The body is yet to have its redemption.We already have the spirit of adoption and cry "Abba Father".
What is the means of that freedom?
The redemption is termed the adoption as sons
God is the means of our freedom; in the verse, it is the spirit.
The body is yet to have its redemption.We already have the spirit of adoption and cry "Abba Father".
What is the means of that freedom?
God in what Person? The Spirit speaks of the Son and Glorifies the Son.The body is yet to have its redemption.
The redemption is termed the adoption as sons
God is the means of our freedom; in the verse, it is the spirit.
Romans 8:15–25 (NASB95) — 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.God in what Person? The Spirit speaks of the Son and Glorifies the Son.
Ultimately, you're avoiding the facts of redemption relative to all of creation. It is the work of Jesus Christ in the sons of God that brings liberty of life to creation. You can't avoid this.
Romans 8:15–25 (NASB95) — 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
In it we have the firstfruits of the Spirit and are awaiting yet for something.
Waiting for our adoption as sons, that is the redemption of our bodies.
It is a hope we have not yet seen but wait eagerly for
When it happens
The creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption.
This is what we find in the passage.I'm going to try one more time.....
I know how to read Tom. I know how to study. I know how to learn. I've been doing it for some time now. Not that I don't appreciate your comments. I do. However, you're avoiding the obvious here.
What self guilt enslaved all of creation?
We must deal with the guilt of humanity in not being what they should be. Our actions and the actions of Adam dragged the whole of creation into an seemingly endless, repeating spiral into the very image of death.
When Christ was born of a virgin. Christ shared in that struggle with us from the very moment of "conception". Christ became obedient to death. This is the priestly work of Christ for US.
That work is part of the Glorious advent of God Incarnate to redeem all of creation from vanity and death.
Very few theories of the "Atonement" actually deal with this aspect of human existence. It is one of the reason why @Dizerner is struggling with alternatives to PSA.
If it isn't PSA... what is it? I know my answer and it very seldom completely aligns with most any "theory" I've learned over the years.
Sin is not just what we do wrong but also what we don't do right.....
We are a very weak creature with such limited time and opportunities to be what we MUST be for our fellowman. Christ gave His all in this. Gave His all confined as man among us. Confined in our human experience. He learned what it was to struggle to win the hearts of mankind as a man. He learned what it was to struggle with emotional stress and anxiety of shame and rejection as a man. No one was better. No one will ever be as good or as proficient but we can't ignore the guilt of humanity in doing our best while often selfishly ignoring those around us. Time.... oh so little time and so little means to use it wisely.
Guilt isn't what most make of it or try to avoid. It is dark and lasting. Deep inadequacies and overwhelming sadness in our condition.
Jesus didn't need to suffer the "wrath of God" to save us but He certain experienced our own guilt. Imagine what it was for God Incarnate to hear the words "He has saved others, let him save himself".....
What is it that spirit within YOU wants to do for others you love? Might be to "save them" from the circumstances they can't control themselves? How is that effort going for you? What lasting guilt do you for this?
If it wasn't for the love of God.......
Yeah.... I know. "God's got a plan"............
Such things are why I often say "we are our brother's keeper".......
This is what we find in the passage.
In it we have the firstfruits of the Spirit and are awaiting yet for something.
Waiting for our adoption as sons, that is the redemption of our bodies.
It is a hope we have not yet seen but wait eagerly for
When it happens
The creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption.
PSA, however, is not the subject of the passage.
I guess I was not understanding your point.PSA didn't even exist when Paul wrote these words. I never even implied it did.
What they do tell us is that creation itself is the way it is because of US. Creation itself shares in our condition. Maybe I haven't been clear enough in what I said. I believe I have. Tell me that you didn't understand what I was saying in this and I'll believe you.
However, it seems as if you're avoiding the clear connotations of the suffering of creation along with us.
Sorry for the confusion.I guess I was not understanding your point.
I did not deny a suffering of creation; however, when I posted.
The creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption.
Shouldn't that then be a cause for rejection?Sorry for the confusion.
Yes. In the manifestation of the fullness of the sons of God. The fullness of resurrection. Yet, you and I will most likely leave our seeds in the ground till later when this happens for all of humanity.
