101G
Well-known member
Not a copy, but the ECHAD of one person in the EQUAL SHARE of himself in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK. just as Genesis 1:1 clearly states.
101G
Isaiah and the trinity
- Thread starter TomL
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101G
7xLightray
Member
What does "image" mean in Heb 1:3 "image of his person"?
The word in Heb 1:3 "image of his person," is the word: charaktēr G5481, which does mean: "an exact copy." Which means an exact copy of His person. Which is not the same person, but a copy of that person.
I do not know of the word "ECHAD" in Gen 1:1, but there is one in Gen 2:24; two persons come together and make one flesh, but are two beings!
101G
Well-known member
GINOLJC, to all
"image of his person"? the EXPRESS, or the Exact same person in which H259 ECHAD explain clearly. Listen to the definition of H259 ECHAD,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258
Now, let's examine this definition. if #1 is correct then the bible must be in ERROR, for as you said, the "in Gen 2:24; two persons come together and make one flesh, but are two beings!" that's for humans, in which ONE creature became two creatures, now with God if one follows your example, then there had to be two being in the beginning, and God is ONE being. so that want work. also if one being was to come in flesh and only existed when in flesh, then that being is not God. now that only LEAVE one in the beginning, but H259 ECHAD do not say this.
so, let's examine your IMAGE. a IMAGE do not exist without a source. God is Spirit, and in the beginning God had no flesh bone and blood. well that leave your "person" correct. is a person an IMAGE that is manifested without a body? no, for character is abstract, only when a body, (concrete) can a character be manifested. so in Hebrew 1:3 the Image is the Person, not a separate person, but the same person Manifested. because the character, or the characteristics can be copied, but is not the person, foe Hebrew 1:3 states the EXPRESS IMAGE of his person. and that term EXPRESS states EXACT, meaning it's the same one person.
example, when someone act, or copy the devil ways or characteristics is a son of the devil, but is not the devil himself. or vice versa with God. now if the person is the Express Manifestation in flesh then it's that person. and no where in the bible where the devil came in flesh, if so, please post the scripture to nthat effect.
so your assessment is INCORRECT, try again.
101G
7xLightray
Member
This verse is expressing order or succession.. Gen 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be oneH259 flesh." ..by it's explanation..
1. Here is the first in order, Gen 2:20 "..but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him." [Adam all alone]
2. And here is the last in order, Gen 2:22-23 "And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." [the second in order is an image of the first, and is another person]
God's image must work with all scripture. And God's explanation of His own image (Gen 2:24) works with all scripture. It does not work with the one you are suggesting, as Jn 17:3; 6:51; Gen 1-2 shows.
Let me stop you right here. You got my example wrong! The word that comes out of ones mouth is not a person! You are still not understanding what I have said. I've made this very clear, that there was only the Father person in the beginning with His spoken word (which word was not a person, but is living). Before there was Eve, there was Adam and His rib, which rib was then made into a person.
Are you and your spoken word, two persons, two beings? No! So, how did you get two person beings in the beginning?
"also if one being was to come in flesh and only existed when in flesh, then that being is not God. now that only LEAVE one in the beginning, but H259 ECHAD do not say this." And with this, you told me you have not heard a single word that I've said, not a single word did you hear! Also, this statement of yours "also if one being was to come in flesh and only existed when in flesh, then that being is not God." is not true. Let me explain..
Born after it's own kind! We are human, and if we humans have children, they are human, because they were made from humans. If God had a child they would be God, because they were made from God (they would not be the only true God person the Father, though). But God took His word, which is God (but not a person), and made a man from that word, which word was God. So, one would be equal to (or image of) God, because they were made out of God, and this one would also be man, because they were made in every way like man in flesh, was reared as a man, and grew up as a man, but came forth out of God (and man).
You started off with false premises.
It does not leave just a person, it leaves spirit/light, and a person!
"is a person an IMAGE that is manifested without a body" God does share His person/character image, through His holy spirit (which is not in bodily form) with the Born Again person, starting the process of becoming an image of God's character. Man was made in the image of God, and was in the beginning made good, which is also an image of God's character.
Are you saying God could not see His own image of His own character if He wanted? God is without a body and eyes like man, does that mean God cannot see?
Did not the invisible God, who is not in bodily form, manifest His His character when He delivered the Israelites from Egypt? If God could do that then why could He not make a copy of His character, which is not a person, but is God's power (His word), and manifest that? I see no reason why He could not. And we are talking about a word coming out of Gods mouth, not a person, or abstract character, no, something real, more real than you, it (the word) made you! Did nothing make you?
