Is determinism evil ?

[civic]

Eternal / Exhaustive Divine Decree

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to present problems for Calvinism 's (EDD ).

How do the Calvinists answer?

1. God determined that Sodom would become so wicked.

2. God determined that their wickedness would include sexual perversion.

3. God determined that Lot would offer his daughters to be abused..

4. Even though God brought Lot's wife out of the city, God determined that she would be lost, in spite of having warned her not to look back.

5. Why would God warn her if she was determined before the foundation of the world to be lost?

6. God determined that Lot's daughters would commit incest with their father.

7. And is further compounded by what Jesus Himself said :That there was actually a way that the Sodomites could’ve been saved (Matthew 11:23).

how do people believe these things about our Holy God ?

Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil

Matthew 6:9-13
“Pray, then, in this way:

‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day [e]our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
And that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

hope this helps !!!

 

[James]

I do not believe that God is the cause of evil the devil is the cause of evil. Why would Jesus ask us to pray to be derived from evil if God caused it in the first place. That would be praying out of His will and not according to His will.

 

[civic]

I do not believe that God is the cause of evil the devil is the cause of evil. Why would Jesus ask us to pray to be derived from evil if God caused it in the first place. That would be praying out of His will and not according to His will.

I love that answer brother well said !

 

[James]

I love that answer brother well said !

 

[TedT]

6. God determined....

7. And is further compounded by what Jesus Himself said :That there was actually a way that the Sodomites could’ve been saved (Matthew 11:23).

how do people believe these things about our Holy God ?

Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil

ImCo
GOD does determine such things but not the way most people, especially Calvinists, think about it.

First: what HE does NOT determine:
HE doesn't determine that any person's heart will become evil - every sinful person determines their own evil state for themselves by themselves against all the good warnings from GOD about the inevitable consequences if we should make such a choice.

Thus our FATE as redeemable or reprobate was self determined, not determined by GOD.

Every sinner became a sinner ONLY by his free will decision to sin. And there is no such thing as a free will decision determined by some other person's choice. This includes the free will choice to accept the unforgivable sin of repudiating HIM as GOD and Saviour for being a liar and therefore a false god which creates the reprobate sinner. And it includes the sins of HIS sheep, the sinful people of HIS kingdom, HE determines the sins of those who by their free will put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour but rejected HIS commands to become holy. Since they had once chosen to be righteous, HE could always bring them back to that decision and fulfill it in them by the process of redemption and sanctification.

Second: What HE does determine:
The first reason to determine the sins of the sinful people of HIS kingdom is to open the eyes of HIS sheep gone astray into sin by proving to them by their life experience that a little leaven will indeed leaven the whole lump, that they cannot serve GOD and the world at the same time and that to be HIS heavenly bride, we must become perfectly in tune with HIS holiness by our free will.

The second reason is to speed the coming of the judgement by opening the eyes of the sinful people of HIS kingdom to the full and perfectly leavened evil of the reprobate who cannot be saved.
Genesis 15:16 But in the fourth generation they (the Israelites, symbol for every sinner able to be redeemed) shall come hither (to the Promised Land, the heavenly marriage) again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. It should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about the totally defiling nature of just one sin, that the Amorites were full enough in GOD's sight already. So then, just who still looked on their iniquity as not being full yet, that is, as not being bad enough to warrant this judgement that had to take place before Israel's return?

According to pre-conception existence (PCE) theology, there was a postponement of GOD's judgement because the Amorites were not yet bad enough in the eyes of the Israelites who shared their sinfulness for the Israelites to be willing to judge them according to the judgement decreed by GOD. Therefore, the Israelites became corrupt and had to stay enslaved in the world until they became willing to judge them, that is, until the Israelites became holy (obedient) enough to see the reprobates all judged: men, women and children. (See Joshua 6:21; 8:26,27; 10:40)

Opening the eyes of HIS sinful sheep to the inevitable suffering and destruction their sin causes by forcing the postponement of the judgement of GOD speeds up their coming to repentance and therefore the judgement day: 2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness 12 as you anticipate and hasten, (speed up) the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat.
Turning to holiness speeds up the judgement. That is why the sheep gone astray must live with the repreprbate and suffering under their sinfulness as per: Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to verses 36-30]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. implied: when the good seed will finally become holy and thus safe from the effects of the judgment...

