Isaiah 53:5 The chastisement of our peace was upon Him

[EclipseEventSigns]

For once I can support the Aramaic Scriptures in their interpretation of Isaiah 53, lol.

You ever have the thought that maybe the OT was originally all Aramaic as well?

Then you'd get the entire Bible in one single language.

Nope. I go where the evidence clearly shows. The Old Testament was given in Hebrew. Except for a bit in Genesis, Ezra and Daniel - which was in Aramaic.

 

[Diserner]

Nope. I go where the evidence clearly shows. The Old Testament was given in Hebrew. Except for a bit in Genesis, Ezra and Daniel - which was in Aramaic.

Maybe the Aramaic originals were lost, did you ever think of THAT.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Maybe the Aramaic originals were lost, did you ever think of THAT.

No. Because that's not according to the evidence. You continue to mock. Try to spend the same amount of energy on doing some actual research. Try it some time.

 

[Diserner]

No. Because that's not according to the evidence. You continue to mock. Try to spend the same amount of energy on doing some actual research. Try it some time.

Making a point is not mocking, and you are simply wrong about that.

That's completely being over sensitive and declaring no one can critique your position.

If you are coming on a public place, you really shouldn't cry foul if someone doesn't agree with you, it's bullying.


There IS as much evidence the OT was originally written in Aramaic as the NT (maybe more since we actually have Aramaic portions).

And that's a FACT.

All you have is speculation.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Making a point is not mocking, and you are simply wrong about that.

That's completely being over sensitive and declaring no one can critique your position.

If you are coming on a public place, you really shouldn't cry foul if someone doesn't agree with you, it's bullying.


There IS as much evidence the OT was originally written in Aramaic as the NT (maybe more since we actually have Aramaic portions).

And that's a FACT.

All you have is speculation.

LOL. No one is crying or being sensitive. Maybe you are - you seem to be projecting. No, the issue is continually blabbing your mouth off without doing any kind of actual research. You people continually display such ignorance. If it would ever be possible to appreciate how much you don't know, you would be laughing so hard at all these vain attempts.. I'd love to have some actual critiques - by people who "get it". Maybe one day.

oh ya, btw, ad hominem attacks are not critiques or allowed on this site. So there are good reasons to complain about some behaviour in these
threads. People would never get away treating people in "real life" the way you treat people here with such disrespect and unchristian behaviour. You seem to think it's perfectly fine to act that way.

And in case you think my view is something I made up myself. Far from it. There are a good number of people through the centuries that have come to similar conclusions. And there's been several who have contacted me privately to discuss certain topics. But they'd never discuss things out in the open based on the immature and ignorant treatment that these subjects have gotten.

 

[civic]

The Hebrew word מוּסָר mûsâr (moo-sawr) is used in Isa 53:5 and means chastisement, which in Hebrew means instruction, training, correction given by parents upon their children to perfect-to complete them. Chastisement includes learning by suffering. One can chasten his son by causing him to suffer to one degree or another with the purpose to teach him something that he might otherwise not learn. This is called discipline as well.

Now that Isa 53:5 has been fulfilled, we know God told man ahead of time He would perfect His Son to be the Author of Salvation through the sufferings that brought us peace with Him. Our Lord's real experiences of humbling Himself to come into our form and living in our human weakness, suffering and giving up His life unto death on account of our sins is what purifies us of our sins and reconciled-restored our relationship to God.

Here we are informed that God made our Lord, the Author of our salvation "perfect" through suffering.

"For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering." (Heb 2:10)​

Again, we are informed that our Lord "learned obedience through what He suffered", and was "made perfect" by it, becoming the source of salvation.

"In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek." (Heb 5:7-10)​

Here we are informed the oath of God "appoints a Son forever who has been perfected".

"For such a high priest was fitting for us: holy, guiltless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who doesn’t need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For he did this once for all, when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men as high priests who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the law appoints a Son forever who has been perfected." (Heb 7:26-28)​

The Hebrew understanding of chastisement does not mean penal punishment like us westerners have been led to think. It means instruction, training, or correction to perfect a person, to make them complete.

The suffering and death that Jesus our Lord experienced taught Him in all ways what it was to be in the weakness of humanity, so that He could fully sympathize with us; this being what He learned that qualifies Him to be "the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him". This chastisement-being perfected through suffering-was upon Him for our peace, for our sakes ulitmately.

God Bless

Lets get back to the OP- There is no penal in the atonement .

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Lets get back to the OP- There is no penal in the atonement .

Yes. But calling out bad behaviour and actions against forum rules needs to be done.

 

[101G]

Well, it's a mistake in logic.

God is divided in Person not Being.

That allows for him to do some things beyond the human understanding.

ERROR a person is never a person without a spirit, for if what you say is true, then a still born baby proves you wrong, just ask king David and Bathsheba...... (smile).
so, post scripture where someone (human), was a person without spirit ....... LIVING, BREATHING. book chapter and verse please.

and as for divided, God is "ONE". if divided, post that scripture also.
so, try again.

101G.

 

[Diserner]

ERROR a person is never a person without a spirit, for if what you say is true, then a still born baby proves you wrong, just ask king David and Bathsheba...... (smile).
so, post scripture where someone (human), was a person without spirit ....... LIVING, BREATHING. book chapter and verse please.

and as for divided, God is "ONE". if divided, post that scripture also.
so, try again.

