Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?

[TomL]

Sure it was, for the conversion of the regenerate, and making worse the condemnation of the non elect reprobate. God has a twofold design in sending out the Gospel, for Salvation purposes and condemnation purposes. Hence its a savor of life unto life and death unto death 2 Cor 2:14-16

Sorry, but faith in the gospel precedes regeneration

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

James 1:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:18–25 (KJV 1900) — 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


as is also argued below

The Holy Spirit regenerates a person under the impact of the gospel message. Peter claimed that believers have been born again “through the living and enduring word of God” (1 Pet 1:23 NIV), which is “the word that was preached to you” (1 Pet 1:25 NIV). James stated that God “chose to give us birth through the word of truth” (Jas 1:18 NIV). God speaks through the gospel to summon people to Himself and enables them to respond in faith, thus forming the context in which regeneration occurs (Dunn, Baptism, 37–38).1

1 Kirk R. MacGregor, “Regeneration,” The Lexham Bible Dictionary (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2016).

And I note

The simple fact is The gospel requires faith to benefit

Hebrews 4:2 (LEB) — 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as those also did, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who heard it in faith.

Romans 1:16 (LEB) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

You offer benefit (regeneration, which is salvation) before faith contrary to scripture above

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, but faith in the gospel precedes regeneration

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

James 1:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:18–25 (KJV 1900) — 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


as is also argued below

The Holy Spirit regenerates a person under the impact of the gospel message. Peter claimed that believers have been born again “through the living and enduring word of God” (1 Pet 1:23 NIV), which is “the word that was preached to you” (1 Pet 1:25 NIV). James stated that God “chose to give us birth through the word of truth” (Jas 1:18 NIV). God speaks through the gospel to summon people to Himself and enables them to respond in faith, thus forming the context in which regeneration occurs (Dunn, Baptism, 37–38).1

1 Kirk R. MacGregor, “Regeneration,” The Lexham Bible Dictionary (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2016).

And I note

The simple fact is The gospel requires faith to benefit

Hebrews 4:2 (LEB) — 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as those also did, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who heard it in faith.

Romans 1:16 (LEB) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

You offer benefit (regeneration, which is salvation) before faith contrary to scripture above

The Gospel has a twofold purpose, to the lost, its not to make them saved, but to be a savor of death [condemnation]. Its never stated in scripture that the Gospel is to make lost people saved, but to the Lost/perishing, its foolishness 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[atpollard]

I feel so left out ... I have no one to shout past and ignore my posts as I repeat the same point over and over, like everyone else.

 

[Presby02]

Better think again

Does regeneration not supply life?

Does it supply a life that is temporal, or does it supply a life that is eternal?

Hmmmm

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

You, however, reverse what the verse states and posit life before believing

As for your questions, they were answered.

Knowing comes first in John 17:3.

Thus knowing comes before life

And In 1 John 5:20 Christ's coming first gives a more true knowledge, however the order between faith and life is not mentioned.

Now, do you want to seek a diversion and argue God was totally unknown before Christ's incarnation?

It does nothing to establish an order between faith and life

BTW, seeing as regeneration is how God saves, will you also argue salvation comes before believing, again contradicting many verses of scripture?

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Sorry. In John 17:3 k owing does not come first. Shall I quote it? I shall, "And this is eternal life, that they know you".... let's try again. Which comes first? Eternal life or knowing? I'm simply using your method.

In 1John 5:20 could you point the words "a more true knowledge". Assuming again?

So in 1 John 5:20 which comes first? Understanding or knowing Him who true?

Another. "And be baptized for the remission of sins". Which comes first in said text. Baptism or the remissionof sin? Using your method of proof texting.

Does word order by necessity imply logical order?????

 

[TomL]

Sorry. In John 17:3 k owing does not come first. Shall I quote it? I shall, "And this is eternal life, that they know you".... let's try again. Which comes first? Eternal life or knowing? I'm simply using your method.

Afraid not

The only true God] The way to attain this eternal life is to acknowledge, worship, and obey, the one only true God, and to accept as teacher, sacrifice, and Saviour, the Lord Jesus, the one and only true Messiah

Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 5, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 637.


