101G
Well-known member
that's where the link you gave took me to
but 101G saw none. now if you have some hard evidence, then we can discuss. else.......
101G.
Isaiah 53:5 The chastisement of our peace was upon Him
- Thread starter Joe
- Start date
101G.
Dizerner
Well-known member
that's where the link you gave took me to
but 101G saw none. now if you have some hard evidence, then we can discuss. else.......
101G.
What?? Those were two different responses.
I said thread not post, thread includes all replies.
101G
Well-known member
look just say thread, and don't give a link.
and as for the tread, NOTHING NEW...... and?
101G.
we don't see it that way either, again....... AND?
101G.
civic
Well-known member
As if Jesus needed correction and to be punished by God
101G
Well-known member
@
@dizerner
Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
Wounded:: H2490 חָלַל chalal (chaw-lal') v.
1. (properly) to bore.
Bore: verb "To make a hole" means, stab, pierce, spear,
Bruised: Crucify, https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/bruise.html#C0-10
as a Verb, "To strike, especially repeatedly with hard blows".... now is this chastisement, or penal?
also another word for smitten, meaning nailed
101G.
in a G2758 κενόω kenoo state?
@dizerner
Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
Wounded:: H2490 חָלַל chalal (chaw-lal') v.
1. (properly) to bore.
Bore: verb "To make a hole" means, stab, pierce, spear,
Bruised: Crucify, https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/bruise.html#C0-10
as a Verb, "To strike, especially repeatedly with hard blows".... now is this chastisement, or penal?
also another word for smitten, meaning nailed
101G.
101G
Well-known member
to all,
the Lord Jesus, the Ordinal Last, or the Last Adam, took our place, or was our substitute for the punishment for sin. supportive scripture, Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
this term "propitiation" is the Greek word,
G2435 ἱλαστήριον hilasterion (hiy-la-stee'-riy-on) n.
1. an item or location used in obtaining favorable forgiveness.
2. (concisely) an atonement place or sacrifice.
3. (concretely) an atoning sacrifice (for favorable forgiveness); (i.e. the victim, not the act).
4. (specially) the atonement seat, the lid of the Ark (in the Temple).
[neuter of G2433 with enclitic of a surface or place]
KJV: mercyseat, propitiation
Root(s): G2433
101G.
the Lord Jesus, the Ordinal Last, or the Last Adam, took our place, or was our substitute for the punishment for sin. supportive scripture, Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
this term "propitiation" is the Greek word,
G2435 ἱλαστήριον hilasterion (hiy-la-stee'-riy-on) n.
1. an item or location used in obtaining favorable forgiveness.
2. (concisely) an atonement place or sacrifice.
3. (concretely) an atoning sacrifice (for favorable forgiveness); (i.e. the victim, not the act).
4. (specially) the atonement seat, the lid of the Ark (in the Temple).
[neuter of G2433 with enclitic of a surface or place]
KJV: mercyseat, propitiation
Root(s): G2433
101G.
Johann
Well-known member
To me this is penal-substitutionary, vicarious atonement.
Penal
PE'NAL, a. [L. poena; Gr. pain, punishment. See Pain.]
1. Enacting punishment; denouncing the punishment of offenses; as a penal law or statute; the penal code. Penal statutes must be construed strictly.
2. Inflicting punishment.
Adamantine chains and penal fire.
3. Incurring punishment; subject to a penalty; as a penal act of offense.
Webster.
κόλασις
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.
LXX related word(s)
H3637 kalam ni.
H4383 mikhshol
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2849
More in NTW: G6394
kolasis. This word, meaning "punishment," is used for divine punishment in 2Mac 4:38; 4Mac 8:9. In the NT it occurs in Mat_25:46 : Those who fail the practical ethical task will go away to eternal punishment. The only other instance is in 1Jn_4:18, which says that fear is its own punishment (cf. 3:18). This fear is driven out by love, which is free from every fear.
[J. SCHNEIDER]
Thayer Definition:
1) a decree, judgments
2) judgment
2a) condemnation of wrong, the decision (whether severe or mild) which one passes on the faults of others
2b) in a forensic sense
2b1) the sentence of a judge
2b2) the punishment with which one is sentenced
2b3) condemnatory sentence, penal judgment, sentence
3) a matter to be judicially decided, a lawsuit, a case in court
Synonyms
See Definition for kolasis [G2851]
See Definition for timoria [G5098]
2851 differs from 5098 as that which is disciplinary and has
reference to the him who suffers, while the latter is penal
and has reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts it.
b. Suffering as a Means of Testing. With judgment goes the idea of testing. Only by way of this present world can one enter the future aeon. It is by suffering that Israel enjoys the three special gifts of the law, the land, and the world to come.
c. Suffering with a View to Purification for the Coming Aeon. Another thought is that of the atoning power of suffering. The people falls to temptations but penal suffering purges it for the future aeon.
