Is God a Narcissist in Calvinism ?

[civic]

This from AI

The idea that Calvinism makes God a narcissist creating vessels of wrath for destruction is a common criticism, stemming from the doctrine of predestination, where God sovereignly chooses some for salvation (vessels of mercy) and leaves others to their sin (vessels of wrath) to display His justice and glory. While Calvinists assert God's glory requires revealing His attributes, including wrath, through the damned (Romans 9), critics argue this portrays God as unjust, tyrannical, or even the author of evil, contrasting it with Jesus's humble, other-directed nature. Defenders counter that God's glory isn't selfish narcissism but His inherent, perfect nature, and that His decree of reprobation is a passive "passing over," not an active creation of evil, serving His greater good.

The Criticism: God as Narcissist/Tyrant

• Rigging the Game: Critics suggest God preordains everything, rigging history so people have no real choice, all to praise Himself, making Him seem like a self-centered "It's all about me" figure.
• Author of Evil: Some argue that by ordaining sin and damnation, God becomes the ultimate cause of evil, a "moral monster" or "tyrant".
• Unjust Damnation: How can God be just punishing those He foreordained for destruction, especially when He knew they'd end up damned but created them anyway

The Core Tension

• God's Character vs. Human Understanding: The debate hinges on whether God's sovereign plan, focused on His glory, aligns with human concepts of justice, love, and fairness, with differing views on whether God causes sin or merely permits it for His higher purposes

Arguments that Calvinism Portrays a Narcissistic God

Critics argue that the God described in Calvinist theology meets the criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) as defined by the DSM-5.

• Lack of Empathy: Critics claim that creating individuals specifically for destruction ("vessels of wrath") demonstrates a lack of empathy, treating humans as mere objects to "show off" divine power.
• Grandiose Self-Importance: The biblical God's insistence on constant praise and the belief that the entire universe exists solely for His glory are seen by skeptics as hallmarks of grandiosity and an "appetite for applause".
• Human-centric Narcissism: Some philosophers argue that any concept of God is inherently narcissistic because it presumes that an all-powerful creator would be "petty" enough to care about minute human behaviors

The question of whether creating "vessels of wrath" is unloving is a central conflict in Christian theology, with different traditions offering radically different interpretations.

1. The Argument for It Being Unloving
Critics argue that if God creates individuals knowing and decreeing their eternal destruction for His own glory, it contradicts the biblical assertion that "God is love" (1 John 4:8).

• Lack of Redemptive Purpose: Some theologians argue that wrath and judgment can only be seen as "loving" if they serve a redemptive or corrective purpose; eternal destruction without hope for restoration appears purely punitive.
• Predestined Despair: Critics of "double predestination" (the idea that God actively chooses who to damn) argue it makes the gospel "bad news" for the majority of humanity, portraying God as a deterministic "puppet master" rather than a loving father.

lets discuss

 

[TedT]

This from AI

The idea that Calvinism makes God a narcissist creating vessels of wrath for destruction is a common criticism, stemming from the doctrine of predestination, where God sovereignly chooses some for salvation (vessels of mercy) and leaves others to their sin (vessels of wrath) to display His justice and glory. While Calvinists assert God's glory requires revealing His attributes, including wrath, through the damned (Romans 9), critics argue this portrays God as unjust, tyrannical, or even the author of evil, contrasting it with Jesus's humble, other-directed nature. Defenders counter that God's glory isn't selfish narcissism but His inherent, perfect nature, and that His decree of reprobation is a passive "passing over," not an active creation of evil, serving His greater good.

