Is Jesus the Christ a human Person?

[Johann]

Here is the reformed mr brown himself taken from ligonier.

Heresy in the Early Church by Harold Brown

"There is nothing new under the sun," the Preacher wrote (Eccl. 1:9). According to Professor Klaus Haacker of Wuppertal, Germany, one of the primary sources of

www.ligonier.org

Even in the New Testament itself, we find evidence that there were disputes about doctrine among believers. Was there never a time when all Christians knew right Christian doctrine? Was there never actually a faith “once for all delivered to the saints”? How could a third-, sixth-, 16th-, or 20th-century Christian know what to believe when even in the New Testament we see evidence that heresy was present alongside of solid doctrine, almost from the very birth of the church? There is indeed a faith once delivered to the saints.

It is a curious fact about Christianity that it is the only major religion many of whose paid, full-time priests, prelates, and professors spend much time and energy trying to show that it is false and should be totally changed or perhaps even abandoned. Buddhists do not do this; neither do Hindus. Muslims certainly do not, or if they do they do not live long. This shows, I believe, that the religion of Scripture, historic, biblical Christianity, is obnoxious to the Prince of Darkness, so that he makes a point of tempting the professors and priests of Christianity to undermine their own doctrines.

In my book Heresies, I follow the practice of the early Christians in defining as heresies only those doctrines or teachings that change the nature of the faith so fundamentally that it no longer can be trusted to be saving faith. There are three principal concepts dealt with in the New Testament that can be defined as heretical in this sense. Curiously enough—or perhaps not so curiously, if we recall the Preacher’s words above—these three New Testament problems persist.

They are (1) legalism (often called Judaizing in the days of the early church), which can also be called salvation by works or works righteousness; (2) the opposite concept of antinomianism; and perhaps most significant for our own day (3) the curious complex of fantastic ideas and doctrines that goes by the name of Gnosticism.

An excerpt of this link and book marked it-thanks @civic

 

[APAK]

Congrats how many years ?

From a Uni perspective it is: 2 people with each having separate and different personalities where both are human and not divine persons identified as ONE) * (50 years of working in union in one purpose (at times...most of the time anyway....) = 50 years

See where the mind goes when it cannot yet stabilize yet on one thought...like mixing scripture with human ideas I read a lot...

Thanks for asking.

 

[synergy]

Here is the reformed mr brown himself taken from ligonier. I already have enough on this topic in my library. Others might find it useful to pick up a used out of print copy from placed like abebooks for cheap.

Heresy in the Early Church by Harold Brown

"There is nothing new under the sun," the Preacher wrote (Eccl. 1:9). According to Professor Klaus Haacker of Wuppertal, Germany, one of the primary sources of

www.ligonier.org

Thanks. Since "there is nothing new under sun" as the book confirms, I don't understand @Matthias' point in mentioning this book? If anything, it proves that Orthodoxy has prevailed and will always prevail against any and all heresies.

 

[civic]

From a Uni perspective it is: 2 people with each having separate and different personalities where both are human and not divine persons identified as ONE) * (50 years of working in union in one purpose (at times...most of the time anyway....) = 50 years

See where the mind goes when it cannot yet stabilize yet on one thought...like mixing scripture with human ideas I read a lot...

Thanks for asking.

Wow congrats again on the 50th. That is a biggie.

 

[civic]

Thanks. Since "there is nothing new under sun" as the book confirms, I don't understand @Matthias' point in mentioning this book? If anything, it proves that Orthodoxy has prevailed and will always prevail against any and all heresies.

It is strange why anyone would recommend something they believe to be false and heretical. Personally I would not recommend any Watchtower info to anyone to read with the exception of someone wanting to be able to reach them as a mission field. Then you need to familiarize yourself with their doctrines.

Its like they teach in college. To be prepared for a debate you learn both sides of the argument because you might be called to defend one side or the other and you do not know which side you will have to defend. So years ago I did just that with JW's and bought several books from x JW's, Bowman ,Martin and a few others written as apologetic books against their teachings. So I started learning early on in the 80's on how to defend the Trinity and Deity of Christ with them when they came knocking on my door. I use to invite them in my house and have had so many discussions I lost count lol. That continued online on CARM in the early 2000's and has not stopped since.

 

[APAK]

Wow congrats again on the 50th. That is a biggie.

Met my wife on my first USAF assignment in MT, after tech school (they changed my assignment in the last week from Cambodia) not even a citizen yet....she from Ohio, me from England, to NZ to US

 

[civic]

Met my wife on my first USAF assignment in MT, after tech school (they changed my assignment in the last week from Cambodia) not even a citizen yet....she from Ohio, me from England, to NZ to US

My daughter married her teacher at YWAM ( Youth with a Mission) in England. My son in law is Brittish

 

[Behold]

Here‘s the question that I think needs to be asked: Is it the doctrine that is the problem, or is it the zeal of those who held the doctrine that is the problem?

Part of the problem is, that in those "times", this type of behavior was normalized.
It was common for people to be beheaded in public, or burned or tortured.
This was their "Netflix" and "Cable TV"........so, to a degree, we can make a slight allowance for this barbaric behavior that we find being committed by the Cult of Mary and by some Protestants.
No one is burning and cutting off Heads, these days.... unless its a Missionary being murdered somewhere, today, in the world.