3. This is life eternal. This is the source of eternal life; or it is in this manner that it is to be obtained. The knowledge of God and of his Son Jesus Christ is itself a source of unspeakable and eternal joy. Comp. ch. 11:25; 6:63; 12:50.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 353.


And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3.
He now enlightens the elect in the true knowledge of God; and in so doing, he declares the way in which we receive life. He does not here deal with the ultimate enjoyment of life which is our hope, but rather with the way men attain life. If we are to understand this statement rightly, we must first realize that unless God, who alone is life, illumine us, we are all dead. Where, therefore, he has shone, we possess him by faith; and at the same time enter into the possession of life.


Joseph Haroutunian and Louise Pettibone Smith, Calvin: Commentaries (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1958), 137.

as I stated

Better think again

Knowing comes first in John 17:3.

Thus knowing comes before life

And In 1 John 5:20 Christ's coming first gives a more true knowledge, however the order between faith and life is not mentioned.

Now, do you want to seek a diversion and argue God was totally unknown before Christ's incarnation?

It does nothing to establish an order between faith and life

BTW, seeing as regeneration is how God saves, will you also argue salvation comes before believing, again contradicting many verses of scripture?

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

In 1John 5:20 could you point the words "a more true knowledge". Assuming again?

Are you claiming the Old Testament saints before the incarnation had no knowledge of God?

or that there was no knowledge of God in the creation?

Romans 1:18–20 (LEB) — 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all impiety and unrighteousness of people, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is evident among them, for God made it clear to them. 20 For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse.

So in 1 John 5:20 which comes first? Understanding or knowing Him who true?

as was stated

And In 1 John 5:20 Christ's coming first gives a more true knowledge, however the order between faith and life is not mentioned.

Now, do you want to seek a diversion and argue God was totally unknown before Christ's incarnation?

It does nothing to establish an order between faith and life

You failed to addrerss this however

BTW, seeing as regeneration is how God saves, will you also argue salvation comes before believing, again contradicting many verses of scripture?

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Another. "And be baptized for the remission of sins". Which comes first in said text. Baptism or the remissionof sin? Using your method of proof texting.

Quote a whole verse with a reference

If you refer to

Acts 2:38 (KJV 1900) — 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The answer would be: Repentance comes before remission of sin which necessitates faith.

Seems faith precedes remission of sin, precedes salvation, precedes regeneration, the mechanism by which you are saved

Does word order by necessity imply logical order?????

Your reply suffers the following defect

it is not word order that demands faith before life but grammar

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Might have life is subjunctive

The subjunctive expresses a purpose in the verse

John 20:31 is telling readers that they should believe for the purpose of having life

it is clear believing precedes the might have life.

 

[Presby02]

Afraid not

The only true God] The way to attain this eternal life is to acknowledge, worship, and obey, the one only true God, and to accept as teacher, sacrifice, and Saviour, the Lord Jesus, the one and only true Messiah

Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 5, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 637.


3. This is life eternal. This is the source of eternal life; or it is in this manner that it is to be obtained. The knowledge of God and of his Son Jesus Christ is itself a source of unspeakable and eternal joy. Comp. ch. 11:25; 6:63; 12:50.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 353.


And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3.
He now enlightens the elect in the true knowledge of God; and in so doing, he declares the way in which we receive life. He does not here deal with the ultimate enjoyment of life which is our hope, but rather with the way men attain life. If we are to understand this statement rightly, we must first realize that unless God, who alone is life, illumine us, we are all dead. Where, therefore, he has shone, we possess him by faith; and at the same time enter into the possession of life.


Joseph Haroutunian and Louise Pettibone Smith, Calvin: Commentaries (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1958), 137.

as I stated

Better think again






Are you claiming the Old Testament saints before the incarnation had no knowledge of God?

or that there was no knowledge of God in the creation?

