Irresistible Grace

[TomL]

Yet His sheep DO go into sin ie they leave His fold as His sheep to live in sin and as His sheep they follow idols, not Him, until grace is given them. The prodigal son is a family member first who chooses to leave the family and go live in Sin City.

To go astray into sin cannot imply some fault on the part of the Shepherd so it must imply some rebellion, some sin, against their divine Shepherd.

The demonic reprobate have never joined His family, fold, kingdom, by faith so they are condemned already.

In his doctrine, they have never yet believed on Christ.

 

[TomL]

Yes its saving Grace through Jesus Christ, its irresistibly reign from Christ, to say otherwise is an attack on Christ Mediatorial Reign from His Throne Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by[dia] Jesus Christ our Lord.

Again it is not irresistible

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NASB95) — 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

 

[TomL]

Yes; I remember now. I don’t hold with the unconditional thing because it clearly says in the book of Romans:

Romans 8:28 (NKJV) And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to [His] purpose.

Good!

 

[TedT]

3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

...but unlike the rest we were not condemned already as they are but are elect, chosen to be conformed to the image of the Son as believers already though sinful, Jn 3:18.

 

[civic]

...but unlike the rest we were not condemned already as they are but are elect, chosen to be conformed to the image of the Son as believers already though sinful, Jn 3:18.

They are condemned only because of their unbelief not predestination

 

[TedT]

Nope Ephesians 2 declares they were children of wrath just like the rest.

Rather: they were children DESERVING wrath for their sins but as believers they were never condemned to suffer wrath as the reprobate were, already, Jn 3:18.

IOW: the sinful elect can claim no superiority over the demonic reprobate except in being the objects of HIS grace...

 

[brightfame52]

Rather, they are enslaved by their sins so they can't repent and believe and, after repudiating HIM as a false god and not their saviour from sin, they are condemned as unforgivable...

Those believers who sin are forgivable though enslaved hence not condemned.

ImCo,
Faith or the lack of faith comes before election and condemnation.

No they are condemned in their sins by the law, their unbelief is permanent. See Christ is to believe on only by them He redeemed by His Death, from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13 but all others whom He didn't die and redeem, owe a debt to the law of God they unfortunately cannot pay, and there is no reason for them to be given faith to believe in Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Again it is not irresistible

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NASB95) — 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Unfortunately I see this as a attack on the sovereign reign of Grace through Christ Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life[Salvation] by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[TedT]

Yep

He believes they were unconditionally made sheep from before the foundation of the world

And I agree except that I must reject the concept of unconditional for the concept that ALL the sons of GOD were alive, Job 38:7, and choosing what we wanted before the foundation of the world and when they heard the gospel, Col 1:23, they put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour from sin by their free will and received in response HIS promise of election of conformity to HIS Son, thus becoming His sheep, the people of His kingdom.

Those sheep who later chose to be sinful in HIS sight becoming His sheep gone astray, were sown into this world as the sinful people of HIS kingdom, Matt 13:36-38, for their redemption and sanctification...

 

[TedT]

God reaches out to all in grace but man resists God and chooses not to believe

This seems to me to imply that we save or condemn ourselves by accepting or resisting HIS grace by our own choice...

 

[TedT]

They are condemned only because of their unbelief not predestination

EXACTLY!!!
Faith and UNfaith cause, are the underlying condition for, our election or our reprobation!!! Predestination is HIS promise that we will all receive the FATE we have chosen for ourselves by our free will faith response to hearing HIS claims in the proclamation of HIS gospel.

 

[Selah]

IOW: the sinful elect can claim no superiority over the demonic reprobate except in being the objects of HIS grace...

Sinful elect?! No such thing!

 

[brightfame52]

Sinful elect?! No such thing!

You dont believe the elect were sinful, sinners, ungodly as everyone else ? Look what is writtent to the elect Rom 5:6-8

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Selah]

You dont believe the elect were sinful, sinners, ungodly as everyone else ? Look what is writtent to the elect Rom 5:6-8

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

…Until they hear the Gospel of Christ.

 

[Selah]

double post

 

[TomL]

And I agree except that I must reject the concept of unconditional for the concept that ALL the sons of GOD were alive, Job 38:7, and choosing what we wanted before the foundation of the world and when they heard the gospel, Col 1:23, they put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour from sin by their free will and received in response HIS promise of election of conformity to HIS Son, thus becoming His sheep, the people of His kingdom.

Those sheep who later chose to be sinful in HIS sight becoming His sheep gone astray, were sown into this world as the sinful people of HIS kingdom, Matt 13:36-38, for their redemption and sanctification...

You hold to a personal pre-existence of man?

 

[TomL]

Unfortunately I see this as a attack on the sovereign reign of Grace through Christ Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life[Salvation] by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Unfortunately, you do not heed scripture

Grace is not irresistible

Hebrews 12:15 (LEB) — 15 Take care that no one falls short of the grace of God; that no one growing up like a root of bitterness causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;

Acts 7:51 (LEB) — 51 “You stiff-necked people and uncircumcised in hearts and in your ears! You constantly resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so also do you!

2 Corinthians 6:1 (LEB) — 1 Now because we are fellow workers, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

Hebrews 10:29 (LEB) — 29 How much worse punishment do you think the person will be considered worthy of who treats with disdain the Son of God and who considers ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was made holy and who insults the Spirit of grace?

 

[brightfame52]

…Until they hear the Gospel of Christ.

So do you believe the elect were sinful, yes or no please ? Did they need to be saved from their sins ?

 

[brightfame52]

Unfortunately, you do not heed scripture

Grace is not irresistible

Hebrews 12:15 (LEB) — 15 Take care that no one falls short of the grace of God; that no one growing up like a root of bitterness causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;

Acts 7:51 (LEB) — 51 “You stiff-necked people and uncircumcised in hearts and in your ears! You constantly resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so also do you!

2 Corinthians 6:1 (LEB) — 1 Now because we are fellow workers, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

Hebrews 10:29 (LEB) — 29 How much worse punishment do you think the person will be considered worthy of who treats with disdain the Son of God and who considers ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was made holy and who insults the Spirit of grace?

I still see this as a attack on the sovereign reign of Grace through Christ Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life[Salvation] by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[synergy]

I still see this as a attack on the sovereign reign of Grace through Christ Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life[Salvation] by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Calvinism is indeed an attack on the Sovereignty of God in the following ways:

1. Limits God’s Sovereignty to Determinism

Calvinism equates sovereignty with meticulous determinism—that God must control every detail for Him to be sovereign. This is a limited view of sovereignty, suggesting that God could remain sovereign while allowing true human freedom. Calvinism puts God in a philosophical box, denying the possibility of a more relational or dynamic sovereignty.

2. Undermines God's Goodness

Calvinism, by asserting that God unconditionally elects some to salvation and others to damnation (double predestination), attributes evil or arbitrary behavior to God, which conflicts with His revealed character of love and justice. This redefines sovereignty in a way that compromises God's moral nature, making God appear tyrannical or unjust.

3. Denies God’s Desire for All to Be Saved

1 Timothy 2:4 ("[God] desires all people to be saved"). Calvinism, by affirming limited atonement and unconditional election, denies this universal salvific will. Calvinism limits God's sovereign grace, making it seem like God is not free to love or save all.

4. Diminishes the Role of Human Response

Calvinism removes meaningful human response from salvation (due to total depravity and irresistible grace), which makes God's relationship with humans robotic and coercive. This denies God's relational sovereignty, where He genuinely invites and responds to human will.