Is the word all ever used in a restricted sense ?

[atpollard]

3. Biblical Use of "All" (Πάντες) and "Every" (Πᾶς) in Context
The word πάντες (all) appears in different contexts with varying meanings:

Romans 3:23 – "πάντες γὰρ ἥμαρτον" ("For all have sinned") clearly means every individual, not just "all groups of people."

Including babies?
[I am only pointing out that shifting definitions based on application are not an exclusively "Calvinist" - whatever that means - trait.]

 

[atpollard]

Your argument is valid-- the Calvinist attempt to redefine πάντες as "all groups" collapses because "some from every tribe" still requires "all tribes." If no tribe is excluded, then the distinction between "all without distinction" and "all without exception" is meaningless. The biblical usage of πάντες does not support their claim, and their interpretation of passages like 1 Timothy 2:4 and Revelation 5:9 is inconsistent.

• Will "ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION" be in Heaven?
• Will "ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION" be in Heaven?

Is there a difference between "ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION" and "ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION"?

Let's take if from an Arminian Unlimited Atonement:

• Did Jesus die for "all without distinction"? [no GROUP is excluded categorically] ... YES.
• Did Jesus die for "all without exception"? [no INDIVIDUAL is excluded, period] ... YES.
• Will "all without distinction" be saved? [no GROUP is excluded categorically] ... YES - Jews and Gentiles - every tribe tongue people and nation will be represented in heaven.
• Will "all without exception" be saved? [no INDIVIDUAL is excluded, period] ... Do Arminians embrace UNIVERSALISM? ... I think not.

Is there a difference between "ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION" and "ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION"?

 

[atpollard]

I'm of the opinion God does not get what He desires/wills to happen. God does not desire that believers disobey Him, rebel and commit sins. Yet believers do the above.

Therein lies the core of our disagreement.
Doctrine of God

 

[Johann]

• Will "ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION" be in Heaven?
• Will "ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION" be in Heaven?

Is there a difference between "ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION" and "ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION"?

Let's take if from an Arminian Unlimited Atonement:

• Did Jesus die for "all without distinction"? [no GROUP is excluded categorically] ... YES.
• Did Jesus die for "all without exception"? [no INDIVIDUAL is excluded, period] ... YES.
• Will "all without distinction" be saved? [no GROUP is excluded categorically] ... YES - Jews and Gentiles - every tribe tongue people and nation will be represented in heaven.
• Will "all without exception" be saved? [no INDIVIDUAL is excluded, period] ... Do Arminians embrace UNIVERSALISM? ... I think not.

Is there a difference between "ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION" and "ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION"?

Let's clarify and make this real simple--

Will "ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION" be in Heaven?
Yes. "All without distinction" means that no group—whether Jew or Gentile, rich or poor, male or female—is excluded. Heaven will have people from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation (Revelation 5:9).

Will "ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION" be in Heaven?
No, because that would mean universalism—that every single person, including those who reject Christ, will be saved. Scripture clearly refutes that idea (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 20:15).

Is there a difference between "ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION" and "ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION"?
Absolutely. "All without distinction" means no category is excluded, while "all without exception" means every single person is included. These are not the same thing.

Now, from an Arminian Unlimited Atonement perspective:

Did Jesus die for "all without distinction"?
Yes. No group is categorically excluded. Christ's atonement is for Jew and Gentile alike (1 Timothy 2:4-6, John 3:16, 1 John 2:2).

Did Jesus die for "all without exception"?
Yes. No individual is excluded—Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

Will "all without distinction" be saved?
Yes. Every group—every tribe, tongue, people, and nation—will have redeemed individuals in Heaven (Revelation 7:9).

Will "all without exception" be saved?
No. Arminians do not believe in universalism. Christ's atonement is sufficient for all but only applied to those who believe (John 3:18, Acts 16:31).

So, is there a difference between "ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION" and "ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION"?
Yes. One speaks of categories, the other of individuals. If Calvinists try to collapse the two, they create a contradiction—they'd have to affirm that all tribes are included while denying that Christ's atonement extends to all individuals within them.

Simple, yes?

J.

 

[brightfame52]

all sin yet you say the opposite regarding Gods will.

its never Gods will for a believer to sin but to be holy and obedient.

You still not making sense.

 

[atpollard]

So, is there a difference between "ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION" and "ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION"?
Yes. One speaks of categories, the other of individuals. If Calvinists try to collapse the two, they create a contradiction—they'd have to affirm that all tribes are included while denying that Christ's atonement extends to all individuals within them.

Simple, yes?

J.

It is simple.
It only became complicated when you DENIED that there was a difference between the two.

Your argument is valid-- the Calvinist attempt to redefine πάντες as "all groups" collapses because "some from every tribe" still requires "all tribes." If no tribe is excluded, then the distinction between "all without distinction" and "all without exception" is meaningless.

All Tribes without distinction will be in heaven. All Groups without distinction will be in heaven. All men (Jew and Gentile) without distinction will be in heaven.

All Tribes without exception will be in heaven. All Groups without exception will be in heaven. All men without exception will NOT be in heaven ... because all men without exception is more than just Jew and Gentile.

Did Jesus die for "all without exception"?
Yes. No individual is excluded—Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

YOU define WORLD as "every individual without exception", the scripture does not.

 

[civic]

You still not making sense.

Sure I’m making sense considering the facts don’t lie.