Romans 1:18–20 (LEB) — 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all impiety and unrighteousness of people, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is evident among them, for God made it clear to them. 20 For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse.






as was stated



You failed to addrerss this however







Quote a whole verse with a reference

If you refer to

Acts 2:38 (KJV 1900) — 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The answer would be: Repentance comes before remission of sin which necessitates faith.

Seems faith precedes remission of sin, precedes salvation, precedes regeneration, the mechanism by which you are saved






Your reply suffers the following defect

it is not word order that demands faith before life but grammar

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Might have life is subjunctive

The subjunctive expresses a purpose in the verse

John 20:31 is telling readers that they should believe for the purpose of having life

it is clear believing precedes the might have life.

Notice tom abandons his own hermeneutic method when it does not suit him.

Tom also refuses to answer a simple question. I answered his no problem.

Tom now admits word order does not necessarily imply logical sequence yet insists it does in John 20:31.

Tom dishonestly leaves out the word baptized in Acts 2:38. Ignores it all together. Yet if we were to follow his lead you must also be baptized for the remission of sin. Remember his question about John 20:31? Which comes first? So I ask him, in Acts 2:38 which comes first remission of sin or baptized?

 

[Presby02]

yes they must reverse the order to say:

But these are written, that ye might have life through his name and ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;

As tom does in the text in provided. That's okay??

 

[civic]

As tom does in the text in provided. That's okay??

the overwhelming order in the N.T. is faith comes before salvation, new birth, eternal life, healing etc......

1- hearing the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving life

 

[Studyman]

Sorry but you ignore the verses as they show

one must believe to have life.
Come to him to have life.
Look to him and believe to have life.



John 3:14–15 (LEB) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

John 5:39–40 (LEB) — 39 You search the scriptures because you think that you have eternal life in them, and it is these that testify about me. 40 And you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life.

John 6:40 (LEB) — 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Your handling of scripture is absolutely absurd. You allow your assumed interpretation of another verse to contradict many verses of scripture. It is a most atrocious way of handling scripture.

This is the exact same thing you do to others TomL, to justify your adopted religion. These Calvinists have their cherry-picked verses that they use as their "Demarcation point", to promote their Holy Lottery theory about Salvation and their "TULIP" philosophy. When you show them Scriptures which bring question to, or completely contradict their interpretations, they reject them completely. Just as you did in our last conversation, just as the Pharisees did when Jesus pointed out God's Word that HE Lived by to them. You can't see this because you are taught by this world's religious system to justify and defend your specific adopted religious sect. Calvinists are taught the very same Tradition to defend and promote their specific religious sect. JW's, SDA, Mormons, Catholics, and many others who "Call Jesus Lord, Lord," have been programed by this world's religious system to engage in the exact same tradition, for the purpose of promoting one or more of this world's religious sects. Eve was also convinced to engage in the exact same tradition and to promote to Adam, not the Words of God when they all were considered, but the actions she partook of based on the cherry-picked Words she was convinced to use as her "Demarcation point".

My sincere hope, even though I know it is doubtful, is that you or someone else following along, will step back and "Humble themself" to the WORDS that the God and Father of the Lord's Christ placed in Jesus' mouth. Not just the Words that can be used to justify one popular religious philosophy of this world over another, but ALL of HIS Words as we become "doers" of the Christ's Sayings, and not hearers only, Seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness as HE instructs.

I completely agree with your statement "Your handling of scripture is absolutely absurd. You allow your assumed interpretation of another verse to contradict many verses of scripture. It is a most atrocious way of handling scripture."

As you could see if you humbled yourself just a little, they are telling you the exact same thing you told me to justify your philosophy, "Um, Hello, it's Scripture".

 

[TomL]

Notice tom abandons his own hermeneutic method when it does not suit him.

This is the first false statement (see below)

Tom also refuses to answer a simple question. I answered his no problem.

This is the second falsehood also addressed below

Tom now admits word order does not necessarily imply logical sequence yet insists it does in John 20:31.