But on the other hand, we have to consider that there was MURDER and Malicious intent in the heart of those who "put to death" those they didnt like, or who didnt agree with their theology.
The MURDER is pre-meditated in the heart, before it happens as the deed.

 

[civic]

Part of the problem is, that in those "times", this type of behavior was normalized.
It was common for people to be beheaded in public, or burned or tortured.
This was their "Netflix" and "Cable TV"........so, to a degree, we can make a slight allowance for this barbaric behavior that we find being committed by the Cult of Mary and by some Protestants.
No one is burning and cutting off Heads, these days.... unless its a Missionary being murdered somewhere, today, in the world.

But on the other hand, we have to consider that there was MURDER and Malicious intent in the heart of those who "put to death" those they didnt like, or who didnt agree with their theology.
The MURDER is pre-meditated in the heart, before it happens as the deed.

Yes which is why Jesus says if you hate in your heart you are guilty of murder.

 

[Behold]

Even in the New Testament itself, we find evidence that there were disputes about doctrine among believers. Was there never a time when all Christians knew right Christian doctrine?

Yes.

It was when Paul met with the Apostles in Acts 15, and helped them all understand His Teaching./Doctrine.

They had a long discussion, and it was settled.

Later, Martin Luther took the real believers out of the clutches of the Dark Age "church" (Cult of Mary)... and just as soon as He had that Protestant LIGHT up and running, in comes the DEVIL with John Calvin ... and this Cross denying monster's theology has poisoned MILLIONS of Christians, ever since, per year.

 

[APAK]

My daughter married her teacher at YWAM ( Youth with a Mission) in England. My son in law is Brittish

Things and people have a way of moving into our lives, and without our will, insight and initial understanding, as the Spirit moves in my estimation...

I guess I had better stay on thread topic and speak to the word and HS that moved through and made its home in the human person we now know as our lord, high priest, the anointed one, saviour, prophet and savior. And this process of abiding and living as one, continues today with Yahshua in the position of the highest authority under God. The Father continues to perform miracles through/by his Son today, as the ages before, now and to come were made for him and through him, as we read in Hebrews .

 

[Behold]

Yes which is why Jesus says if you hate in your heart you are guilty of murder.

Amen.

 

[civic]

Amen.

and here is the kicker the Apostle John in 1 John takes hate and defines it as apathy/indifference when he contrasts love/hate in his epistle.

 

[Matthias]

Even in the New Testament itself, we find evidence that there were disputes about doctrine among believers. Was there never a time when all Christians knew right Christian doctrine? Was there never actually a faith “once for all delivered to the saints”? How could a third-, sixth-, 16th-, or 20th-century Christian know what to believe when even in the New Testament we see evidence that heresy was present alongside of solid doctrine, almost from the very birth of the church? There is indeed a faith once delivered to the saints.

It is a curious fact about Christianity that it is the only major religion many of whose paid, full-time priests, prelates, and professors spend much time and energy trying to show that it is false and should be totally changed or perhaps even abandoned. Buddhists do not do this; neither do Hindus. Muslims certainly do not, or if they do they do not live long. This shows, I believe, that the religion of Scripture, historic, biblical Christianity, is obnoxious to the Prince of Darkness, so that he makes a point of tempting the professors and priests of Christianity to undermine their own doctrines.

In my book Heresies, I follow the practice of the early Christians in defining as heresies only those doctrines or teachings that change the nature of the faith so fundamentally that it no longer can be trusted to be saving faith. There are three principal concepts dealt with in the New Testament that can be defined as heretical in this sense. Curiously enough—or perhaps not so curiously, if we recall the Preacher’s words above—these three New Testament problems persist.

They are (1) legalism (often called Judaizing in the days of the early church), which can also be called salvation by works or works righteousness; (2) the opposite concept of antinomianism; and perhaps most significant for our own day (3) the curious complex of fantastic ideas and doctrines that goes by the name of Gnosticism.

An excerpt of this link and book marked it-thanks @civic

I hope you’ll be able to obtain a copy and read it. It’s an easy read. The author writes for the purpose of persuading people to come to orthodoxy and, for those like myself who have left orthodoxy, to return to orthodoxy.

It’s one of my favorite books. I quote from it often.

 

[Johann]

I hope you’ll be able to obtain a copy and read it. It’s an easy read. The author writes for the purpose of bringing people to orthodoxy and, for those like myself who have left orthodoxy, to return to orthodoxy.

It’s one of my favorite books. I quote from it often.

I cannot afford to purchase books via Amazon brother-but if you have a book in PDF format I will peruse it.
Johann.

 

[Matthias]

I cannot afford to purchase books via Amazon brother-but if you have a book in PDF format I will peruse it.
Johann.

I’ll look around to see if I can find it in PDF format.

I did a quick search on ABE Books. Here is a link to my search results.