The Criticism: God as Narcissist/Tyrant

• Rigging the Game: Critics suggest God preordains everything, rigging history so people have no real choice, all to praise Himself, making Him seem like a self-centered "It's all about me" figure.
• Author of Evil: Some argue that by ordaining sin and damnation, God becomes the ultimate cause of evil, a "moral monster" or "tyrant".
• Unjust Damnation: How can God be just punishing those He foreordained for destruction, especially when He knew they'd end up damned but created them anyway

The Core Tension

• God's Character vs. Human Understanding: The debate hinges on whether God's sovereign plan, focused on His glory, aligns with human concepts of justice, love, and fairness, with differing views on whether God causes sin or merely permits it for His higher purposes

Arguments that Calvinism Portrays a Narcissistic God

Critics argue that the God described in Calvinist theology meets the criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) as defined by the DSM-5.

• Lack of Empathy: Critics claim that creating individuals specifically for destruction ("vessels of wrath") demonstrates a lack of empathy, treating humans as mere objects to "show off" divine power.
• Grandiose Self-Importance: The biblical God's insistence on constant praise and the belief that the entire universe exists solely for His glory are seen by skeptics as hallmarks of grandiosity and an "appetite for applause".
• Human-centric Narcissism: Some philosophers argue that any concept of God is inherently narcissistic because it presumes that an all-powerful creator would be "petty" enough to care about minute human behaviors

The question of whether creating "vessels of wrath" is unloving is a central conflict in Christian theology, with different traditions offering radically different interpretations.

1. The Argument for It Being Unloving
Critics argue that if God creates individuals knowing and decreeing their eternal destruction for His own glory, it contradicts the biblical assertion that "God is love" (1 John 4:8).

• Lack of Redemptive Purpose: Some theologians argue that wrath and judgment can only be seen as "loving" if they serve a redemptive or corrective purpose; eternal destruction without hope for restoration appears purely punitive.
• Predestined Despair: Critics of "double predestination" (the idea that God actively chooses who to damn) argue it makes the gospel "bad news" for the majority of humanity, portraying God as a deterministic "puppet master" rather than a loving father.

lets discuss

I cannot accept any theology that contends that GOD made such decrees BEFORE HE created anyone...it is a horrendous idea, worthy of the pit. But the only thing I can think that suggests that such decrees were made before our creation is that it is written such things were decided from the beginning and before the foundation of the world.

BUT if HE made such decrees AFTER creation and after everyone separated themselves into two camps by their free will faith decision either to 1. accept HIM as GOD and our saviour from sin (the basic gospel) or 2. to rebuke HIS claims to be our GOD and our saviour from sin as the lies of a false god,
then
wherein can HE be blamed? We know that HE decreed the election of some to be conformed to the image of Christ before the foundation of the world and that HE consigned others to be vessels of wrath but if this happened as a result of our free will faith decision to accpt HIM or to repudiate HIM, then it is absolutely appropriate for theGOD who is love to do!

This idea is only available to us if we accept that we had a life in the spirit before the creation of the physical universe, before the fall, ie, before the beginning.

As another suggested support for this idea of our pre-earth existence I offer:
Isaiah 40:21 - Have ye not known? Have ye not heard? Hath it not been told you from the beginning? Have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

First of all, from the context (you could read it) we can determine that what they have known, heard about, been told and understood is the truth that YHWH is the almighty sovereign GOD (Isaiah 40:10). That is what they have received.

Second, Isaiah asks his audience (that is ye) these questions in a way that demands an affirmative answer. In other words, Isaiah is saying: Ye have known, ye have heard, ye were told at the beginning (and perhaps since then), ye have understood since the foundations of the Earth, that YHWH is the sovereign GOD. Isaiah is not asking questions. He is giving answers.

Next, we should try to determine the time when they received this witness. Once again, so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether they received it during this life or pre-earth life. I do not think that I am very far off the mark when I say that the words, if taken straight forwardly, seem to say that this knowledge was received by us at the time of the foundation of the Earth, which to my mind is definitely prior to conception for everyone / anyone. Isaiah's answer is an exact match to pre-conception existence theology, simple and straightforward, allowing the suggestion that HIS decrees of wrath for some, the fact that they are condemned already in this life, Jn 3:18, were HIS response to our faith decision and NOT just by chance or for any reason except that some people earned this wrath by their free will rebuke of HIM as a false god and the saviour of no one before the foundation of the world!