This is another false hood as I did not insist word order implies a logical sequence i argued based on the grammar seen below

Tom dishonestly leaves out the word baptized in Acts 2:38. Ignores it all together. Yet if we were to follow his lead you must also be baptized for the remission of sin. Remember his question about John 20:31? Which comes first? So I ask him, in Acts 2:38 which comes first remission of sin or baptized?

UM You do not believe water baptism is necessary to forgiveness of sin or salvation so why would you even mention it

(I hold it is a parentheses in the verse)

Afraid not

The only true God] The way to attain this eternal life is to acknowledge, worship, and obey, the one only true God, and to accept as teacher, sacrifice, and Saviour, the Lord Jesus, the one and only true Messiah

Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 5, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 637.


3. This is life eternal. This is the source of eternal life; or it is in this manner that it is to be obtained. The knowledge of God and of his Son Jesus Christ is itself a source of unspeakable and eternal joy. Comp. ch. 11:25; 6:63; 12:50.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 353.


And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3.
He now enlightens the elect in the true knowledge of God; and in so doing, he declares the way in which we receive life. He does not here deal with the ultimate enjoyment of life which is our hope, but rather with the way men attain life. If we are to understand this statement rightly, we must first realize that unless God, who alone is life, illumine us, we are all dead. Where, therefore, he has shone, we possess him by faith; and at the same time enter into the possession of life.


Joseph Haroutunian and Louise Pettibone Smith, Calvin: Commentaries (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1958), 137.

as I stated

Better think again


Are you claiming the Old Testament saints before the incarnation had no knowledge of God?

or that there was no knowledge of God in the creation?

Romans 1:18–20 (LEB) — 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all impiety and unrighteousness of people, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is evident among them, for God made it clear to them. 20 For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse.


as was stated

Quote a whole verse with a reference

If you refer to

Acts 2:38 (KJV 1900) — 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The answer would be: Repentance comes before remission of sin which necessitates faith.

Seems faith precedes remission of sin, precedes salvation, precedes regeneration, the mechanism by which you are saved

Again You complain about leaving out baptism, but you do not believe water baptism is necessary to forgiveness of sin or salvation

so why do you even mention it.

Will you deny you must believe to be repentant?

That you must believe before you receive remission of sin?

That you must believe before you receive the Holy Spirit


Note below I deny I argued based on word order and note it is grammar I argue based on in John 20:31

Your reply suffers the following defect

it is not word order that demands faith before life but grammar

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Might have life is subjunctive

The subjunctive expresses a purpose in the verse

John 20:31 is telling readers that they should believe for the purpose of having life

it is clear believing precedes the might have life.

You falsely reported I argued based on word order and left my hermeneutic.

That is obviously false

How did you miss the obvious?

This is the exact same thing you do to others TomL, to justify your adopted religion.

You have no idea what you are talking about

These Calvinists have their cherry-picked verses that they use as their "Demarcation point", to promote their Holy Lottery theory about Salvation and their "TULIP" philosophy.

You are confused as Calvinist do not have any verses which state man is saved before he believes

rather they argue based upon their doctrine of total inability

When you show them Scriptures which bring question to, or completely contradict their interpretations, they reject them completely. Just as you did in our last conversation,

You leave out an important fact.

I posted multiple verses which spoke of the change upon faith which you did not address but ran elsewhere and used your interpretation of those verses to deny the verses you never dealt with directly

An extremely poor way of handling scripture.

 

[Johann]

I feel so left out ... I have no one to shout past and ignore my posts as I repeat the same point over and over, like everyone else.

Let's "reason" together brother, unfortunately most of your words are "blurred"

J.

 

[Johann]

I feel so left out ... I have no one to shout past and ignore my posts as I repeat the same point over and over, like everyone else.

Join the club, I'm probably on "ignore" by many-not a problem.

J.

 

[Johann]

My sincere hope, even though I know it is doubtful, is that you or someone else following along, will step back and "Humble themself" to the WORDS that the God and Father of the Lord's Christ placed in Jesus' mouth. Not just the Words that can be used to justify one popular religious philosophy of this world over another, but ALL of HIS Words as we become "doers" of the Christ's Sayings, and not hearers only, Seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness as HE instructs.

