Only a Modalist would argue with you. So stop with these strawmen. You're barking up the wrong tree.
John 1:3 describes in more detail how creation occured, totally in line with the verses you mentioned. The universe was created by the Father through the Uncreated Word of God.
Wonderful Trinitarian verses. The universe was created through the Uncreated Word of God.
It explicitly says the God the Word is with is The God. Means the Word is not The God. John isn't a modalist, he's a Christian.
So the Word is not The God or the Creator. End of story.
3 persons. #1 God, #2 Word, #3 Holy Spirit within the Godhead. Each with their own duties.
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Again, only a modalist will argue with you on that. Stop with the strawmen.
Also, "the Word was God" by nature as stated by John 1:1. That proves Trinitarianism. End of story.
This is the way your argument reads:
Funny. You are trying to mix in other heresies so that your heresy does not stand out. It seems you took a break to learn new Guerilla warfare tactics.
Correct.
Wrong. It would have been modalism if John had said that the Word was the God. He didn't say that as you noted so he's not a modalist.
"God with The God" isn't a Trinitarian statement. In Trinitarianism, the Trinity is the god. So in other words, John 1:1 would read like "The Word was with The Trinity" if Trinitarian theology was imposed onto the verse. It results in another fatal theological error where the Word is once again outside of the Trinity and with the Trinity and thus not a member of the Trinity.
No idea what you're talking about. I am just talking about Christianity.
Please post a verse where Jesus, the Word, or Son is explicitly said to be the Creator if that's what you believe.
John 1:3
Is Jesus considered the Creator in Christian theology? OverviewJesus is regarded in Christian theology as fully God and fully man, sharing eternal essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Central to this belief is the teaching that Jesus was active in the work of creation. Multiple passages throughout the New Testament attest that Jesus was not merely present at the beginning but instrumental in bringing all things into existence. This entry explores the biblical and historical foundations for this view, explains its significance, and addresses common questions surrounding the idea that Jesus is considered the Creator. Scriptural Foundation Several key texts in the New Testament explicitly teach that creation came about through Jesus: 1. John 1:1-3: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.” In this passage, Jesus is identified as the “Word” (Greek: Logos). His divine nature and creative role are underscored by the explicit statement that “all things were made” through Him. ESPECIALLY.......... 2. Colossians 1:16: “For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.” This verse confirms that creation in its entirety, both physical and spiritual, derives its existence from Jesus. The phrase “through Him and for Him” shows not only His agency in creation but also His ultimate ownership and purpose regarding all created things. 3. Hebrews 1:2: “But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” Here, the Son (Jesus) is the instrument through which God created the universe. The broader context of Hebrews affirms Christ's superiority over angels and declares His divine prerogative in upholding and sustaining creation (Hebrews 1:3). These texts consistently indicate that Jesus is not a created being but rather the One who brought creation into existence. They also align with Old Testament passages that speak of God as the sole Creator (e.g., Genesis 1:1). Consistency with Old Testament Monotheism Christian theology emphasizes strict monotheism: there is only one God. The recognition of Jesus as Creator does not undermine God’s oneness but is reconciled within the doctrine of the Trinity. Passages such as Isaiah 44:24, in which God declares He is the Lord who made “all things,” are not in conflict with the New Testament claims. Instead, they illustrate that the creative act of the one God is expressed through the persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:1-2; John 1:1-3). Early Church Perspectives From the earliest centuries, prominent Christian teachers affirmed Jesus’ role in creation: • Justin Martyr (2nd century): Referred to Jesus as the pre-existent Logos through whom God created the world. • Irenaeus of Lyons (2nd century): Asserted that Jesus, as God incarnate, is the maker of heaven and earth, upholding an unbroken commitment to monotheism. • Tertullian (late 2nd-early 3rd century): Spoke of the Son as “the visible form” of the invisible God, emphasizing His work in the Creation narrative. These early witnesses show a unanimous belief that Jesus was not merely a prophet or teacher but fully divine and active in Creation. Each of these fathers highlighted the continuity between Old Testament monotheism and the New Testament’s revelation of Christ as the Creator. Archaeological and Manuscript Evidence Early New Testament manuscripts, such as Papyrus 66 (circa AD 200) and Papyrus 75 (late 2nd/early 3rd century), contain portions of the Gospel of John, including John 1:1-18. These texts confirm that the link between Jesus and creation (John 1:3) has remained intact since the earliest copyist traditions. Even among various manuscript families, there is strong consistency regarding this passage. Findings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls (though primarily Old Testament texts) affirm the accuracy with which Scripture was transmitted in the centuries before Christ. Such historical and archaeological discoveries support the reliability of the biblical witness, including the New Testament’s claims about Jesus as Creator. Doctrinal Significance Recognizing Jesus as the Creator has profound theological implications: 1. Divine Identity If Jesus created the universe, then He shares the same divine nature as Yahweh. John 1:1 declares His eternal existence and unity with the Father. This identity is crucial for understanding the full scope of His authority, as only the Creator has ultimate lordship over creation. 