Is Jesus the Christ a human Person?

[APAK]

no one worshipped moses all Jesus followers worshipped Him as God. Otherwise these Jews were guilty of idolatry and Jesus would of been sinning by allowing them to worship Him

Now if you are really serious or are still capable in learning something meaningful on this topic and not so quick to add in a deliberate fly into the ointment, we might get somewhere in this discussion.

I prefer not to follow shadows or new shiny objects you want me to look at, as obvious distractions.

And worshipping Moses or Jesus or not, is not the subject here the last time I looked. That's for another discussion. Melding these two ideas as one not only creates confusion, it is another great example of (compound) oversimplification done by one that does understand scriptural context or does not care about, only to serve your needs, whatever they may be.

Let me know if you want to continue here or I will bow out now before it gets more confusing.

 

[APAK]

Oh no, plenty Scripture reference I can give you-in Hebrew if you would like -that Yehoshuwa Ha- Mashiach is YHVH.
Problem as I see it here is that somehow Messiah is inferior-just a Man, Ben of Adam-Ben of YHVH.
Nothing more, nothing less, and to me this is tantamount of blasphemy-as the Scriptures hold a high Christological view of Yeshua ben David.
As always-the Deity of Messiah is under attack.
No need to reply.
J.

Johann you are nor serious right mate? You have actual scripture verses within chapters that say Yahshua is YHWH. Well I might need time to recover from this one if it is true...not! That would be stunning and new news to me. And I hope you are not meaning to substitute, one word/symbol for another aka oversimplification that means nothing.

So I hope you are not just substituting in words and equating them into others as a child learns word meanings or their additions....WITHOUT any context!

Bring it on Johann. You know you have done this trick before....right, only the simpleton and childmind with buy it I'm afraid.

So before you go off and speak to the other element you are introducing into this post, that the Messiah is a human being, tackle the first one I lead out with first.

Your mental processing of this discussion is coincidently similar to civic's who brought in another element before really addressing the first one, as if he cared in the first place...uncanny..You have a common mental picture of how to discuss scripture...

 

[e v e]

“I asked that question of so many of my friends recently, and almost all, save for only one, gave me the wrong answer. Some even became indignant for my even asking the question. Why they became indignant, I have no clue. Nevertheless it is an important question about the person of Jesus the Christ.

1. Is Jesus the Christ a human person?
2. Is Jesus the Christ a Divine person?
3. Is He both?
4. Is He neither?

What answer do you have for each of those four simple questions? … “

(Bob Stanley, “Is Jesus the Christ a Human Person? Think before you answer that question.”)

Is Jesus Christ a human person?

He is not human in the fallen matrix type meaning you intend. His body is not a flesh body.

He is of the same type of nature of God.

His body is of eden paradise nature, not of the nature of this current earth.

His nature is Deity.

This type flesh we have is an animal body that rots.

It is flesh = sin nature.


.

 

[TibiasDad]

No
Yes
No
No- only a Divine Person

Is to be human to be a person?
Was Jesus fully human?

Doug

 

[civic]

Is to be human to be a person?
Was Jesus fully human?

Doug

Yes

 

[TibiasDad]

Yes

Then Jesus was a person by being human, correct?

Doug

 

[synergy]

Thanks. If that’s what you’re persuaded is true then you should stop listening to me and go with the orthodox trinitarians.

They aren’t looking at the verses through Jewish eyes. They’re looking at the verses through trinitarian eyes.

Jesus isn’t a trinitarian, and neither are his apostles. They are Jewish monotheists.

My spiritual enemy will tell you that Jesus is a trinitarian, and so too are his apostles. You will tell me that too.

We are looking at it through the Diaspora Jewish eyes (including Berean eyes) that diligently consulted their LXX Bibles to arrive at the truth. The Jewish Diaspora were the Elect of God that were intentionally dispersed by God throughout the Roman Empire in order spread the Salvific Gospel of the Divine Word of God, upon their conversion. This web site has adopted the Berean name for a reason. The converted Jewish Diaspora is not your enemy.

 

[APAK]

Now if you are really serious or are still capable in learning something meaningful on this topic and not so quick to add in a deliberate fly into the ointment, we might get somewhere in this discussion.

I prefer not to follow shadows or new shiny objects you want me to look at, as obvious distractions.

And worshipping Moses or Jesus or not, is not the subject here the last time I looked. That's for another discussion. Melding these two ideas as one not only creates confusion, it is another great example of (compound) oversimplification done by one that does understand scriptural context or does not care about, only to serve your needs, whatever they may be.

Let me know if you want to continue here or I will bow out now before it gets more confusing.