GOD predetermines every aspect of our sinful lives including our every sin while our will is enslaved to the addictive power of evil to this one end: to open our eyes to the nature of sin and the absolute necessity of the whole of creation becoming holy, especially by accepting and speeding up that great but terrible day of our LORD!

We chose our fates but when we chose to be sinners, HE chose, predetermined, the sins we would do and the sins of the reprobate world that will affect us to the one end of our eventual redemption and sanctification. We are Adam and Eve learning that we are evil and must come to the Saviour to be redeemed and become willing to destroy the Serpent who tempted us from our faithfulness into our current rebellion.

 

[civic]

ImCo
GOD does determine such things but not the way most people, especially Calvinists, think about it.

First: what HE does NOT determine:
HE doesn't determine that any person's heart will become evil - every sinful person determines their own evil state for themselves by themselves against all the good warnings from GOD about the inevitable consequences if we should make such a choice.

Thus our FATE as redeemable or reprobate was self determined, not determined by GOD.

Every sinner became a sinner ONLY by his free will decision to sin. And there is no such thing as a free will decision determined by some other person's choice. This includes the free will choice to accept the unforgivable sin of repudiating HIM as GOD and Saviour for being a liar and therefore a false god which creates the reprobate sinner. And it includes the sins of HIS sheep, the sinful people of HIS kingdom, HE determines the sins of those who by their free will put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour but rejected HIS commands to become holy. Since they had once chosen to be righteous, HE could always bring them back to that decision and fulfill it in them by the process of redemption and sanctification.

Second: What HE does determine:
The first reason to determine the sins of the sinful people of HIS kingdom is to open the eyes of HIS sheep gone astray into sin by proving to them by their life experience that a little leaven will indeed leaven the whole lump, that they cannot serve GOD and the world at the same time and that to be HIS heavenly bride, we must become perfectly in tune with HIS holiness by our free will.

The second reason is to speed the coming of the judgement by opening the eyes of the sinful people of HIS kingdom to the full and perfectly leavened evil of the reprobate who cannot be saved.
Genesis 15:16 But in the fourth generation they (the Israelites, symbol for every sinner able to be redeemed) shall come hither (to the Promised Land, the heavenly marriage) again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. It should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about the totally defiling nature of just one sin, that the Amorites were full enough in GOD's sight already. So then, just who still looked on their iniquity as not being full yet, that is, as not being bad enough to warrant this judgement that had to take place before Israel's return?

According to pre-conception existence (PCE) theology, there was a postponement of GOD's judgement because the Amorites were not yet bad enough in the eyes of the Israelites who shared their sinfulness for the Israelites to be willing to judge them according to the judgement decreed by GOD. Therefore, the Israelites became corrupt and had to stay enslaved in the world until they became willing to judge them, that is, until the Israelites became holy (obedient) enough to see the reprobates all judged: men, women and children. (See Joshua 6:21; 8:26,27; 10:40)

Opening the eyes of HIS sinful sheep to the inevitable suffering and destruction their sin causes by forcing the postponement of the judgement of GOD speeds up their coming to repentance and therefore the judgement day: 2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness 12 as you anticipate and hasten, (speed up) the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat.
Turning to holiness speeds up the judgement. That is why the sheep gone astray must live with the repreprbate and suffering under their sinfulness as per: Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to verses 36-30]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. implied: when the good seed will finally become holy and thus safe from the effects of the judgment...

GOD predetermines every aspect of our sinful lives including our every sin while our will is enslaved to the addictive power of evil to this one end: to open our eyes to the nature of sin and the absolute necessity of the whole of creation becoming holy, especially by accepting and speeding up that great but terrible day of our LORD!

We chose our fates but when we chose to be sinners, HE chose, predetermined, the sins we would do and the sins of the reprobate world that will affect us to the one end of our eventual redemption and sanctification. We are Adam and Eve learning that we are evil and must come to the Saviour to be redeemed and become willing to destroy the Serpent who tempted us from our faithfulness into our current rebellion.

Thanks Ted for your insight into this subject , much appreciated my friend !

