Harpadzo, better make sure you're ready

The Rogue Tomato said:
Quote the scripture in Revelation that says there's a 7 year tribulation period.
Click to expand...

In Revelation 11 and 12, John mentions 1,260 days in two prophecies concerning another persecution of the Jews during the end times. Daniel 8 speaks of 2,300 days in a prophecyconcerning a persecution of the Jewish people during the intertestamental period. The main differences between these two prophecies are 1) Daniel’s has been fulfilled, and John’s has not; and 2) Daniel predicts the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes, and John predicts those of the Antichrist.

The 1,260-day prophecy is found in two passages in Revelation. First, Revelation 11:2–3says,

“[The Gentiles] will trample on the holy city for 42 months. And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Then, as part of a symbolic vision, Revelation 12:6 says,

“The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.”

The time period covered, 1,260 days, figures to 42 months, or 3 1/2 years. We believe this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled but will be during the end-times tribulation. The 42 months refers to the reign of the Antichrist, specifically, the last half (3 1/2 years) of the seven-year tribulation. At the beginning of that time, the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and set up “the abomination that causes desolation” (Mark 13:14; cf. Daniel 9:27)—an act that links the Antichrist to Antiochus Epiphanes, who similarly defiled the temple. The Antichrist will then turn his attention to the genocide of the Jews. During the persecution, Israel (the woman of Revelation 12) will be protected by God in the wilderness. Also during that troubled time, God will send two witnesses to perform miracles and proclaim the truth of Christ in the face of the Antichrist’s lies (Revelation 11:5–6).

The detailed prophecies contained in God’s Word are part of what makes the Bible unique among religious texts. Our God can “make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come” (Isaiah 46:10), and He has revealed significant events in the future, counting out the very days of those periods of time.got?

hope this helps !!!
 
op: harpadzo - pre-trib rapture?
Absolutely Certain!:''

The Heavenly Hope of The Body Of Christ, according to 16+ Different Scriptural Points?:

1a) Peace With God!
1b) Which Bible version should I use?
2) Bible Study Rules
3) Three 'ages' Rightly Divided
4) Which Gospel 'makes way' for which gospel?
5) Great Tribulation, Or: tribulations/Great Grace Departure?
6) Departure 'expectations'
7) Heavenly Uplook for the Body Of Christ
8) Looking, Patiently waiting, and watching For 'Blessed Hope' (or 'signs'?)
9) God's Removal Of His Body Of Christ!:
10) The Day Of Christ vs Day Of The Lord vs Day Of God
11) Confidence in death/resurrection Or in living/glorification
12) No 'warning' Imminence
13) Two 'Trumps of God' In The Age of Grace
14) Meeting Christ 'in the air'
15) Preparation for 'Judgment Of The Entire Body Of Christ'
16) Post Departure Deceptions

Criticizers, Please do let us know which you would like to debunk first?

Notwithstanding, here are the Final 100 Rightly Divided Passages in Point 17, the
Conclusion, already available for Encouragement, Edification, and above all, Comfort:

"Wherefore Comfort one another with These Words!" (1Th 4:18 AV):​

Great Grace Departure!

Amen.
 
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civic said:
In Revelation 11 and 12, John mentions 1,260 days in two prophecies concerning another persecution of the Jews during the end times. Daniel 8 speaks of 2,300 days in a prophecyconcerning a persecution of the Jewish people during the intertestamental period. The main differences between these two prophecies are 1) Daniel’s has been fulfilled, and John’s has not; and 2) Daniel predicts the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes, and John predicts those of the Antichrist.

The 1,260-day prophecy is found in two passages in Revelation. First, Revelation 11:2–3says,

“[The Gentiles] will trample on the holy city for 42 months. And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Then, as part of a symbolic vision, Revelation 12:6 says,

“The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.”

The time period covered, 1,260 days, figures to 42 months, or 3 1/2 years. We believe this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled but will be during the end-times tribulation. The 42 months refers to the reign of the Antichrist, specifically, the last half (3 1/2 years) of the seven-year tribulation. At the beginning of that time, the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and set up “the abomination that causes desolation” (Mark 13:14; cf. Daniel 9:27)—an act that links the Antichrist to Antiochus Epiphanes, who similarly defiled the temple. The Antichrist will then turn his attention to the genocide of the Jews. During the persecution, Israel (the woman of Revelation 12) will be protected by God in the wilderness. Also during that troubled time, God will send two witnesses to perform miracles and proclaim the truth of Christ in the face of the Antichrist’s lies (Revelation 11:5–6).

The detailed prophecies contained in God’s Word are part of what makes the Bible unique among religious texts. Our God can “make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come” (Isaiah 46:10), and He has revealed significant events in the future, counting out the very days of those periods of time.got?