 

[atpollard]

lets discuss

Sure,
It is a lie (compiled by AI).

"I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, [it does] not [depend] on the [person] who wants [it] nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Romans 9:15-16 [NASB]

 

[Presby02]

I cannot accept any theology that contends that GOD made such decrees BEFORE HE created anyone...it is a horrendous idea, worthy of the pit. But the only thing I can think that suggests that such decrees were made before our creation is that it is written such things were decided from the beginning and before the foundation of the world.

BUT if HE made such decrees AFTER creation and after everyone separated themselves into two camps by their free will faith decision either to 1. accept HIM as GOD and our saviour from sin (the basic gospel) or 2. to rebuke HIS claims to be our GOD and our saviour from sin as the lies of a false god,
then
wherein can HE be blamed? We know that HE decreed the election of some to be conformed to the image of Christ before the foundation of the world and that HE consigned others to be vessels of wrath but if this happened as a result of our free will faith decision to accpt HIM or to repudiate HIM, then it is absolutely appropriate for theGOD who is love to do!

This idea is only available to us if we accept that we had a life in the spirit before the creation of the physical universe, before the fall, ie, before the beginning.

As another suggested support for this idea of our pre-earth existence I offer:
Isaiah 40:21 - Have ye not known? Have ye not heard? Hath it not been told you from the beginning? Have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

First of all, from the context (you could read it) we can determine that what they have known, heard about, been told and understood is the truth that YHWH is the almighty sovereign GOD (Isaiah 40:10). That is what they have received.

Second, Isaiah asks his audience (that is ye) these questions in a way that demands an affirmative answer. In other words, Isaiah is saying: Ye have known, ye have heard, ye were told at the beginning (and perhaps since then), ye have understood since the foundations of the Earth, that YHWH is the sovereign GOD. Isaiah is not asking questions. He is giving answers.

Next, we should try to determine the time when they received this witness. Once again, so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether they received it during this life or pre-earth life. I do not think that I am very far off the mark when I say that the words, if taken straight forwardly, seem to say that this knowledge was received by us at the time of the foundation of the Earth, which to my mind is definitely prior to conception for everyone / anyone. Isaiah's answer is an exact match to pre-conception existence theology, simple and straightforward, allowing the suggestion that HIS decrees of wrath for some, the fact that they are condemned already in this life, Jn 3:18, were HIS response to our faith decision and NOT just by chance or for any reason except that some people earned this wrath by their free will rebuke of HIM as a false god and the saviour of no one before the foundation of the world!

Then you deny that God is omniscient.

 

[TedT]

Then you deny that God is omniscient.

As I have mentioned before, I think the current favourite definition of the word omniscient needs to be revisited:

My givens:
Sin cannot accrue except by a free will choice to rebel against GOD because:
Light cannot create dark.
Good cannot create evil.
GOD cannot create sinners nor cause them to be created.

Suffering and death is the wages of sin, ie, the result of sin, not a consequence of life. Infants in the womb suffer and die, therefore they must be sinners BY THEIR FREE WILL, not the will of GOD.

GOD does not take pleasure in the deaths of anyone: Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked... yet GOD does only that which gives HIM pleasure so...why would HE create people knowing they would end in hell when He has no desire for them to do so?

Also, HE wants all people to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4...who WANTS all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. so whether HE will get this want fulfilled or not, HE obviously did NOT create anyone without the possibility for salvation, ie, destined to hell at creation! Calvin was wrong!

All HE had to do to ensure that hell was empty according to HIS pleasures and wants was to not create those whom HE foreknew would end there!!! Since HE did not do this according to what HE has told us HE wanted, it implies most strongly that HE did not know what they would chose by their free will.