 

[TedT]

I do not believe that God is the cause of evil the devil is the cause of evil. Why would Jesus ask us to pray to be derived from evil if God caused it in the first place. That would be praying out of His will and not according to His will.

I agree...but then I apply this truth to our creation as sinners in Adam.

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. Surely this means that HE cannot do or create evil in any way by any method any more than a match can be struck and darkness come out and fill a room! If you think this verse means something else I'd love to hear what that is...

Do we believe Mark 3:23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand." ? Is not the holy side of this syllogism IF GOD drives our Satan's evil, how can HE create the evil HE hates? IF GOD hates wickedness: and has no wickedness in HIM, Psalm 92:15 proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him. and Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who delights in wickedness; no evil can dwell with You., how can we say that HE created wicked people by having them born as men in Adam without being a house divided? Both things cannot be true at the same time because they are opposites. IF HE cannot dwell with the wicked, how can HE have created them / us, especially HIS Bride, as evil in Adam?

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Christ is good so cannot create evil people by making them human in Adam's sin, especially those HE chose before the foundation of the world to be HIS Bride!!! What foolishness is this??

James 3:11 Can both fresh water and bitter water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.
Though this is about words, how much more is it about the creation of people who are more important than words?

Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; ie, the unclean cannot produce that which is clean or profitable before GOD or to GOD…then how can we believe that that which is perfectly clean can produce filth and corruption?

Once we decide that the doctrine of inherited sin is blasphemy against HIS loving justice, only then will we ever be open to the truth of how we became sinners ie where our depravity came from.

 

[civic]

These also refute God ordaining all things and determining evil to occur.

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin

 

[civic]

WCF CHAPTER 3 Of God’s Eternal Decree: CH3.1-CH3.3

1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.


The above is nothing but Calvinist double talk trying to get their god off the hook with determinism and predestination. The Author and Originator in every systematic is the responsible party with the exception of Calvinism. If I’m predestined as a child of wrath/destruction from Eternity then I do not have a choice or a chance to be saved as I was condemned before I was born. It’s the very definition of unloving, uncharitable and hateful. Calvinism is an attack on the loving and holy nature and character of our God.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The above is nothing but Calvinist double talk trying to get their god off the hook with determinism and predestination. The Author and Originator in every systematic is the responsible party with the exception of Calvinism. If I’m predestined as a child of wrath/destruction from Eternity then I do not have a choice or a chance to be saved as I was condemned before I was born. It’s the very definition of unloving, uncharitable and hateful. Calvinism is an attack on the loving and holy nature and character of our God.

Get God off the hook? I see nothing wrong with God having power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. 22 [What is it to you?] if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[civic]

Get God off the hook? I see nothing wrong with God having power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. 22 [What is it to you?] if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Thats nations not individuals in Romans 9.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Thats nations not individuals in Romans 9.

I don't agree, but for the sake of argument -- it seems more acceptable to you that God create nations specifically for wrath and destruction, as opposed to individuals?

 

[civic]

I don't agree, but for the sake of argument -- it seems more acceptable to you that God create nations specifically for wrath and destruction, as opposed to individuals?

“so if you run into a difficult passage and you know the Bible never contradicts itself then turn the pages to a parallel passage and just let the scriptures interpret itself”

I’ve mentioned a few parallels already, so here I will dig into verses 19-23:

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

When I first turned from Calvinism and began to email back and forth with one of my more studied Calvinist friends, I offered my alternative interpretation of these verses, to which he responded, “we need to walk through this. I cannot understand this text in any other way than to understand that God has indeed predestined before the foundations of the world that there would be vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, for His own glory.”


First, I had to point out to him the leaps my friend had made:


(1) There is no mention of “before the foundations of the world” anywhere in the passage; and


(2) He had moved from “God… endured with much patience” to “God … predestined … vessels of wrath … for destruction, for His own glory.”


Next, I questioned how he understood a few other New Testament texts which seemed to me to carry the same idea: Ephesians 2, Romans 2:4-5, 2 Peter 3:9 and 2 Tim 2:20-21.


In Ephesians 2:3-5 we see that we “were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy […] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” – in other words, we were vessels of wrath but became vessels of mercy.


