brightfame52
Well-known member
Could they use their freewill and believe ? These here Jn 12:39
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, Yes or No
Is the word all ever used in a restricted sense ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, Yes or No
brightfame52
Well-known member
You already said they could believe, denying the plain truth of scripture Jn 12:39
39;Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Johann
Well-known member
Have you taken time to read the full context of John 12? This isn’t exegesis-it looks more like prooftexting. Do you realize that’s what’s happening here?
J.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Just need a yes or no , could they believe in Jesus according to Jn 12:39
I have witnessed this Tradition that you are engaging in here many times in my life. It seems to be taught in many this world's religious sects. The Tradition is to search scriptures for verses that can be used to support a Philosophy, I guess it's called a "Demarcation Point", from which a doctrine or religious philosophy is established. And then the tradition is to ignore every other Scripture that can be seen as contradictory to the adopted philosophy.
It's a fascinating study, and this tradition is rooted all the way back to the Garden of Eden. The Serpent engaged in this same Tradition.. Please consider the Words of God in this matter.
Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Well, if I were to search the Scriptures to find what God said, here is "some" of what I would find.
Gen. 1: 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen. 2: 2: 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
So, if a man used these verses as his "Demarcation point", it can be used to confirm the serpent's philosophy. And the case can be made that Eve was mistaken, and was rejecting the very Words of God, which is what you are accusing Johann of doing. And every time Eve would say to you, "but we can't eat of this one tree, lest we die", you would just slap down your "demarcation point" to "Prove your point".
But the Jesus "of the Bible instructs me; "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matt. 4:4)
And according to God's own Law, I am required to "Hearken" to His Word spoken through the Mouth of His Christ, the Messiah. (You can read this in your own Bible, Duet. 18: 18,19)
So according to God's Law I would need to go myself, and confirm the serpent's philosophy, even though it quoted some of God's Words.
And what do I find when I hearken to the Words of the Lord's Christ in this matter?
Gen. 2: 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 "But" of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So then, even though the Serpent Quoted Some of God's Word, it was promoting a LIE about God. A deceptive philosophy. A false Doctrine.
You see B52, you are engaging in the exact same tradition that the Serpent introduced into the World. You have created your own "Demarcation point" to justify your adopted Philosophy.
John 12: 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
And you say, "See, they couldn't believe because God chose them not to believe". But if you were to "Hearken to the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible" and consider "Every Inspired Word of the Holy Scriptures", as HE instructs, you would find that this philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting to others is a lie, a deceptive philosophy, a false doctrine, just as we were able to discern the serpents preaching, simply by being a "Doer" of the Christ's Sayings. You can find these Scriptures in my post #225.
Now I don't know you, so I can't judge whether you are doing this on purpose, as the serpent did, and purposely "changed the truth of God into a lie", as Paul puts it. Or if you are just like Eve and like I was for a time, and many are when "in time past we walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience", and have just been led astray by the shepherds "who profess to know God". So I'll assume you are just another of the "many" who Jesus spoke about that "shall be" deceived by Men "who come in Christ's Name".
So my friend, I am a nobody, high school grad, a 66 year old cowboy, no degree from any religious school. I know only one language and am certainly nothing special. A nobody in this world. There are a lot of folks on this forum smarter than me. But even a nobody like me was able to find these Truths about God through study and believe/Faith of Scriptures. I am no better than you, I am not smarter than you. You have every ability to Seek God's Kingdom, and His Righteousness as Jesus instructs, same as me. And if you seek Him from the heart, you will find Him, just as HE promised.
But if all your only purpose is to Justify your adopted religious sect, whichever one it is. If you are only here to promote the philosophies of your specific religious sect, then enjoy yourself, because this is your reward. At least according to the Jesus "of the Bible".
Last edited:
brightfame52
Well-known member
do you think that these in this verse could believe with their freewill ? Jn 12:39
39 therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, Yes or No
The question you are avoiding is "Why".
Johann
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
Why not ?
brightfame52
Well-known member
do you think that these in this verse could believe with their freewill ? Jn 12:39
39 therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, Yes or No
Well, that explains why you are here?
Troll,
a troll is a person who posts deliberately offensive or provocative messages online (such as in social media, a newsgroup, a forum, a chat room, an online video game) or who performs similar behaviors in real life. The methods and motivations of trolls can range from benign to sadistic. These messages can be inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic, and may have the intent of provoking others into displaying emotional responses, or manipulating others' perceptions, thus acting as a bully or a provocateur. The behavior is typically for the troll's amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival's online activities or purposefully causing confusion or harm to other people. Trolling behaviors involve tactical aggression to incite emotional responses, which can adversely affect the target's well-being.
I think your "Not respond" suggestion was a wise one.
Nathan
Member
Makes me think of the old saying "there but for the grace of God go I"
I have no special qualities that make me worthy of salvation. Before I excepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, I was “dead in my transgressions and sins”. God forgave my sin in Christ and raised me to newness of life.
There is nothing in us, about us, or done by us that can earn grace from God. We simply receive it through faith.
Johann
Well-known member
You asked why? The Scriptures answer that loud and clear-why they could not believe.
Genesis 6:5
"And Yahweh saw that the evil of humankind was great upon the earth, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was always only evil."