Pearls of wisdom, hence the obedience to the Imperatives of Christ Jesus, obeying His commands.

J.

 

[Johann]

If our will is truly free, then why can't we be saved by following the law? Simply choose to do so.

That's the problem, our will is toooo "free"

J.

 

[Studyman]

You have no idea what you are talking about

I appreciate that you don't agree with my understanding of the Scriptures you posted as your "Demarcation Point", based on their meaning when more of The Christs and/or Paul's Words are considered with them.

You are confused as Calvinist do not have any verses which state man is saved before he believes

That is foolishness. They post cherry picked scriptures all the time, same as you. Calvinists post Scriptures they claim as their "Demarcation Point" the exact same way as you do. Do the verses they cherry-pick prove their religious philosophy? NO! Just like your cherry-picked scriptures don't prove that if you simply call Jesus Lord, Lord, you have passed from death unto life.

rather they argue based upon their doctrine of total inability

They use Cherry-picked Scriptures to make their "Demarcation Point" and ignore the scriptures that tell the complete story. The same as you, the same as in the very beginning, as I pointed out to you in detail, and you completely ignored, just as the Calvinists ignore you.

You leave out an important fact.

I posted multiple verses which spoke of the change upon faith which you did not address but ran elsewhere and used your interpretation of those verses to deny the verses you never dealt with directly

I never denied even one verse that you posted. I simply pointed out, in great detail, your tradition of rejecting the Scriptures which bring full understanding to the verses you quoted.

An extremely poor way of handling scripture.

I agree. This world's religious tradition you have engaged in, of using cherry-picked scriptures to justify their own specific religious sect, is an extremely wicked way to use the Scriptures. The Pharisees and Calvinists and Baptists and many other religious sects of this world, engage in this tradition of man. Jesus taught us not to be like unto them.

I advocate that men use Scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

This would mean "ALL" of God's Inspired words, not just the ones you use for your own specific "Demarcation Point".

 

[civic]

I feel so left out ... I have no one to shout past and ignore my posts as I repeat the same point over and over, like everyone else.

Now that’s hilarious

 

[Studyman]

Pearls of wisdom, hence the obedience to the Imperatives of Christ Jesus, obeying His commands.

J.

Yes, and it is also the Law of God given us through Moses, His Servant.

Duet. 18: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that "whosoever" will "not hearken" unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Acts 4: 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I believe this is why Jesus spoke about the importance of not just hearing His Words, or honoring Him with our lips, but actually becoming a "Doer" of His Sayings, as it is a Sin to ignore His Words in favor of popular religious traditions of this world. I think Paul understood this as well.

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

It is certainly a good discussion to have among men. And Thanks for the encouraging reply Johann.

 

[Johann]

Yes, and it is also the Law of God given us through Moses, His Servant.

Duet. 18: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that "whosoever" will "not hearken" unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Acts 4: 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I believe this is why Jesus spoke about the importance of not just hearing His Words, or honoring Him with our lips, but actually becoming a "Doer" of His Sayings, as it is a Sin to ignore His Words in favor of popular religious traditions of this world. I think Paul understood this as well.

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

It is certainly a good discussion to have among men. And Thanks for the encouraging reply Johann.

Always a pleasure and thank YOU for encouraging me-when I err, and I will, feel free to correct as I am all for correction.

I'll leave you with this re Rom. 2.13

Rom 2:12 For as many as ... sinned without law shall perish also without law: and as many as have sinned in ... law shall be judged by ... law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of ... law are just before God, but the doers of ... law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when ... Gentiles, which have not ... law, do by nature the things of the law, these, not having law, are a law to themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew forth the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience... bearing witness therewith, and their reckonings the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 2:17 But if, thou art called a Jew, and restest upon ... law, and gloriest of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest His desire, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 A preceptor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the external form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself ? thou that preachest not to steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest not to commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery ? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples ?
Rom 2:23 Thou that gloriest of ... law, through the transgression of the law dishonourest thou God ?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou practice law: but if thou be a breaker of law, thy circumcision has become uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by that which is written and circumcision art a transgressor of law ?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one in outward guise; neither is that circumcision, in outward guise in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one in secret ; and circumcision is that of the heart, in ... spirit, and not in that which is written ; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Johann.