In Romans 2:4-5, we see that God’s patience is meant to turn vessels of wrath into vessels of mercy; those who refuse to repent are preparing themselves for destruction:

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

Likewise in 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”


And 2 Tim 2:20-21, perhaps the clearest of all, says:

Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

As Calvinist Bill MacDonald wrote, against the common Calvinist view, “God does not prepare vessels of wrath for destruction, but he does prepare vessels of mercy for glory“.[9]


FF Bruce takes much the same approach:

While Paul will allow no questioning of God’s right to do what He will with His own, he lets his emphasis fall, not on God’s wrath towards the reprobate, but rather the postponement of His wrath against men who have long since become ripe for destruction. As has been pointed out earlier (2:4), the mercy and forbearance of God are intended to afford men time for repentance; if, instead, they harden their hearts yet more, as Pharaoh did after repeated respites, they are simply storing up an increasing weight of retribution for themselves against the day of requital. [10]

Jeremiah 18, where Paul’s illustration seems to have originated, also confirms this. There, the Prophet Jeremiah watches a potter as “the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make” (v 4). The Lord tells the Prophet:

“Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’ But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’ (v 6-12)

If a vessel of wrath, prepared for destruction, “turns from its evil” it becomes a vessel of mercy. And like in 2 Peter 3, God longs for it to be so: “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.” (v 11, and cf Romans 11:20 & 23)soteriology 101

hope this helps !!!

 

[Diserner]

Get God off the hook? I see nothing wrong with God having power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor.

I would agree "there is nothing wrong" with that in a moral sense, but it would also not be maximally loving, which is the character God has revealed to us. When we speak of absolving God of moral responsibility, we must be extra careful and clear to explain exactly what we mean, for both sides are going to have to admit God "allowed" a thing. So there will have to be some describable and real difference between the word "allow" and the word "enforce," and this necessitates primary and secondary desires and true libertarian free will. There is a sense in which, even God allowing LFW, makes him complicit in whatever the LFW creatures decide to do, like handing a murderer a gun and putting them in proximity to victims. However there is an equal sense in which this differentiates the role of responsibility and authority of each will.

So the question gets very involved logically and philosophically, and most broad generic statements from both sides are just sweeping logical inconsistencies under the carpet with too ambiguous language.

 

[civic]

I would agree "there is nothing wrong" with that in a moral sense, but it would also not be maximally loving, which is the character God has revealed to us. When we speak of absolving God of moral responsibility, we must be extra careful and clear to explain exactly what we mean, for both sides are going to have to admit God "allowed" a thing. So there will have to be some describable and real difference between the word "allow" and the word "enforce," and this necessitates primary and secondary desires and true libertarian free will. There is a sense in which, even God allowing LFW, makes him complicit in whatever the LFW creatures decide to do, like handing a murderer a gun and putting them in proximity to victims. However there is an equal sense in which this differentiates the role of responsibility and authority of each will.

So the question gets very involved logically and philosophically, and most broad generic statements from both sides are just sweeping logical inconsistencies under the carpet with too ambiguous language.

The bottom line is Calvinism makes God culpable, responsible and the cause of everything that comes to pass which includes all evil. At least some admit this and say it was for Gods glory that a man’s wife and child were raised and murdered according to His will and purpose. It’s sickening. Most are afraid to face their reformed theology with what it actually teaches. I can quote dozens of times Calvin taught this in his writings and several other Calvinists.

 

[Diserner]

The bottom line is Calvinism makes Hod culpable, responsible and the cause of everything that comes to pass which includes all evil.

You are speaking too broadly and generically, the very thing I was talking about.

If God allows a thing—any thing at all—there must be some sense in which he wants that thing if he has the power to stop it. There is also some sense in which he is responsible for that thing if he does not stop it.

It is important to emphasis "some" sense and not every sense, but this does make the problem not simplistic as too many want to paint it.

What we say then is that evil is God's secondary desire and not his primary desire, and we find a harmonization there.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

hope this helps !!!

It doesn't. It's a great wall of text, but you didn't answer my question. If that scripture is referring to nations, not individuals, then are you saying it is more acceptable to you that God create nations specifically for wrath and destruction, as opposed to individuals? The scripture doesn't say God makes some pottery for dishonor but leaves it open for them to repent. It says they are prepared for destruction and is compared to those he prepared beforehand for glory.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

I still think that clearly refers to individuals, but my question remains:

So, yes or no? It seems more acceptable that God creates nations for the purpose of wrath and destruction? That seems to me to be eisegesis for the purpose of letting God off your hook.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You are speaking too broadly and generically, the very thing I was talking about.