GOD's omniscience, Calvin's failure:
Calvin followed the pagan Greek widom definition of omniscience brought into the church by the Greek idolizers and Augustine: ie, GOD knows everything that can be known from eternity past to eternity future. Certainly sounds all Godly, eh? To bad it is a blasphemy...

GOD is Love, holy, righteous and Just before all else. All doctrine must conform to HIS nature. All doctrine that impugnes HIS nature is a blasphemy.

This definition of HIS omniscience implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!!! This is not loving; it is not righteous; it is not just - no matter how many books of theo-babble have been written to try to make it so...therefore it is blasphemy.

Some serious work needs to be done on the re-definition of what HE knows and when...so I offer this:
Acts 15:18 KJB Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. To be precise, HE knows all HIS works, usually accepted to be referring to all that HE was created by HIS creative decree, which implies that IF HE did not create something by HIS creative decree, HE does NOT KNOW IT.

Also, these things HE knows from, since, the beginning of the world, not BEFORE creation, not since eternity past. Therefore we have good Biblical reason to reject the pagan wisdom the Calvin idolized.

This biblical definition of what HE knows also implies that IF HE did NOT create the results of our free will decisions but let us create those results by our free will according to what we most wanted, THEN HE did not know these results of our free will decisions UNTIL we created them for ourselves and brought them into reality.

Therefore NO ONE was created evil; not before Adam (Satan etc) nor after Adam (me and thee) but all sinners were created by a free will decision to repudiate YHWH as a liar and therefore a false god or to rebel against HIS commands for them...and after that was finished, then all sinners were sown into the world as per Matt 13:38-39.

 

[Presby02]

You mean change it to suit your theology?

 

[TedT]

You mean change it to suit your theology?

If you don't like my suggestion, but you agree it is wrongly decided as supporting HIS creation of some only to be condemned, then what definition would you choose? What verse would you use to support your new definition?

 

[Presby02]

If you don't like my suggestion, but you agree it is wrongly decided as supporting HIS creation of some only to be condemned, then what definition would you choose? What verse would you use to support your new definition?

I would support exactly what the word means, all knowing. God knows all there is to know logically. Thts not a new definition.

 

[TedT]

I would support exactly what the word means, all knowing. God knows all there is to know logically. Thts not a new definition.

How then do you deal with the idea of a GOD who knows who will be damned if HE creates them but creates them anyway?

IF 1 Cor 13:6 Love takes no pleasure in evil, how can HE create the evil HE will then condemn to an eternity of hell?

IF Ps 136:6 The LORD does all that pleases Him in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and in all their depths. how can HE create evil people which HE takes no pleasure in?

How does this not contradict Ps 145:9 The LORD is good to all; His compassion rests on all He has made. Berean Standard Bible How is creating them to be evil and then punishing them eternally for that evil be called being good to them and resting HIS compassion on them???

What kind of person creates people in his image to be evil, to fulfill his definition of evil, and then condemns them to eternal suffering for being and doing the evil he created them to be and do? How is this not drek?

This is NOT a mystery in understanding why HE does what HE does, it is a mistake in thinking the scriptures say this is what HE does...

 

[Presby02]

How then do you deal with the idea of a GOD who knows who will be damned if HE creates them but creates them anyway?

IF 1 Cor 13:6 Love takes no pleasure in evil, how can HE create the evil HE will then condemn to an eternity of hell?

IF Ps 136:6 The LORD does all that pleases Him in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and in all their depths. how can HE create evil people which HE takes no pleasure in?

How does this not contradict Ps 145:9 The LORD is good to all; His compassion rests on all He has made. Berean Standard Bible How is creating them to be evil and then punishing them eternally for that evil be called being good to them and resting HIS compassion on them???

What kind of person creates people in his image to be evil, to fulfill his definition of evil, and then condemns them to eternal suffering for being and doing the evil he created them to be and do? How is this not drek?

