Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?

[brightfame52]

You ignored who the sheep were in John 10



You simply ignore scripture, argument, and all that is contrary to your view

Jn 10 makes my point, eternal life is for the Sheep

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry I addressed it but you never address rebuttal



and is, in fact, falsified by scripture

Scripture isnt written to people dead in sin, its to written to the regenerate so they may believe and have life experientially

 

[TomL]

Jn 10 makes my point, eternal life is for the Sheep

Sorry you simply ignored this

Sheep in John 10


John 10:4–6 (LEB) — 4 Whenever he sends out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 And they will never follow a stranger, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what it was that he was saying to them.

are already believers

They know his voice and follow him. They are not those of your theology who do not know his voice and do not follow him.

You are simply incapable of contextually handling scripture properly.

just as always you ignore anything contrary to your theology

 

[TomL]

Scripture isnt written to people dead in sin, its to written to the regenerate so they may believe and have life experientially

You ran from the scriptures and the questions they bring up

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Why did God harden so they would not believe if they had no ability to believe unless regenerated first?

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Why does Luke indicate they could have seen with their eyes had they not closed them?

Why does Luke indicate had their heart not grown gross they could have understood with their heart?

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

How were these able to believe temporarily?

Did God's regeneration fail or did they believe on their own?

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry you simply ignored this



just as always you ignore anything contrary to your theology

Jn 10 makes my point, its the sheep in Jn 20:31

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[TomL]

Jn 10 makes my point, its the sheep in Jn 20:31

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Still running like forrest Gump

Sheep in John 10


John 10:4–6 (LEB) — 4 Whenever he sends out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 And they will never follow a stranger, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what it was that he was saying to them.

are already believers

They know his voice and follow him. They are not those of your theology who do not know his voice and do not follow him.

You are simply incapable of contextually handling scripture properly.

and for some strange reason you post a verse which refutes your theology

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It's first belief and then life; not your convoluted life then belief

 

[brightfame52]

Still running like forrest Gump



and for some strange reason you post a verse which refutes your theology

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It's first belief and then life; not your convoluted life then belief

Jn 10 makes my point, you hustling backwards

 

[civic]

Still running like forrest Gump



and for some strange reason you post a verse which refutes your theology

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It's first belief and then life; not your convoluted life then belief

Ditto

 

[Presby02]

Don't run

What must one do before you may have life in this verse?

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Stop it with the running accusation. No one is scared of you and your scary apologetic talent. LOL

Now to answer you alleged gotcha question. Believing obviously comes first in this particular text.

Now I have a question for you. In John 17:3 which come first knowing God or eternal life?

How about 1 John 5:20? Which comes first? The Son coming and giving understanding or our knowing Him?

 

[TomL]

Stop it with the running accusation. No one is scared of you and your scary apologetic talent. LOL

Now to answer you alleged gotcha question. Believing obviously comes first in this particular text.

So believing comes before life.

Now is regeneration not how spiritual life is given?

How then does believing not precede regeneration?

Now I have a question for you. In John 17:3 which come first knowing God or eternal life?

How about 1 John 5:20? Which comes first? The Son coming and giving understanding or our knowing Him?

Knowing comes first in John 17:3

In 1 John 5:20 Christ's coming first gives a more true knowledge, however the order between faith and life is not mentioned.

So we are back to how does John 20:31 not show faith precedes regeneration?

 

[Presby02]

So believing comes before life.

Now is regeneration not how spiritual life is given?

How then does believing not precede regeneration?




Knowing comes first in John 17:3

In 1 John 5:20 Christ's coming first gives a more true knowledge, however the order between faith and life is not mentioned.

So we are back to how does John 20:31 not show faith precedes regeneration?

Nope. Eternal life does. Read it again. Remember we are using your proof texting method.

That's not what I asked. In the text which comes first? Christ coming and giving understanding or knowing? And there is no "MORE" in the text. Presuming are we???

 

[TomL]

Nope. Eternal life does. Read it again. Remember we are using your proof texting method.

That's not what I asked. In the text which comes first? Christ coming and giving understanding or knowing? And there is no "MORE" in the text. Presuming are we???

Better think again

Does regeneration not supply life?

Does it supply a life that is temporal, or does it supply a life that is eternal?

Hmmmm

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

You, however, reverse what the verse states and posit life before believing

As for your questions, they were answered.

Knowing comes first in John 17:3.

Thus knowing comes before life

And In 1 John 5:20 Christ's coming first gives a more true knowledge, however the order between faith and life is not mentioned.

Now, do you want to seek a diversion and argue God was totally unknown before Christ's incarnation?

It does nothing to establish an order between faith and life

BTW, seeing as regeneration is how God saves, will you also argue salvation comes before believing, again contradicting many verses of scripture?

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[TomL]

Ditto

Calvinists have a difficult time coming to grips with this verse

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[TomL]

Jn 10 makes my point, you hustling backwards

Sorry, John 10 refuted you, and you failed to address my argument

Sheep in John 10


John 10:4–6 (LEB) — 4 Whenever he sends out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 And they will never follow a stranger, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what it was that he was saying to them.

are already believers

They know his voice and follow him. They are not those of your theology who do not know his voice and do not follow him.

You are simply incapable of contextually handling scripture properly.

As already noted you do not address rebuttal or exegete passages of scripture

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, John 10 refuted you, and you failed to address my argument



As already noted you do not address rebuttal or exegete passages of scripture

No it didnt refute me and you made no point You just quote a scripture and leave at that, to make your opponent do all the work. John 10 makes my point, thats who Christ died for, His Sheep vs 11,15, thats who believes in Him Vs 26 and that's who He gives life Vs 10 and eternal life Vs 28

 

[brightfame52]

Stop it with the running accusation. No one is scared of you and your scary apologetic talent. LOL

Now to answer you alleged gotcha question. Believing obviously comes first in this particular text.

Now I have a question for you. In John 17:3 which come first knowing God or eternal life?

How about 1 John 5:20? Which comes first? The Son coming and giving understanding or our knowing Him?

Eternal life comes first, the reason for giving eternal life is that they know[spiritually] God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. Having eternal life is a prerequisite for knowing God spiritually and Jesus Christ, which knowing includes Faith. The natural man has no spiritual knowledge of God or Christ.

 

[civic]

Calvinists have a difficult time coming to grips with this verse

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

yes they must reverse the order to say:

But these are written, that ye might have life through his name and ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;

 

[brightfame52]

yes they must reverse the order to say:

But these are written, that ye might have life through his name and ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;

But scripture isnt written to the unregenerate, not ever, always to the saints.

 

[TomL]

But scripture isnt written to the unregenerate, not ever, always to the saints.

Sorry the gospel was to go to all men

Mark 16:15 (LEB) — 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry the gospel was to go to all men

Mark 16:15 (LEB) — 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Sure it was, for the conversion of the regenerate, and making worse the condemnation of the non elect reprobate. God has a twofold design in sending out the Gospel, for Salvation purposes and condemnation purposes. Hence its a savor of life unto life and death unto death 2 Cor 2:14-16