Heresies by Harold O J Brown - AbeBooks

Heresies: The Image of Christ in the Mirror of Heresy and Orthodoxy from the Apostles to the Present by Brown, Harold O. J. and a great selection of related books, art and collectibles available now at AbeBooks.com.

www.abebooks.com

I purchase a lot of used books inexpensively through them. (Let’s leave my wife and her rule about me bringing books into the house out of this!) It’s a good alternative to Amazon. That may or may not work for you but I wanted to make you aware of it.

 

[Matthias]

I cannot afford to purchase books via Amazon brother-but if you have a book in PDF format I will peruse it.
Johann.

I located several links to the book in PDF format but they aren’t links that I’ve used before so I don’t know if they’re safe or not. I’ll leave it to you to search for it in PDF format and decide wether or not you want to download it from any of those sources.

I’ve also located a review of the book from a trinitarian website that you’ve probably used yourself many times. I’m attaching a link of the review for you here.

Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church | Bible.org

by Dr. Harold O. J. Brown Hendrickson Publishers, Inc. 512 pages March 1998. This book was originally published in 1984 under the title Heresies : The Image of Christ in the Mirror of Heresy and Orthodoxy from the Apostles to the Present. There was a very good review by Joseph Sobran in the...

bible.org

As you’ll see, bible.org also recommends the book to trinitarian and non-trinitarian readers.

 

[Johann]

I’ll look around to see if I can find it in PDF format.

I did a quick search on ABE Books. Here is a link to my search results.

Heresies by Harold O J Brown - AbeBooks

Heresies: The Image of Christ in the Mirror of Heresy and Orthodoxy from the Apostles to the Present by Brown, Harold O. J. and a great selection of related books, art and collectibles available now at AbeBooks.com.

www.abebooks.com

I purchase a lot of used books inexpensively through them. (Let’s leave my wife and her rule about me bringing books into the house out of this!) It’s a good alternative to Amazon. That may or may not work for you but I wanted to make you aware of it.

There's no book in PDF format brother but found this-I don't have a wife lol!

4. Focus on the Evangelical World. I do not think that a true system of theology
can be constructed from within what we may call the “liberal” theological tradition—
that is, by people who deny the absolute truthfulness of the Bible, or who do not think
the words of the Bible to be God’s very words (see chapter 4, on the authority of
Scripture). For this reason, the other writers I interact with in this book are mostly
within what is today called the larger “conservative evangelical” tradition—from the
great Reformers John Calvin and Martin Luther, down to the writings of evangelical
scholars today. I write as an evangelical and for evangelicals. This does not mean that
those in the liberal tradition have nothing valuable to say; it simply means that
differences with them almost always boil down to differences over the nature of the
Bible and its authority. The amount of doctrinal agreement that can be reached by
people with widely divergent bases of authority is quite limited. I am thankful for my
evangelical friends who write extensive critiques of liberal theology, but I do not
think that everyone is called to do that, or that an extensive analysis of liberal views is
the most helpful way to build a positive system of theology based on the total
truthfulness of the whole Bible. In fact, somewhat like the boy in Hans Christian
Andersen’s tale who shouted, “The Emperor has no clothes!” I think someone needs
to say that it is doubtful that liberal theologians have given us any significant insights
into the doctrinal teachings of Scripture that are not already to be found in evangelical
writers--

https://fbcfairburn.com/app/uploads/2015/04/Systematic_Theology_-_Wayne_Grudem.pdf

Any good?

 

[Matthias]

There's no book in PDF format brother but found this-I don't have a wife lol!

4. Focus on the Evangelical World. I do not think that a true system of theology
can be constructed from within what we may call the “liberal” theological tradition—
that is, by people who deny the absolute truthfulness of the Bible, or who do not think
the words of the Bible to be God’s very words (see chapter 4, on the authority of
Scripture). For this reason, the other writers I interact with in this book are mostly
within what is today called the larger “conservative evangelical” tradition—from the
great Reformers John Calvin and Martin Luther, down to the writings of evangelical
scholars today. I write as an evangelical and for evangelicals. This does not mean that
those in the liberal tradition have nothing valuable to say; it simply means that
differences with them almost always boil down to differences over the nature of the
Bible and its authority. The amount of doctrinal agreement that can be reached by
people with widely divergent bases of authority is quite limited. I am thankful for my
evangelical friends who write extensive critiques of liberal theology, but I do not
think that everyone is called to do that, or that an extensive analysis of liberal views is
the most helpful way to build a positive system of theology based on the total
truthfulness of the whole Bible. In fact, somewhat like the boy in Hans Christian
Andersen’s tale who shouted, “The Emperor has no clothes!” I think someone needs
to say that it is doubtful that liberal theologians have given us any significant insights
into the doctrinal teachings of Scripture that are not already to be found in evangelical
writers--

https://fbcfairburn.com/app/uploads/2015/04/Systematic_Theology_-_Wayne_Grudem.pdf

Any good?

Grudem is an orthodox trinitarian. His Systematic Theology would be fine to read from that perspective.

 

[civic]

Grudem is an orthodox trinitarian. His Systematic Theology would be fine to read from that perspective.

He is a reformed calvinist. I have his systematic theology in book form .