Again, started off with a false premises.
101G
Well-known member
thank you, for the succession of God himself is in ORDINAL DESIGNATIONS of FIRST and LAST.... . in TIME, ORDER, PLACE, and RANK.... just as 101G been saying.
ERROR in Reference to God. let's get it right. the Order was in TIME. Adam was created on day 3 and the woman was brought forth on DAY 6
understand the woman was IN the man on DAY 3 and was NOT BROUGHT FORTH ON DAY 6. know, both was created on DAY 3 and their GENDER was made on day 6 when the woman was brought fourth or Manifested in the world.
please understand your bible.
it do LISTEN, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
FIGURE: G5179 τύπος tupos (tï '-pos) n.
1. a die (as struck).
2. (by implication) a stamp or scar.
3. (by analogy) a shape, i.e. a statue.
4. (figuratively) style or resemblance.
5. (specially) a sampler (“type”), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning).
[from G5180]
KJV: en-(ex-)ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print
Root(s): G5180
let's see it, Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
Express IMAGE? G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer') n.
1. an engraver (the tool or the person).
2. (by implication) an engraving.
3. (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped.
4. (by extension) an exact copy.
5. (figuratively) a representation.
[from charasso “to sharpen to a point” (akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)]
KJV: express image
Compare: G1125, G1504
See also: G5480
BINGO.
if what you said is true, so, was the Lord GIVEN the Holy Spirit at the birth of the flesh or at his Baptism?
now is the IMAGE of Man is God's character, so how is the character Manifested ... or seen? correct in a body
101G.
101G.
7xLightray
Member
You are welcome, but you forgot the explanation part, they are still two persons. And Jn 17:3 is still two persons. Recall we went over this, cant be the person that both sent and did not send, that is impossible. Your God, and your doctrine, dies right here!
Tell me how you yourself (your person) can be both the one that sent yourself and did not send yourself? Please don't reply with that one word, explain how, for child to understand. It's impossible!
"ERROR in Reference to God. let's get it right. the Order was in TIME."
Time! I would like to know, how you didn't get time out of my comment, of Adam was all alone, and before there was Eve, there was Adam and his rib?!
Can you explain the rest of your comment with scripture? "Adam was created on day 3 and the woman was brought forth on DAY 6
understand the woman was IN the man on DAY 3 and was NOT BROUGHT FORTH ON DAY 6. know, both was created on DAY 3 and their GENDER was made on day 6 when the woman was brought fourth or Manifested in the world."
"2. (by implication) a stamp or scar."
"3. (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped."
Yes, a copy of the original! When one engraves something, they are making a copy of something that already exists in the world. Either you are the exact same person, or you are an image. I've already shown scripture does not support this doctrine of yours. Jn 17:3 is still two persons. Recall we went over this, cannot be the person that both sent and did not send, that is impossible.
This was your comment, "God is Spirit, and in the beginning God had no flesh bone and blood. well that leave your "person" correct."
This was my response, "It does not leave just a person, it leaves spirit/light, and a person!" because you were speaking of in the beginning. So, in the beginning God was a person and spirit/light, that is what I was commenting on, because by your comment, as I understand you, you were saying God was just a person in the beginning, which I disagree with, for God is light/spirit and a person. So, what this has to do with the holy spirit at Christ's birth, and baptism, I have no clue. But here is what I know..
Here is the holy spirit, the word, becoming flesh..
Luk 1:35 "And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon [G1909] you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow [G1982: From G1909 and a derivative of G4639] you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God."
..with..
Mat 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise...she was found with child of [G1537 means: out of, or out from] the Holy Ghost.]"
..again..
Mat 1:20 "..for that which is conceived in her is of [G1537 means: out of, or out from] the Holy Ghost."
..and here at His baptism..
Luk 3:22 "and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”"
They were able to see the holy spirit in bodily form. So, God could see Himself in bodily form.
"now is the IMAGE of Man is God's character, so how is the character Manifested ... or seen? correct in a body"
And this was my comment to that, "Did not the invisible God, who is not in bodily form, manifest His His character when He delivered the Israelites from Egypt?" No one seen God, but they seen His actions. God was not in a body, but still manifested His character!
God can also talk, and that's how you get to know someone. Are you saying then, that if there were two bodiless Gods dwelling in heaven, they could not know each other's character? God is also without a body and eyes like man, does that mean God cannot see?