 

[synergy]

I agree. We were specifically discussing ALL and ALL MEN in 1 Timothy 2:4–6 [4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.]. I was suggesting that "What God wants, God gets" and the "all men" that God wants saved in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 is the exact same "all men" that we see ARE SAVED in Revelation 5:9 [And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,].


There is no such thing as "a calvinst" (or "an arminian" for that matter). There is simply TOO BROAD a range of definitions for "Calvinist" (and "Arminian").

• For many, it just means "somebody that accepts "T.U.L.I.P.".
• For others is means "The writings of John Calvin" (which few have read).
• For still others, it means "Reformed Theology" (as presented in the WCF).
• Some would even include a a 4-point TU*IP.

Even if you nail down one of those definitions (let's take a 5-point TULIP as an example), Even "experts" like R.C. Sproul and John Piper and John MacArthur would disagree on things.

Given the premise: "What OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT God wants, God gets"
And the verses:

• 1 Timothy 2:4–6 [4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.].
• Revelation 5:9 [And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,].

Could you please elaborate on what "fails terribly" in equating "all" to "all groups/tribes", because I obviously cannot see your point. It seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I just meant that the term "all" defaults to "all people", at least to me. So if you want to say "all tribes" then you must explicitly say "all tribes". That's what I meant - that the assumption that "all" automatically equates to "all tribes" fails - terribly for those who harbor TULIP presuppositions.

 

[TomL]

It doesnt take but one verse to show evidence that the word all is used with restriction in the scripture,99.95 of the time, so you need to prove the exception. You just provide scripture, dont work, or exegete them, yet you hypocritically demand that from others. Practice what you preach

Sorry, that is a completely false claim.

Context determined meaning, not some unrelated verse

You are displaying ignorance of basic bible exegesis, and ignoring multiple verses based on some unrelated verse.

 

[brightfame52]

Sure I’m making sense considering the facts don’t lie.

Of course u make sense to yourself

 

[civic]

Of course u make sense to yourself

lol and many others .

 

[brightfame52]

lol and many others .

lol, there are many like you duh

 

[praise_yeshua]

lol, there are many like you duh

Many like you?

Take pleasure in the few is self serving.

 

[brightfame52]

I believe all is used in a restrictive sense when used in Jn 12:32

32 ;And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
The all are drawn unto Christ,

I belive its the gathering in of all the elect untoH im by the powerful effects of His Cross. Also the word draw helkō is stated to be probably akin to αἱρέω (G138) which word means:

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose

Draw helkō:

1. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The same word Paul used for the word chosen here 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The drawing in Jn 12:32 is the inward work of the Sanctification of the Spirit unto the chosen

 

[TibiasDad]

Matt 10:22

And ye shall be hated of all [pas] men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Now is all here in this verse used in a restricted sense or does it comprehend all men without exception ? Will there be any exceptions to this General rule ?

Or is it as some arminians always say as they deny limited atonement, all means all, meaning all without exception !


What about Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all[ πᾶς] men unto me. Will there be any exceptions to this General rule ?

Context determines the scope of πάντας, (the word is not πᾶς), but once the scope is determined, all means all.

There are many times where the linguistic intent is to express a large general majority of people, such as in your example above. Christ has drawn men from every part of the world. In this sense, all types of men have been drawn and all types of men/women have both received and rejected him.

An example of this principle would be Luke 20:6But if we say, ‘Of human origin,’ all the people will stone us, because they are persuaded that John was a prophet.”

Now they didn’t mean that every single person in Jerusalem or Israel would pick up stones and throw them at the teachers of the Law, but that the general reaction of the people at large would be to do so, because Jesus was so popular with the general public as a whole.

But Peter, in Acts 4, said “8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.

Here “all the people of Israel” means every single person in Israel without exception!

Biblical language can say the same thing without specifically using “all” (pantas) such as in 1 John 2:2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

“The whole world” (ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου) uses the word ὅλου (holou) which is another word for “all” that comprises the entirety of the object to which it is applied, in this case, κόσμου, (Kosmou/ kosmos) World.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

@TibiasDad

Context determines the scope of πάντας, (the word is not πᾶς), but once the scope is determined, all means all.

It does mean all , even in a restricted sense, like all the seed Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all[the seed], Yet all mankind isnt the seed of abraham

 

[atpollard]

“The whole world” (ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου) uses the word ὅλου (holou) which is another word for “all” that comprises the entirety of the object to which it is applied, in this case, κόσμου, (Kosmou/ kosmos) World.

I agree that CONTEXT is critical in determining "all" - as is recognizing hyperbole in speech and writing.

So what is the "whole world"?
Clearly the EARTH is still a fallen place with disease and decay, so has Christ saved the "whole world" (and everything in it)?

 

[atpollard]

deleted

 

[TibiasDad]

I agree that CONTEXT is critical in determining "all" - as is recognizing hyperbole in speech and writing.

So what is the "whole world"?
Clearly the EARTH is still a fallen place with disease and decay, so has Christ saved the "whole world" (and everything in it)?

The only thing that can sin in the whole world is human kind; so Christ is the atonement for every sin committed by humanity everywhere in the entire world.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

The only thing that can sin in the whole world is human kind; so Christ is the atonement for every sin committed by humanity everywhere in the entire world.


Doug

False teaching nowhere found in scripture. Many die in their sins Jn 8:24

24 ;I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Rev 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.