If God allows a thing—any thing at all—there must be some sense in which he wants that thing if he has the power to stop it. There is also some sense in which he is responsible for that thing if he does not stop it.

It is important to emphasis "some" sense and not every sense, but this does make the problem not simplistic as too many want to paint it.

What we say then is that evil is God's secondary desire and not his primary desire, and we find a harmonization there.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

I chose that particular translation for the benefit of KJVOs.

 

[TedT]

ImCo
GOD does determine such things but not the way most people, especially Calvinists, think about it.

First: what HE does NOT determine:
HE doesn't determine that any person's heart will become evil - every sinful person determines their own evil state for themselves by themselves against all the good warnings from GOD about the inevitable consequences if we should make such a choice.

Thus our FATE as redeemable or reprobate was self determined, not determined by GOD.

Every sinner became a sinner ONLY by his free will decision to sin. And there is no such thing as a free will decision determined by some other person's choice. This includes the free will choice to accept the unforgivable sin of repudiating HIM as GOD and Saviour for being a liar and therefore a false god which creates the reprobate sinner. And it includes the sins of HIS sheep, the sinful people of HIS kingdom, HE determines the sins of those who by their free will put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour but rejected HIS commands to become holy. Since they had once chosen to be righteous, HE could always bring them back to that decision and fulfill it in them by the process of redemption and sanctification.

Second: What HE does determine:
The first reason to determine the sins of the sinful people of HIS kingdom is to open the eyes of HIS sheep gone astray into sin by proving to them by their life experience that a little leaven will indeed leaven the whole lump, that they cannot serve GOD and the world at the same time and that to be HIS heavenly bride, we must become perfectly in tune with HIS holiness by our free will.

The second reason is to speed the coming of the judgement by opening the eyes of the sinful people of HIS kingdom to the full and perfectly leavened evil of the reprobate who cannot be saved.
Genesis 15:16 But in the fourth generation they (the Israelites, symbol for every sinner able to be redeemed) shall come hither (to the Promised Land, the heavenly marriage) again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. It should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about the totally defiling nature of just one sin, that the Amorites were full enough in GOD's sight already. So then, just who still looked on their iniquity as not being full yet, that is, as not being bad enough to warrant this judgement that had to take place before Israel's return?

According to pre-conception existence (PCE) theology, there was a postponement of GOD's judgement because the Amorites were not yet bad enough in the eyes of the Israelites who shared their sinfulness for the Israelites to be willing to judge them according to the judgement decreed by GOD. Therefore, the Israelites became corrupt and had to stay enslaved in the world until they became willing to judge them, that is, until the Israelites became holy (obedient) enough to see the reprobates all judged: men, women and children. (See Joshua 6:21; 8:26,27; 10:40)

Opening the eyes of HIS sinful sheep to the inevitable suffering and destruction their sin causes by forcing the postponement of the judgement of GOD speeds up their coming to repentance and therefore the judgement day: 2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness 12 as you anticipate and hasten, (speed up) the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat.
Turning to holiness speeds up the judgement. That is why the sheep gone astray must live with the repreprbate and suffering under their sinfulness as per: Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to verses 36-30]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. implied: when the good seed will finally become holy and thus safe from the effects of the judgment...

GOD predetermines every aspect of our sinful lives including our every sin while our will is enslaved to the addictive power of evil to this one end: to open our eyes to the nature of sin and the absolute necessity of the whole of creation becoming holy, especially by accepting and speeding up that great but terrible day of our LORD!

We chose our fates but when we chose to be sinners, HE chose, predetermined, the sins we would do and the sins of the reprobate world that will affect us to the one end of our eventual redemption and sanctification. We are Adam and Eve learning that we are evil and must come to the Saviour to be redeemed and become willing to destroy the Serpent who tempted us from our faithfulness into our current rebellion.

 

[TedT]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Since evil is an eisegetical interpretation we also can accept it means calamity as the scholars suggest which does not impinge upon HIS holiness, godliness nor loving nature in the least.