 

[Studyman]

Always a pleasure and thank YOU for encouraging me-when I err, and I will, feel free to correct as I am all for correction.

I'll leave you with this re Rom. 2.13

Rom 2:12 For as many as ... sinned without law shall perish also without law: and as many as have sinned in ... law shall be judged by ... law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of ... law are just before God, but the doers of ... law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when ... Gentiles, which have not ... law, do by nature the things of the law, these, not having law, are a law to themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew forth the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience... bearing witness therewith, and their reckonings the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

Thanks Johann,

It wasn't my intent to correct you with my post, only to expand on the truth of what you posted. I'm a huge fan of Paul's Teaching, although he is difficult to understand, and I have witnessed many who take liberties with his words to justify different religious philosophies. I am glad you posted this and am eager to share my understanding of his teaching here.

I have spent many hours in study of this and other teachings of Paul that are hard to understand. I am a believer in trusting the Scriptures alone for understanding, although it would be much easier to just adopt the views of others who come in Christ's Name. But honestly, because of the many warnings of the other voice in the garden God placed me in, I only trust Scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. I could be wrong, but my understanding comes from Faith that God is able to reveal Himself to me through His Word if I consider them all as guidelines to Live By, and therefore, the following is my understanding, such as it is.

I would ask a question. Who was given the Oracles (Laws) of God according to Paul? Jews or Gentiles? Of course, you know the Scriptures pretty good, so you and I know it was the Jews who were given the Oracles (Laws) of God, not the Gentiles.

So do we have any examples of Gentiles in the Scriptures, that by nature do the things in the Law, although they were not given the Law? Rahab comes to mind, and the Canaanite woman who came to Jesus is another perfect example of this, in my view.

Josh. 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. 10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

Matt. 15: 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

So these two examples, I know there are probably many more that were not recorded, certainly shows forth God's Law written in their hearts, even though they were not "given the Law". Paul didn't say they never heard of God, never sought out God, never believed in God, only that they didn't "have" God's Law, like the Jews did.

Does God destroy men for Sin, who has never heard of Him? I don't believe so. Can a Gentile that doesn't have God's Law, "seek Him for glory and honour and immortality"? I believe he can.

Does the Bible say, "for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved", except for Gentiles who have not the Law? I don't believe so.

And what did Paul just get done saying?

Rom. 2: 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

In Paul's time there were for sure Gentiles that didn't "have" God's Law but heard of Him and picked up enough Crumbs (Bread) to Seek Him and retain what they heard in their hearts. Rahab did, the Canaanite woman did.

And Paul also said;

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. It sure seems to me like there are Gentiles who were not given the Oracles of God, but repented, turned to Him and changed.

I just don't believe Paul is saying that there were Gentile believers that never heard of the God of Abraham, that instinctively had God's definition of Sin written on their hearts. Although that is a popular interpretation.

How did the Canaanite woman who wasn't given the Oracles of God, have God's Law regarding the "Son of David" written on her heart, if she hadn't consumed what she heard?

Is. 65: 1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

Are these not the Gentiles that were not given the Oracles of God, but sought Him out anyway?

Rom 2:16 In the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 2:17 But if, thou art called a Jew, and restest upon ... law, and gloriest of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest His desire, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 A preceptor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the external form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself ? thou that preachest not to steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest not to commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery ? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples ?
Rom 2:23 Thou that gloriest of ... law, through the transgression of the law dishonourest thou God ?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou practice law: but if thou be a breaker of law, thy circumcision has become uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by that which is written and circumcision art a transgressor of law ?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one in outward guise; neither is that circumcision, in outward guise in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one in secret ; and circumcision is that of the heart, in ... spirit, and not in that which is written ; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Johann.

Therefore if the uncircumcision (Gentiles) keep the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision (Gentileness) "be counted for circumcision" (Jews)?