This is NOT a mystery in understanding why HE does what HE does, it is a mistake in thinking the scriptures say this is what HE does...

I don't have to. Everything God creates serves a purpose including the reprobate. PROVERBS 16:4 God is free to do with His creation as He wishes.

 

[TedT]

I don't have to. Everything God creates serves a purpose including the reprobate. PROVERBS 16:4 God is free to do with His creation as He wishes.

GOD is not free to act outside of HIS character and attributes...
the ability to deal properly with sinners does NOT grant HIM the right to go against all morality and create sinners, create the sin they are to do then created an eternal punishment for them based on the sins HE created for them and made them do!!!
Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for His purpose—even the wicked for the day of disaster.

MADE: To do, make, perform, work, but as far as I can see it does not mean created! so it says HE uses the condemned for HIS purpose, the purpose of helping the lost elect return to HIM as Matt 13:27-30 tells us which their disastrous lives do help. The only reason to suggest it means HE created them to suffer in hell is to denigrate HIS goodness and loving holiness!

You might know something about theology but you obviously do not know GOD at all,

 

[Presby02]

GOD is not free to act outside of HIS character and attributes...
the ability to deal properly with sinners does NOT grant HIM the right to go against all morality and create sinners, create the sin they are to do then created an eternal punishment for them based on the sins HE created for them and made them do!!!
Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for His purpose—even the wicked for the day of disaster.

MADE: To do, make, perform, work, but as far as I can see it does not mean created! so it says HE uses the condemned for HIS purpose, the purpose of helping the lost elect return to HIM as Matt 13:27-30 tells us which their disastrous lives do help. The only reason to suggest it means HE created them to suffer in hell is to denigrate HIS goodness and loving holiness!

You might know something about theology but you obviously do not know GOD at all,

Made everything refers to creation. All of creation serves His purpose. Including the reprobate. Another made up definition??

No one said He can act outside of His character. Who said it is immoral to create those He knows will never be saved? Are you making more stuff up as we go?

 

[TomL]

Made everything refers to creation. All of creation serves His purpose. Including the reprobate. Another made up definition??

No one said He can act outside of His character. Who said it is immoral to create those He knows will never be saved? Are you making more stuff up as we go?

Do you not hold the Calvinist view that God determined the immorality of the immoral?

 

[civic]

Do you not hold the Calvinist view that God determined the immorality of the immoral?

Yes all Calvinist do and he is no exception

 

[TomL]

Yes all Calvinist do and he is no exception

Yes, I believe so, but I was asking him to affirm.

 

[Presby02]

Do you not hold the Calvinist view that God determined the immorality of the immoral?

Yup, everything in His creation serves a purpose. See Proverbs 16:4

 

[civic]

Yup, everything in His creation serves a purpose. See Proverbs 16:4

oops you are wrong once again

Should I believe what God said below 3 times or what your church teaches ?


Jeremiah 7:31
They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 32:35
They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

conclusion: Calvinism is wrong, the WCF is wrong and the 1689 confession is wrong.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Presby02]

oops you are wrong once again

Should I believe what God said below 3 times or what your church teaches ?


Jeremiah 7:31
They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 32:35
They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

conclusion: Calvinism is wrong, the WCF is wrong and the 1689 confession is wrong.

hope this helps !!!

And your simply a Open Theist right?

Your sorry excuse for a proof text simply means it would or did not enter God's mind to command such a thing. Not that He did not know. Your slide towards heresy continues.

 

[Presby02]

Do you not hold the Calvinist view that God determined the immorality of the immoral?

Yup. Either that or He had no idea it would exist. Like some sort of creative oppsie. What say you?

 

[civic]

And your simply a Open Theist right?

Your sorry excuse for a proof text simply means it would or did not enter God's mind to command such a thing. Not that He did not know. Your slide towards heresy continues.

try addressing those scriptures instead of just repeating your doctrinal beliefs.

try exegeting them instead of eisegeting them.