The point I'm making is that creation suffers because of us. With us. Not because of their own actions. Thusly, sin is more than the bad things we do. The offering of Jesus Christ is the means of this benefit upon the whole of creation.
Thusly, the explanation for the work of Christ must include these circumstances.
PSA does deal with the ongoing guilt of humanity. At least at a level that imparts regret for sin.
What other theories adequately do this?
PSA overstates the need for wrath in the suffering of Jesus Christ and also misses the meaning of the Incarnation almost entirely. Yet, it isn't entirely wrong about guilt. In some ways, it better than how Universalists view the Atonement.
I’m half way through the book Lamb of the free, I’m learning some things I never knew about the levitical sacrificial system with purification. It’s worth a read. Kindle was only $9Sorry for the confusion.
Yes. In the manifestation of the fullness of the sons of God. The fullness of resurrection. Yet, you and I will most likely leave our seeds in the ground till later when this happens for all of humanity.
The point I'm making is that creation suffers because of us. With us. Not because of their own actions. Thusly, sin is more than the bad things we do. The offering of Jesus Christ is the means of this benefit upon the whole of creation.
Thusly, the explanation for the work of Christ must include these circumstances.
PSA does deal with the ongoing guilt of humanity. At least at a level that imparts regret for sin.
What other theories adequately do this?
PSA overstates the need for wrath in the suffering of Jesus Christ and also misses the meaning of the Incarnation almost entirely. Yet, it isn't entirely wrong about guilt. In some ways, it better than how Universalists view the Atonement.
Shouldn't that then be a cause for rejection?
Information is good. Few people actually give what they believe much thought nor even try to systematically construct a full defense of such beliefs. In this, the author is relating his thoughts effectively. That is good.continued:
The Lord’s Supper and Communal Well-Being Sacrifices
I have already stated throughout this study that the primary sacrificial associations in the NT to Jesus’s death are the non-atoning well-being sacrifices of Passover and the covenant-making ceremony. This much is easily recognizable given that Jesus’s words at the Last Supper explaining his imminent death happen while eating a Passover meal (Matt 26:17–19; Mark 14:12, 14, 16; Luke 22:7–8, 11, 13, 15) and he says he is inaugurating the promised (re)new(ed) covenant (Matt 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25).475 But sometimes what is indeed obvious and right there in front of us goes either unnoticed or underappreciated. Hence, Michael Gorman’s expression of shock: However, the fact that there is no theory or model of the atonement called “covenant,” “covenant-renewal,” “new-covenant,” or something very similar is, or should be, rather surprising.
These terms refer, after all, to a biblical image connected to Jesus’ death—originating, it appears, with Jesus himself at his Last Supper—and the source of the term “the New Testament.”476 In the introduction I have already addressed how uses of “atonement” as Gorman uses here are potentially problematic. But Gorman is right to call our attention to “the obvious,” especially when, as here, scholarship oddly revolves around “the absence of the obvious.”477 I am carrying this notion forward and highlighting what is also rather “obvious” regarding the various sacrificial imagery applied to Jesus, yet has similarly been overlooked. The Lord’s Supper is essentially a “sacrificialized” (to borrow Klawans’s terminology) ritual laid on top of a ritual that just is a non-atoning sacrifice (the Passover). Jesus isolates two elements from this sacrificial meal (wine and unleavened bread) and links them to his imminent murder as a way of memorializing the salvation his death (and resurrection) will obtain. In short, the Lord’s Supper is a ritualization of an existing ritual. Just like handwashing was a way for some Jewish contemporaries to “templize”/“sacrificialize” ordinary meals, ritually transforming common meals into quasi-sacred meals and their table into an altar of sorts, so too with the Lord’s Supper. It is not literally a sacrificial meal thereafter (the Corinthians sure aren’t traveling to Jerusalem each week to eat a well-being sacrifice together), but it is intelligible as a meal partaken of “as if” it was a well-being sacrifice.