101G.

For Scriptural proof of the Trinity see this thread:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/i-wish-i-were-a-unitarian.617/

As for your objections, they are comparing humans with God, and God clearly told us he is not like humans or a creation.

 

[Diserner]

oh ya, btw, ad hominem attacks are not critiques or allowed on this site. So there are good reasons to complain about some behaviour in these
threads. People would never get away treating people in "real life" the way you treat people here with such disrespect and unchristian behaviour. You seem to think it's perfectly fine to act that way.

You can all anything ad hominen and cry victim. You can literally call anything mocking, and whine about it, like you admit to doing here after just denying it one sentence before. Anyone can throw out an accusation.

Nothing I posted to you was a direct insult intended to degrade you, but an illustration of a point. Yes, I would treat people in real life exactly the same, and I have, and no they did not whine and cry and try to ban me.

 

[101G]

For Scriptural proof of the Trinity see this thread:

AND? no proof. understand God did not, was not a PARTAKER in flesh and blood .... but took part in it. scripture. Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"

understand, the Lord Jesus is not even of this world...... so how is he a MAN? ..... yes in likeness. but only took part in it.... know the Difference between "PARTAKE" and "TOOK PART"

and as for scriptural proof of a trinity. there is none. let's see if there is a trinity in scriptures... by the scriptures. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

the Word here who is GOD "MADE ALL THINGS" correct. let the bible answer. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

well if there was a TRINITY it's a ONE PERSON ........ for the LORD was alone.... meaning no one else present. which also means he didn't go through anyone else because there was no one else present to go through. and two, the Word in John 1 has to be the LORD who is God. and three if the LORD was "ALONE", then there is no other who is Omi-present. because he was ALONE.

so no trinity.

101G.

 

[Diserner]

AND? no proof.

There's no way you read that entire thread already.

Which means you just want to fire off without putting the effort in.

Do you have any denominations or affiliations with any religious groups?

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

You can all anything ad hominen and cry victim. You can literally call anything mocking, and whine about it, like you admit to doing here after just denying it one sentence before. Anyone can throw out an accusation.

Nothing I posted to you was a direct insult intended to degrade you, but an illustration of a point. Yes, I would treat people in real life exactly the same, and I have, and no they did not whine and cry and try to ban me.

And you seem to be projecting something has not even been said. How about just sticking with the subject matter and stop making up issues.

 

[101G]

There's no way you read that entire thread already.

Which means you just want to fire off without putting the effort in.

Do you have any denominations or affiliations with any religious groups?

I read the one you posted a link to. check your link

101G.

 

[civic]

This interpretation smacks of heresy and gnosticism. It is not at all the point of these passages. You are honestly trying to say that Jesus, God Himself, came to earth because he lacked something? That only by experiencing life as a human and being obedient that he could then somehow be completed and perfect? I can't believe so many are agreeing with this nonsense.

First, we have to consider Isaiah 53:3 - in context.
[Isa 53:5 LSB] 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our peace [fell] upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed.

You didn't deal with the whole verse. Isaiah states the same concept multiple times in different ways. pierced, crushed, wounds - these are violent actions. "Chastening" is much more than just "instruction" and "correction". And notice the chastening is for "our well being". It had nothing to do with making him a better person.

It's unfortunate that the Greek New Testament text is so nebulous. The problem with the verb "perfect" is that it has a transitive and intransitive sense. It depends if there is an object being acted on or not. It can have the sense of making something complete or whole. Or, it can have the sense of being fulfilled, accomplished, completed. This second sense is also contained in the Greek word.

The Aramaic text of the Peshitta is very clear that in the passages in Hebrews, the intransitive sense is being used. The Messiah isn't being "perfected". He is fulfilling or accomplishing that which he came to do. He has accomplished the mission he was sent to do through the trials and suffering. He fulfilled the many prophecies in the Old Testament. Due to this fact that it was all completed, that is what allows us to have salvation.

These actions are not needed for him to "level up". These actions were done to complete God's holy requirements for justice and his demonstration of his limitless love.

Your view smacks gnostic, Manichaean, Augustinian roots. As you would say - projecting.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Your view smacks gnostic, Manichaean, Augustinian roots. As you would say - projecting.

With no proof, your opinions are absolutely meaningless and simply will be ignored.

 

[civic]

With no proof, your opinions are absolutely meaningless and simply will be ignored.

I’ve provided the historical evidence from many sources.

 

[101G]

There's no way you read that entire thread already.

Which means you just want to fire off without putting the effort in.

Do you have any denominations or affiliations with any religious groups?

the link you gave must not been the right one. and two what do any denominations or affiliations with any religious groups has to do with God and his body. are we not one in his body? ..... (smile), guess not.

101G.

 

[101G]

For Scriptural proof of the Trinity see this thread:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/i-wish-i-were-a-unitarian.617/
As for your objections, they are comparing humans with God, and God clearly told us he is not like humans or a creation.

please click on this link and see where it takes you? https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/i-wish-i-were-a-unitarian.617/

101G.

 

[Diserner]

please click on this link and see where it takes you? https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/i-wish-i-were-a-unitarian.617/

101G.

Apparently you thought I meant a single post.

the link you gave must not been the right one. and two what do any denominations or affiliations with any religious groups has to do with God and his body. are we not one in his body? ..... (smile), guess not.

They are a quick way to state beliefs.

And yes, many have errors.