Hebrew Verb: רָאָה (ra'ah) – "saw"
Exodus 32:1
"And the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, and the people gathered opposite Aaron, and they said to him, 'Come, make for us gods who will go before us, because this Moses, the man who brought us up from the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.'"
Hebrew Verb: שִׁחֵת (shichet) – "corrupted"
Numbers 14:11
"And Yahweh said to Moses, 'How long until this people will despise me, and how long until they will not believe in me, and in all the signs that I have done in their midst?'"
Hebrew Verbs: נָאַץ (na'ats) – "despise"; אָמַן ('aman) – "believe"
Deuteronomy 9:23
"And when Yahweh sent you from Kadesh Barnea, saying, 'Go up and take possession of the land that I have given you,' then you rebelled against the command of Yahweh your God, and you did not believe him, and you did not listen to his voice."
Hebrew Verbs: מָרָה (marah) – "rebelled"; אָמַן ('aman) – "believe"
1 Samuel 8:7
"Then Yahweh said to Samuel, 'Listen to the voice of the people regarding all that they said to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.'"
Hebrew Verb: מָאַס (ma'as) – "rejected"
2 Kings 17:15
"They rejected his statutes and his covenant that he made with their ancestors and the warnings that he gave them. They went after false idols and became false, and they followed the nations that were around them, concerning whom Yahweh had commanded them that they should not do like them."
Hebrew Verb: מָאַס (ma'as) – "rejected"
Isaiah 5:24
"Therefore as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will become like the stench, and their blossom will go up like the dust. For they have rejected the instruction of Yahweh of hosts, and they have treated the word of the holy one of Israel with contempt."
Hebrew Verbs: מָאַס (ma'as) – "rejected"; נָאַץ (na'ats) – "treated with contempt"
Jeremiah 6:19
"Hear, O earth! Behold, I am bringing disaster on this people, the fruit of their plans, because they have not listened to my words; and as for my law—they have rejected it."
Hebrew Verb: מָאַס (ma'as) – "rejected"
Ezekiel 20:13
"But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness. They did not walk in my statutes, and they rejected my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live; and my Sabbaths they greatly profaned. Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them in the wilderness, to make a full end of them."
Hebrew Verbs: מָרָה (marah) – "rebelled"; מָאַס (ma'as) – "rejected"
Hosea 4:6
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being a priest to me. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children."
Hebrew Verb: מָאַס (ma'as) – "rejected"
New Testament Examples (Greek Verbs)
John 1:11
"He came to his own things, and his own people did not receive him."
Greek Verb: παραλαμβάνω (paralambanō) – "receive"
John 3:19
"And this is the judgment: that the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil."
Greek Verbs: ἀγαπάω (agapaō) – "loved"; μισέω (miseō) – "hated"
John 12:37
"But although he had performed so many signs before them, they did not believe in him."
Greek Verb: πιστεύω (pisteuō) – "believe"
Acts 7:51
"You stiff-necked people and uncircumcised in hearts and in your ears! You constantly resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so also do you!"
Greek Verb: ἀντιπίπτω (antipiptō) – "resist"
Acts 13:46
Act 13:45 But when the Jewish leaders [I.e. Judean leaders; lit. the Jews] saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to object to the statements made by Paul and even to abuse him.
Act 13:46 ¶ Then Paul and Barnabas boldly declared, “We had to speak God’s word to you first, but since you reject it and consider yourselves unworthy of eternal life, we are now going to turn to the gentiles.
Act 13:47 For that is what the Lord ordered us to do: ‘I have made you a light to the gentiles to be the means of salvation to the very ends of the earth.’” [Isa 49:6]
Act 13:48 ¶ When the gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord. Meanwhile, all who had been destined to eternal life believed,
Act 13:49 and the word of the Lord began to spread throughout the whole region.
Act 13:50 ¶ But the Jewish leaders [I.e. Judean leaders; lit. the Jews] stirred up devout women of high social standing and the officials in the city, started a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their territory.
Act 13:51 So Paul and Barnabas [Lit. So they] shook the dust off their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium.
Act 13:52 Meanwhile, the disciples continued to be full of joy and the Holy Spirit.
COULD they believe? Absolutely!
J.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Why ?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Clay
Active member
John 12:39. Διὰ τοῦτο) for this reason; because, namely, this just judgment on them had been foretold. The Evangelist stops short at this point: who may venture [strive to reach] farther? [First, they do not believe, as being refractory; John 12:39. Διὰ τοῦτο) for this reason; because, namely, this just judgment on them had been foretold. The Evangelist stops short at this point: who may venture [strive to reach] farther? [First, they do not believe, as being refractory; then, they cannot believe. They are mistaken, who suppose what is said to be in the inverse order: they could not believe; therefore they did not believe.—V. g.] They are mistaken, who suppose what is said to be in the inverse order: they could not believe; therefore they did not believe.—V. g.]
First they didn't believe then they were judged and made unable to believe,
See they could have believed but chose not to.
First they didn't believe then they were judged and made unable to believe,
See they could have believed but chose not to.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Can them in Jn 12:39 choose by their own freewill to believe in Jesus ?Yes or no
Clay
Active member
Oh and God can use cracked pots. Here is the scripture that says that.
The Potter and the Clay
18 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: “Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear, So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do."Then the word of the Lord came to me: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
Jeremiah 18:1-6
Nevertheless, many did believed in Him. See verse 42.
(John 12:42) Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue;