@civic to complete the new thought you were addressing that does not change anything of who is Elohim and why....:

Moses made Elohim by the one true Elohim
Moses was not the Son of Elohim
Yahshua made Elohim by the one true Elohim
Yahshua is the true Son of Elohim because he created him

Therefore Moses was not worshipped, although honored by many, and Yahshua was also honored and worshipped only because he was the true Son of God/Elohim.

Strong note: The disciples and others who followed Yahshua would not have worshipped him as they were Israelites/Jews. They only truly worshipped the Father, Elohim. If I were there with the disciples I would have done the same. Cannot make the true Son of Elohim the same as Father Elohim you know, that would be considered idolatry.

 

[Matthias]

We are looking at it through the Diaspora Jewish eyes (including Berean eyes) that diligently consulted their LXX Bibles to arrive at the truth. The Jewish Diaspora were the Elect of God that were intentionally dispersed by God throughout the Roman Empire in order spread the Gospel upon their conversion. This web site has adopted the Berean name for a reason. The converted Jewish Diaspora is not your enemy.

The converted Jew didn’t exchange the one God of Israel for another. The one God of the converted Jew is the same one God who is the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah.

 

[synergy]

The converted Jew didn’t exchange the one God of Israel for another.

Nobody said they did. Send the quote if you have any.

The one God of the converted Jew is the same one God who is the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah.

We believe in One God in three Persons. Do you believe Jesus when he said that He existed as the "I Am" even before Abraham existed? If not, you are on the Pharisaic side and not on the converted Jewish Berean side. The converted Jewish Bereans are not your enemy.

 

[civic]

Then Jesus was a person by being human, correct?

Doug

Yes a man , anthropos

 

[Matthias]

Nobody said they did. Send the quote if you have any

So we’re agreed then that the Jews who came to believe that a fellow Jew is the Messiah promised, raised up and sent by the one God of Israel didn’t become trinitarians. The God of the Jews is the Father alone.

We believe in One God in three Persons.

I don’t know who you’re speaking for but you and some others here are trinitarians.

Jesus isn’t a trinitarian. His one God is the Father alone. His God is the one God of Israel.

There is no God besides the one God of Israel. There is no other God who could be his God. Everything else is idols.

Do you believe Jesus when he said that He existed as the "I Am" even before Abraham existed? If not you are on the Pharisaic side and not on the Jewish Berean side.

The one God of the Pharisee is the same one God of the Messiah -> the Father.

 

[civic]

Jesus like the Prophets and Apostles were trinitarians who believed in the Plural God of the Bible.

 

[Johann]

Your mental processing of this discussion is coincidently similar to civic's who brought in another element before really addressing the first one, as if he cared in the first place...uncanny..You have a common mental picture of how to discuss scripture...

Really?

 

[civic]

Christianity like Judaism and Islam are the 3 major Monotheistic world religions. They each believe in the One God. Every single unbiased source acknowledges this truth.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Wrangler]

Somehow it makes sense to them that someone whose God isn’t the Trinity is a trinitarian.

If I had taught something like that my employment would have been terminated on the spot. (And rightfully so.)

IDK what's worse

1. The complete violation of logic in what they claim is the nature of God;
2. That believing a complete violation of logic is a requirement for salvation.

 

[Matthias]

IDK what's worse

1. The complete violation of logic in what they claim is the nature of God;
2. That believing a complete violation of logic is a requirement for salvation.

It’s a mystery religion.

 

[civic]

Yes the uni mystery is at work

 

[TibiasDad]

Yes a man , anthropos

In your Hypostatic Union thread, you say,

“We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God.” (Emphasis mine)

Personhood is part of the Imago Dei “planted in our nature by God”. I don’t see how you can two wills or minds without having a person relative to each. IOW, if there are two minds there must be two persons, otherwise you have one person with two minds/wills. (Which kind of reminds me of Piper’s two wills of God scenario…)

Doug

 

[civic]

In your Hypostatic Union thread, you say,

“We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God.” (Emphasis mine)

Personhood is part of the Imago Dei “planted in our nature by God”. I don’t see how you can two wills or minds without having a person relative to each. IOW, if there are two minds there must be two persons, otherwise you have one person with two minds/wills. (Which kind of reminds me of Piper’s two wills of God scenario…)

Doug

There is not a 1 to 1 correlation with God when it comes to nature and person.
God has One Divine nature yet 3 Persons. There are not 3 Divine natures within God only 1.
The Son is a Divine Person having a divine nature and a human nature. His Person is divine, not human.
the unity of the divine will (the idea that though God exists in three Persons, the Triune God does not have three separate wills—a necessary doctrine if the three Persons share the same nature, since “will” is a property of nature not of persons