And shall not uncircumcision (Gentile) which is by nature, (In the Flesh) "if it fulfil the law", (Not a Transgressor) judge thee, who by that which is written and circumcision (In the Flesh) "art a transgressor of law" ?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; (DNA) neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: (Cut Foreskin)

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly ( Children of Abraham) and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Duet. 10: 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, (Jew or Gentile) nor taketh reward:

Well, there is a lot more Scriptures that comes to mind, which leads me to this understanding. But I wanted to share with you a perspective of a nobody, who believes all that is written in Scriptures.

Thanks for leaving me with Paul's words.

 

[Johann]

Thanks Johann,

It wasn't my intent to correct you with my post, only to expand on the truth of what you posted. I'm a huge fan of Paul's Teaching, although he is difficult to understand, and I have witnessed many who take liberties with his words to justify different religious philosophies. I am glad you posted this and am eager to share my understanding of his teaching here.

I have spent many hours in study of this and other teachings of Paul that are hard to understand. I am a believer in trusting the Scriptures alone for understanding, although it would be much easier to just adopt the views of others who come in Christ's Name. But honestly, because of the many warnings of the other voice in the garden God placed me in, I only trust Scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. I could be wrong, but my understanding comes from Faith that God is able to reveal Himself to me through His Word if I consider them all as guidelines to Live By, and therefore, the following is my understanding, such as it is.

I would ask a question. Who was given the Oracles (Laws) of God according to Paul? Jews or Gentiles? Of course, you know the Scriptures pretty good, so you and I know it was the Jews who were given the Oracles (Laws) of God, not the Gentiles.

So do we have any examples of Gentiles in the Scriptures, that by nature do the things in the Law, although they were not given the Law? Rahab comes to mind, and the Canaanite woman who came to Jesus is another perfect example of this, in my view.

Josh. 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. 10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

Matt. 15: 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

So these two examples, I know there are probably many more that were not recorded, certainly shows forth God's Law written in their hearts, even though they were not "given the Law". Paul didn't say they never heard of God, never sought out God, never believed in God, only that they didn't "have" God's Law, like the Jews did.

Does God destroy men for Sin, who has never heard of Him? I don't believe so. Can a Gentile that doesn't have God's Law, "seek Him for glory and honour and immortality"? I believe he can.

Does the Bible say, "for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved", except for Gentiles who have not the Law? I don't believe so.

And what did Paul just get done saying?

Rom. 2: 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

In Paul's time there were for sure Gentiles that didn't "have" God's Law but heard of Him and picked up enough Crumbs (Bread) to Seek Him and retain what they heard in their hearts. Rahab did, the Canaanite woman did.

And Paul also said;

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. It sure seems to me like there are Gentiles who were not given the Oracles of God, but repented, turned to Him and changed.

I just don't believe Paul is saying that there were Gentile believers that never heard of the God of Abraham, that instinctively had God's definition of Sin written on their hearts. Although that is a popular interpretation.

How did the Canaanite woman who wasn't given the Oracles of God, have God's Law regarding the "Son of David" written on her heart, if she hadn't consumed what she heard?

Is. 65: 1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

Are these not the Gentiles that were not given the Oracles of God, but sought Him out anyway?



Therefore if the uncircumcision (Gentiles) keep the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision (Gentileness) "be counted for circumcision" (Jews)?

And shall not uncircumcision (Gentile) which is by nature, (In the Flesh) "if it fulfil the law", (Not a Transgressor) judge thee, who by that which is written and circumcision (In the Flesh) "art a transgressor of law" ?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; (DNA) neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: (Cut Foreskin)

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly ( Children of Abraham) and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Duet. 10: 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, (Jew or Gentile) nor taketh reward:

Well, there is a lot more Scriptures that comes to mind, which leads me to this understanding. But I wanted to share with you a perspective of a nobody, who believes all that is written in Scriptures.

Thanks for leaving me with Paul's words.

Late here in South Africa-3.32 AM in the morning!

God bless and shalom to you and family brother.

Johann.