We are talking about God's spoken word that came out of His mouth. What would come out of God's mouth, which is so powerful that it created all that you see? Are you saying God's spoken word/spirit/breath that came out of His mouth, which created all things, and is still working, does not carry God's will, wisdom, character? Isa 11:2 "And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;"
101G
Well-known member
101G explained and again explain 101G will. listen closely, not two seperate persons, but one person shared. and is the scripture that shows this clear as day. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
two words 101G has highlighted for all to understand.
Form: G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
the NATURE of God is Spirit, (per John 4:24a). notice, the definition above, this Nature is the base or the Root of G3313. and this root word is,
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something). Both "Portion, and Allotted are synonyms with "SHARE". here is the correct answer to God's plurality. he, God, is the EQUAL "SHARE" of, of, of, HIMSELF manifested in flesh. and as the EQUAL "SHARE" of himself is bored out in the scriptures. supportive scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." God's "OWN ARM" is he himself. because "portion" is synonyms with "SHARE". so, God shared himself in Flesh .... "THAT WAS TO COME". notice to come is future tense, and 101G have supportive scripture for this. A. Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." B. 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2:6 "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." C. Galatians 4:4 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"
now, in time to come, this explains the "WITH" in Philippians 2:6. here is the explanation as to HOW the SON was "WITH" God, just as the Word was "WITH" God in John 1:1. 101G will not give his explanation, but bible. scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." seems like two separate persons? well let the scriptures tell us. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." BINGO, the term "ALSO" means, in addition; too. hello, in addition to being the "FIRST" he is ..... "ALSO" .... the Last, the same one person just as Isaiah 63:5 clearly states.
now, if you have any other questions just ask
101G.
7xLightray
Member
That's great you got your doctrine to work up to a certain point. Do you see that all these passages work with my doctrine as well, and even your definitions! But, this is the thing, your doctrine may fit some scripture, but it does not fit all! Like Jn 17:3, or Gen 1:26-27; 2:22. And that is true of other Christian religions false Gods and Christs; you must know this yourself, their doctrine can fit much of scripture, but not all!
Think on this, I do not know of any verse that contradicts my doctrine, and no one else has been able to show error in it either. And I know of verses that do contradict your doctrine, so much so, that I know it is impossible for your doctrine to be able to overcome them. Yet you still are trying to convince me of your doctrine with verses that work with your doctrine, when you are ignoring the weightier ones that show your doctrine to be in error (like Jn 17:3). So, unless you love debating for the love of debating, how are you going to convince me of your doctrine, when no error has been found in my doctrine, but I know of major flaws in yours? It's like our doctrines are puzzles, and you are trying to convince me that your puzzle with missing pieces is better than my puzzle that has no missing pieces. Do you see what I am saying? And, are you able to see it from my side? Maybe, you may want to change your strategy, unless you love debating. You can't overcome truth! That's why the Pharisees had to resort to falsely accusing Him.
This is how one knows they do not have the right doctrine, if it does not fit every verse. You must know it is impossible for any person to be both the person that sent themselves, and did not send themselves.
Jesus is the Only begotten Son, not of Mary, but of God! And what I mean by "not of Mary" is that if Jesus the person put on earthly flesh from Mary, then Jesus is not the son of God, for He would be God with human flesh as a coat, which does not make one human! But if Jesus is from that which God took a share of Himself and made a son, then Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, indeed. And as Jn 5:18 points out, that makes Jesus equal to God. As sheep are equal to sheep, from which they are made!
And Eve is a share of Adam. Eve is Adam, yet, she is not Adam! As to flesh she is Adam, as to person she is not Adam.
Right, His own arm, therefore mine own arm, but your arm is not your person. An arm is you, but not the you, you the person. An arm could be cut off, and you will still be you. Arm is the flesh part.
An image is you, but not you.
This is God's image Gen 1:26-27!
Yes, the Father is the Son, for that is the Father's share of His spirit that became flesh, but Jesus is another person, that is clearly pointed out in Jn 17:3, and impossible to get out of!
The Father's arm is the Father, but not the Father person Himself! And with His arm/power, God prepared a body for His son. So, that is the Father, as I am made of my parents, whatever I am I got from them. I am my parents, with all their genes and traits, but I am my own person.
If you try reading the Bible with the understanding Jesus is God's literal son, it all works out, in every minutia detail.