But that poster never addresses rebuttal
Is the word all ever used in a restricted sense ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Um it does not speak of all men
Your argument is a total non sequitur
You simply fail to distinguish between atonement made and atonement applied
atpollard
Well-known member
I cannot speak to “never”, but I agree that he should address rebuttal more rather than less (and by “address”, I mean exegete scripture to support or refute views). However, he is under no obligation to do what I think should be done.
He is however, under a moral obligation to defend his position.
atpollard
Well-known member
Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, [NKJV]
… And 1 Timothy 2:4-6, the verse we were discussing, does nothing to refute my understanding of atonement or prove your understanding of atonement.
(quoted for easy reference):
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
I believe, with a high degree of confidence, that “every tribe and tongue and people and nation” leaves out nobody and is the very definition of “all men”. It is the restriction on who is in Heaven singing this new song, specifically “have redeemed us to God” that transforms “all men” from “without exception” to “without distinction”.
I think looking at what an omniscient, omnipotent God actually accomplishes is quite germane to understand what he “would have” (desires) to occur. I believe that God does not TRY, God simply DOES.
Guilty as charged. As Charles Spurgeon said, God does not build a wide bridge half way across the river and ask men to jump the gap … God builds a narrow bridge all the way to himself (only wide enough for “whosoever believes”). I believe the atonement actually was EFFECTIVE in saving those He “Foreknew” (His word), not merely in the purchasing of potential salvation for “all without exception” that will fail to achieve salvation for most (whatever the reason).
… And 1 Timothy 2:4-6, the verse we were discussing, does nothing to refute my understanding of atonement or prove your understanding of atonement.
(quoted for easy reference):
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Um US here is all the redeemed
It excludes those for whom redemption was not applied
Thus is not all men
brightfame52
Well-known member
So are you if that's the case. You post 30 verses and dont explain not one and demand your opponent to do so. Now when you defend all 30 verses, with exegete, then I will feel obligated to match. But to sling 30 verses at me, which dont really oppose what I have already took time to explain, and expect me to take up God knows how much time to explain to you the truth, it will never happen.
Facts you do not deal with
All men are not elect
The whole world is not elect
The world is not elect
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
brightfame52
Well-known member
You failed to prove that or deal with the particular verses quoted
You are simply begging the question and ignoring the evidence
brightfame52
Well-known member
You failed to prove that they dont, you brought them up in rebuttal
You failed to address the evidence
Facts you do not deal with
All men are not elect
The whole world is not elect
The world is not elect
you cannot state all men are elect
you cannot state the whole world is elect
you cannot state the world is elect
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
brightfame52
Well-known member
atpollard
Well-known member
You are stating facts not in evidence.
As stated, I believe that there IS NO PERSON for whom ATONEMENT was made that REDEMPTION was not applied. Jesus died for His sheep, Jesus did not die for the goats (not my sheep). Nothing in the verses we have discussed even comes close to refuting that position or proving another position.
ALL means “all without distinction” not “all without exception” and Rev 5 illustrates the SUCCESS of God’s plan to save “ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION” (ie. SOME from EVERY “tribe and tongue and people and nation”) … just as God desired in 1 Timothy.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@atpollard
Agreed, thats why Jesus received the Spirit from the Father upon His exaltation so that He, the Spirit would apply the Spiritual benefits of the atonement unto all for whom He died and redeemed Acts 2:32-33
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
So in essence, Christ as Saviour is responsible for the application of redemption as well, so the Spirit works in His Name
Jn 14 26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Agreed, thats why Jesus received the Spirit from the Father upon His exaltation so that He, the Spirit would apply the Spiritual benefits of the atonement unto all for whom He died and redeemed Acts 2:32-33
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
So in essence, Christ as Saviour is responsible for the application of redemption as well, so the Spirit works in His Name
Jn 14 26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Um Jesus died even for Judas
Luke 22:14–23 (LEB) — 14 And when the hour came, he reclined at the table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you that I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And he took in hand a cup, and after giving thanks he said, “Take this and share it among yourselves. 18 For I tell you, from now on I will not drink of the product of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And he took bread, and after giving thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And in the same way the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood which is poured out for you. 21 “But behold, the hand of the one who is betraying me is with me on the table! 22 For the Son of Man is going according to what has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!” 23 And they began to debate with one another who then of them it could be who was going to do this.
His body was given for them, which included Judas,
and I remain sorry, but all without distinction is all without exception
The sheep would be a distinction, so all without distinction would be the non sheep as well.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Sorry you could not state
All men were elect.
The whole world was elect.
The world was elect.
all men are elect.
The nation was elect.
So you are running from the evidence
brightfame52
Well-known member
,I showed evidence the word all is used in a restricted sense
Except not one concerned the verses under discussion
You ran from them and this
Sorry you could not state
All men were elect.
The whole world was elect.
The world was elect.
All men are elect.
The nation was elect.(to be saved)
So you are running from the evidence