In fact, the ritual purity regulations for partaking in such meals are also appropriated by Paul. But rather than instituting, say, ritual handwashing, Paul analogizes this in terms of moral purity. Thus, in 1 Cor 5 he talks about keeping the feast of Passover with Jesus as the Paschal lamb in moral purity terms (5:6–13). And this also explains his comments about eating the Lord’s Supper “in a worthily manner” later on (11:26–34). It is because he knows the Lord’s Supper is a sacrificialization of the eaten well-being sacrifices that he plays on the warnings in Leviticus about eating these in the wrong manner and being “cut off” as a result (Lev 7:18–21; 19:5–8; 22:3–7, 29–30). But Paul’s appeal is not to intimate ritual purity before eating, but rather to ensure that everyone is looking out for the interests and nutritional needs of their neighbor (1 Cor 11:21–22, 33–34). We cannot get into these instructions more here, but it suffices for our purposes to realize that Paul’s instructions and warnings here in 1 Cor 5 and 11 are intelligible precisely because he is thinking of Jesus in terms of the non-atoning well-being sacrifices and their attendant regulations in Leviticus.
Nevertheless, when Jesus’s death is celebrated by a meta-“sacrificialization” of well-being offerings that are eaten, this then excludes any “atoning” function in these texts. No one is permitted to eat a purgation sacrifice that decontaminates their sin (neither priest nor lay). There are no exceptions to this. Knowing this, it is rather easy to see that the Lord’s Supper categorically cannot have any kipper function.478 We have already shown how even Matthew’s lone inclusion of the notion of “forgiveness” cannot be plausibly interpreted within the framework of kipper. Rather, it belongs within the context of the prophetic hope for Israel’s restoration, which will take the form of a moral purification—which which kipper sacrifices are inherently incapable of effecting—and the establishment of the (re)new(ed) covenant. It bears repeating that not only is it possible in general for “forgiveness of sins” to happen outside of the atoning sacrificial system, but that the prophetic expectation within which the NT authors explicitly situate the meaning of Jesus’s entire ministry is necessarily a forgiveness that must occur apart from the atoning sacrificial system because the sins that need forgiveness are moral impurities. And this is also why when the prophets draw upon Levitical concepts, they do so on analogy to bodily purification from the ritual impurities, which only require a combination of sufficient time lapse and a water-washing. As we saw, the time lapse is the exile and the water-washing is the immersion in God’s sanctifying Spirit. Neither of these are “sacrificial,” let alone sacrificial kipper.
This explains why water immersion is such a primary rite in John’s, Jesus’s, and Jesus’s followers’ ministries. This was a movement that conceived of “forgiveness” as moral purification on analogy to ritual purification, not kipper. Therefore, when something like “forgiveness” is mentioned, it is exegetically irresponsible to simply equate this with kipper since we now know the notion of forgiveness as it relates to the sacrificial system is extremely limited in scope. When analyzing any NT text about the saving significance of Jesus we need to understand that there are other frameworks besides “sacrifice” and “sacrificial kipper” within which the authors might be trying to express the benefits Jesus brings and/or the meaning of his death in particular.
Sacrificial atonement—kipper—is activated in a few NT texts, but I hope to show how once we have developed sufficient knowledge about the Levitical system and the prophetic expectations (and the reception of these things in the first century) it becomes rather obvious to know when this is happening. Thus, since Matthew’s construal of “forgiveness” is not related to the limited notion of forgiveness in Leviticus for atonable sins, then this means the function Jesus’s death has, according to Matthew, is something other than the kipper sacrifices. Moreover, “the only sacrificial interpretation of Jesus’ death that is attributed to Jesus himself”479 is that it inaugurates the promised (re)new(ed) covenant and is combined with Passover. This best explains why relating Jesus to kipper is rare in the NT. It is only directly stated in Hebrews and 1 John.480 This idea is an expansion on the original meaning and function of Jesus’s death, which drew upon communal non-atoning well-being sacrifices, which celebrate and mark occasions of divine deliverance and were not linked to kipper in any fashion—and the author of Hebrews acknowledges this, as we will see in chapter 6. Since it is clear now that the Lord’s Supper is linked with the communal non-atoning well-being sacrifices for Passover and a covenant-inauguration/renewal ceremony, here I will discuss more about how the function of these relates to Jesus’s mission of moral purification as well as address one other way some scholars have thought the Lord’s Supper includes the notion of kipper. Then I will discuss other NT texts apart from the Lord’s Supper account that likewise associate Jesus with either the Passover and/or a covenant-making sacrifice.
I'll finish reading through it a little later today. Thanks for sharing!@praise_yeshua let me know what you think. Thanks brother.
For me its good to see things through a different lens and learn some new ideas, concepts.