledge since Jesus was only "now" being glorified with that glory. After that, he gave that glory to the disciples. It does not refer to God's exclusive glory, but rather the glory God gives to others. God does not share His exclusive glory with anyone, but he gives glory to those who were predestined to have it.
John 17
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—
Romans 8
30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.
Jesus and Thomas are both gods according to what Jesus said John 10:34-36. They are all elohim, but Jesus' God and Thomas' God is the Father.
John 20
17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”
Jesus said Thomas is not blessed for believing after seeing.
The GS rule didn't exist in Greek nor is it a real rule in English grammar. It was invented by a Trinitarian to help bolster his beliefs, but it doesn't exist in every English translation. It simply a rule created for dogmatic purposes.
Modern Bibles also prove that God and Jesus aren't the same person.
Titus 2:13 (ASV)
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:13 (New American Bible)
as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ,
Titus 2:13 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
While we look for the blessed hope and the revelation of the glory of The Great God and Our Lifegiver, Yeshua The Messiah,
The GS rule isn't a valid argument. It's not even a real rule in English grammar so that reads like a strawman. Please learn English grammar, not made up rules that didn't even exist in the original Greek text.
Runningman
Active Member
So Jesus was wrong then?
Matthew 25
23His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master!’
Runningman
Active Member
There's a queen in Psalm 45 where the author of Hebrews quoted from. The entire context in Psalm 45 relates to the king there. Can't throw the baby out with the bathwater as much as that would be convenient for you. So Hebrews 1:8 wasn't even originally about Jesus. Since the original king in Psalm 45:6 isn't God Almighty then neither is Jesus.
Keep reading. God has a God who needed to be anointed ABOVE his companions? No, because God is already above all according to Scripture.
Don't lose critical thinking for the sake of religious dogma my friend.
Hebrews 1
9You have loved righteousness
and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
above Your companions with the oil of joy.”
Again there is no Queen in Heb 1:8
Hebrews 1:8–12 (NIV) — 8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” 10 He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”
The companions are angels
Nope. Jesus was not wrong. he was pointing out the man's inconsistency
He should have recognized that because only God is good and Jesus is good then he must be God
Lets see
John 1:1–18 (NIV) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
John contradicts you
You should have followed your own advise
John identified Christ
John 1:19–30 (NIV) — 19 Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20 He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.” 21 They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.” 22 Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ ” 24 Now the Pharisees who had been sent 25 questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27 He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.” 28 This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
Eisegesis
Nothing is stated about God's plan and foreknowledge and his glory was before the world began
John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
101G
Active Member
FIRST BIG MISTAKE, there is only "ONE" throne. listen, Revelation 4:2 "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Revelation 4:3 "And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald."
ONE PERSON, ONE THRONE.... (smile)
The Lamb stands before his throne, and as well .... sitting on his throne.
now, if you say the Father sits on the throne. 101G has only one question for you. "Who gave the Father POWER", book chapter and verse please.
because, the one who sits on the throne was given "POWER". see Revelation 4:11
now, once more, only ONE THRONE.... Listen, Revelation 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." ...... lol, lol, lol, ONE THRONE ONLY.
Runningman
Active Member
Again... Hebrews 1:8 is quoted from Psalm 45:6, yes? Then the original context of Psalm 45 needs to be considered. This is very basic scholarly diligence and foundational to rightly dividing Scripture. The human king with a queen in Psalm 45 is not God Almighty. I hope we agree on that much. When the author of Hebrews transferred Psalm 45:6 to Jesus, he was not calling Jesus God Almighty. That doesn't even make sense. He's referring to Jesus as perhaps a god with a little g who has a God.
There is more than one valid way to translate these verses and your premise doesn't match the context. Trinitarianism doesn't assert that God had companions to be anointed above like Hebrews 1:9 says anyway. If anything, you have only provided a strong argument to reject Trinitarianism.
Runningman
Active Member
So you have options here then. Either God along isn't good as Jesus already said or there are different senses of the word good that are more nuanced than our english. Yes, this is the case. Jesus spoke of the intrinsic goodness of God as opposed to himself.
God is the source of all goodness and the standard of all goodness. Jesus learned all of his goodness from God and as Immanuel he didn't inherently know the difference between good and evil inherently.
Read Isaiah 7 and you'll understand.
Isaiaih 7
14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel. 15By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good, He will be eating curds and honey.