C. Adultery in the Greek and Roman World. Greek law strictly forbids adultery by women and grants to the husband or family the right of revenge (though this is limited by public law, and may be waived in favor of a public complaint). Guilty wives are to be put away. Ideally, moralists urge fidelity on husbands too, but in practice intercourse with the hetaira is accepted. Roman law allows the husband to punish an adulterous wife (even by death), and a father has similar rights of punishment or revenge. Later, adultery becomes a penal offense with banishment as the punishment, but in the moral degeneration of the imperial period the infidelity of both husbands and wives is common.
Etc.-etc.
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101G
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
. Ephesians 2:8-10:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Rom 10:5 For Moses writes of the righteousness which is of the Torah: "The man doing these things shall live by them." (Lev. 18:5)
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness of faith says this: "Do not say in your heart, Who will go up into Heaven?" (that is, to bring down Messiah);
Rom 10:7 or, "Who has descended into the abyss of Sheol and brought up Messiah from the dead."
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The Word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the Word of faith which we proclaim) (Deut. 30:12-14)
Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Master Yahshua with your mouth, and believe in your heart that YAHWEH raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For the heart which believes in Him shall be declared righteous, and the mouth that confesses Him shall live.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing in Him will not be ashamed." (Isa. 28:16)
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Why answer my question WITH a question? Can you elaborate on PSA?
Johann
Well-known member
Here-
a. "Stricken" from above, (comp. Gen_12:17; 2Ki_15:5); so strong is this word that many have viewed the Servant as a leper - His disease so far advanced that men were horrified by His very appearance!
b. "Smitten of God" - an expression that is used elsewhere of the infliction of disease as a divine chastisement, (1Sa_5:12; Psa_102:4; Hos_9:16; Joh_19:7).
c. "Afflicted", wrapped about with suffering - which they regarded as a consequence of His own sin, (comp. Act_3:13-21; 1Co_2:8).
2. In the day of enlightenment Israel will recognize the truth: here the idea of divine substitution is perfectly expressed; it is FOR US that He suffered!
a. He has "borne OUR griefs" (sickness, weakness and distress), "and carried our sorrows" - involving the pain and punishment due OUR SINS, (vs. 4a; Isa_63:9; Heb_4:15). The word "borne" is clearly connected with sacrifices and expiation, (Lev_5:1; Lev_5:17; Lev_16:22).
1) Though Matthew sees in this a reference to our Lord's healing of physical ailments (Mat_8:17), its main emphasis is on the spiritual.
2) The Lord did not heal everyone during His personal ministry; nor does he do so today, (comp. 2Co_12:7-10; 2Ti_4:20; 1Ti_5:23).
b. It was for OUR transgressions (those who have so wretchedly misjudged the truth concerning Him) that He was "pierced through". (vs. 5a, 8; Psa_22:16; Heb_9:28); for OUR "iniquities" He was smitten, crushed, bruised or broken, (vs. 5-b, 10; Rom_4:25; Rom_5:6-8; 1Co_15:3; Eph_5:2; comp. Gen_3:15); Isaiah uses the strongest words possible to describe a violent and agonizing death!
c. The divinely-administered chastisement that fell upon the Suffering Servant was the very thing that provides our PEACE - not only our general well-being, but our salvation and restoration to a relationship of peace with God, (vs. 5-c; Heb_5:8; Php_2:7-8).
d. It is by, or through, His "stripes" that we are healed (from our rebellion and backslidings) - restored to spiritual soundness and fellowship with the heavenly Father, (vs. 5-d; 1Pe_2:24-25).
101G
Well-known member
GRACE:
G5485 χάρις charis (cha'-ris) n.
1. (of manner or act) graciousness (as gratifying).
2. (especially) grace, the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life.
3. (also) gratitude.
4. (hence) thanks (as gratitude expressed).
5. (as adjective) gracious.
6. (by extension) gracious benevolence.
7. (of politics or manipulation) influential favor, either good or bad (i.e. a storing up acts of kindness toward future repayment; political influence).
{abstract or concrete, literal, figurative or spiritual}
[from G5463]
KJV: acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy)
Root(s): G5463
what Favor? 1 John 3:5 "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."
now comes the Faith in Who tor what he did on the cross? Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," 1 Thessalonians 5:10 "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."
101G.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
When have you gotten what He deserves? Can you provide detail?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
compared to
Luk 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.
This is relative to His Priestly work
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
You're conflating the suffering He experienced in our humanity to the real cause of His suffering.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Perfected in His Priestly order.
No, spirit denotes personhood. They are three persons, spirits, unified as ONE GOD.
Johann
Well-known member
I am "conflating" nothing.
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