2. Authority and Worship Since Jesus is Creator, He is worthy of worship. Passages throughout the New Testament (e.g., Philippians 2:9-11; Revelation 5:12-13) point to the rightful adoration offered to Christ. Worship of a created being would be idolatry, but worship of the Creator is both appropriate and commanded. 3. Redemption and Re-creation Scripture depicts salvation as not just deliverance from sin but as a re-creation. The deity of Christ ensures that the One who made all things can also renew and restore them (2 Corinthians 5:17). Jesus, the Creator, is uniquely capable of redeeming His creation from the curse of sin and death. 4. God’s Self-Revelation As God Incarnate, Jesus reveals who God is (John 14:9). If He is the very Creator, He stands as the perfect representation of God’s nature, both in creative power and in moral holiness. Philosophical and Behavioral Considerations From a philosophical standpoint, attributing creation to Jesus addresses questions about the cosmos having an intelligent, purposeful origin. Recognizing Jesus as Creator provides a basis for meaning, morality, and personal accountability. If the universe has a personal source, individuals find both a reason to value creation and a foundation for purposeful living. Behaviorally, viewing Jesus as the Creator can affect how one treats others (in the image of God) and how one cares for the environment (a reflection of divine creative handiwork). It also reorients personal priorities toward honoring Christ as the ultimate authority in all areas of life. Common Questions and Clarifications 1. How can there be one Creator if Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are distinct persons? The doctrine of the Trinity teaches that God is one in essence but three in person. The Father, Son, and Spirit share the same divine being, so there is no contradiction in saying that the one God created all things through the Son in the power of the Holy Spirit. 2. Do biblical references to Jesus’ creation undermine the Father’s role as Creator? Not at all. Scripture describes the Father as the source and the Son as the agent of creation. Both are fully God. The Father initiates, and the Son carries out creation (1 Corinthians 8:6). The Spirit likewise “hovered over the surface of the waters” (Genesis 1:2). 3. If Jesus is eternal, how could He become incarnate? The incarnation represents the eternal Son of God taking on human flesh (John 1:14). His deity remained intact; He never ceased to be the Creator. Rather, He added humanity to His divine nature, enabling Him to accomplish redemption on behalf of humanity. Conclusion Christian theology consistently upholds that Jesus is considered the Creator. Key scriptural passages like John 1, Colossians 1, and Hebrews 1 explicitly affirm His active role in bringing all things into existence. Historically, the early church writers likewise taught this truth, aligning it with the Old Testament’s monotheism and underscoring the divine identity of Christ. In considering Jesus as Creator, believers find a powerful basis for worship, purpose, and hope: the same God who made the universe also redeems it. Thus, the Christian scriptural witness, from the earliest manuscripts to the comprehensive teaching of the New Testament, presents a unified testimony that Jesus is indeed the Creator, fully God, and the One through whom all things hold together. |
I know you do not understand these things and mistake your view as if it were Chrisitianity. That is why I posted my point. Glad I could clarify that for you.
You have difficulty making a distinction between Person and Nature.
I note that it is good for people to read scriptures. Those can help them follow along with teachings on Sunday or in Bible studies. They may even detect some points obviously wrong. However, when feeling like the reading is leading them to some giant change of doctrine, they would not likely be equipped to evaluate scripture properly nor would they have the broad consideration of the scriptures and exposition of them sufficient to identify a proper new interpretation.
I knew this was coming, sooner or later, after every avenue to a Biblical trinity has been exhausted. Whether by context, grammar, or any explicit descriptions or statements about a trinity, like those before you, you inevitibly must lean on theories and opinions. There is no "God is a nature" in the Bible. The only reason anyone would want to de-person God and convert Him into a nature is if they needed to distribute it amongst persons to create the illusion of shared deity.
I knew that it would not be beneath you to take shots at the Greek Language.
Nobody said "God is a nature". Stop making up stuff. You love creating strawmen which is a nasty habit of yours.
Wasn't it you who said the following:
So now you're going to backtrack on everything you said such as Greek has the ability to show nature and that John is saying the Word is of the same essence as God???