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
None of that says there is a 7 year tribulation period. 42 months is 3.5 years, not 7.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
When the man of sin is revealed, the great tribulation begins and continues until Jesus returns. The great tribulation is cut short. How short? Nobody knows. Therefore you can't know the day or hour when Jesus returns.
Click to expand...
Daniel 9 says the tribulation period begins with the signing of the treaty with Israel, to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

2 Thessalonians 2 says the man of perdition will be revealed when the Holy Spirit is removed.
The standard description for the pre-trib harpadzo is that because the Holy Spirit indwells the Jesus followers, when he who restrains restrains no more, the church is taken out of the world.

So far, nobody has ever been able to provide a coherent description for this to demonstrate that there is no pre-trib harpadzo.
 
SteveB said:
Daniel 9 says the tribulation period begins with the signing of the treaty with Israel, to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

2 Thessalonians 2 says the man of perdition will be revealed when the Holy Spirit is removed.
The standard description for the pre-trib harpadzo is that because the Holy Spirit indwells the Jesus followers, when he who restrains restrains no more, the church is taken out of the world.

So far, nobody has ever been able to provide a coherent description for this to demonstrate that there is no pre-trib harpadzo.
Click to expand...
Daniel 9: 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week

That refers to a 7 year period. There is nowhere in scripture that says there is a 7 year tribulation period. (Also, there are good arguments for that particular 7 year period having occurred in the past. But I won't argue that here.)
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
I challenged you to quote scripture that says there's a 7 year tribulation period, not a 3.5 year period.
Click to expand...
I see you have never studied the 70 weeks.

The “seventy weeks” prophecy is one of the most significant and detailed Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament. It is found in Daniel 9. The chapter begins with Daniel praying for Israel, acknowledging the nation’s sins against God and asking for God’s mercy. As Daniel prayed, the angel Gabriel appeared to him and gave him a vision of Israel’s future.

The Divisions of the 70 Weeks
In verse 24, Gabriel says, “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city.” Almost all commentators agree that the seventy “sevens” should be understood as seventy “weeks” of years, in other words, a period of 490 years. These verses provide a sort of “clock” that gives an idea of when the Messiah would come and some of the events that would accompany His appearance.

The prophecy goes on to divide the 490 years into three smaller units: one of 49 years, one of 434 years, and one 7 years. The final “week” of 7 years is further divided in half. Verse 25 says, “From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’” Seven “sevens” is 49 years, and sixty-two “sevens” is another 434 years:

49 years + 434 years = 483 years

The Purpose of the 70 Weeks
The prophecy contains a statement concerning God’s six-fold purpose in bringing these events to pass. Verse 24 says this purpose is 1) “to finish transgression,” 2) “to put an end to sin,” 3) “to atone for wickedness,” 4) “to bring in everlasting righteousness,” 5) “to seal up vision and prophecy,” and 6) “to anoint the most holy.”

Notice that these results concern the total eradication of sin and the establishing of righteousness. The prophecy of the 70 weeks summarizes what happens before Jesus sets up His millennial kingdom. Of special note is the third in the list of results: “to atone for wickedness.” Jesus accomplished the atonement for sin by His death on the cross (Romans 3:25; Hebrews 2:17).

The Fulfillment of the 70 Weeks
Gabriel said the prophetic clock would start at the time that a decree was issued to rebuild Jerusalem. From the date of that decree to the time of the Messiah would be 483 years. We know from history that the command to “restore and rebuild Jerusalem” was given by King Artaxerxes of Persia c. 444 B.C. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8).

The first unit of 49 years (seven “sevens”) covers the time that it took to rebuild Jerusalem, “with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble” (Daniel 9:25). This rebuilding is chronicled in the book of Nehemiah.

Converting the 360-day year used by the ancient Jews, 483 years becomes 476 years on our solar calendar. Adjusting for the switch from B.C. to A.D., 476 years after 444 B.C. places us at A.D. 33, which would coincide with Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:1–9). The prophecy in Daniel 9 specifies that, after the completion of the 483 years, “the Anointed One will be cut off” (verse 26). This was fulfilled when Jesus was crucified.

Daniel 9:26 continues with a prediction that, after the Messiah is killed, “the people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.” This was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The “ruler who will come” is a reference to the Antichrist, who, it seems, will have some connection with Rome, since it was the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem.

The Final Week of the 70 Weeks
Of the 70 “sevens,” 69 have been fulfilled in history. This leaves one more “seven” yet to be fulfilled. Many scholars believe that we are now living in a huge gap between the 69th week and the 70th week. The prophetic clock has been paused, as it were. The final “seven” of Daniel is what we usually call the tribulation period.

Daniel’s prophecy reveals some of the actions of the Antichrist, the “ruler who will come.” Verse 27 says, “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’” However, “in the middle of the ‘seven,’ . . . he will set up an abomination that causes desolation” in the temple. Jesus warned of this event in Matthew 24:15. After the Antichrist breaks the covenant with Israel, a time of “great tribulation” begins (Matthew 24:21, NKJV).

Daniel also predicts that the Antichrist will face judgment. He only rules “until the end that is decreed is poured out on him” (Daniel 9:27). God will only allow evil to go so far, and the judgment the Antichrist will face has already been planned out.

Conclusion
The prophecy of the 70 weeks is complex and amazingly detailed, and much has been written about it. Of course, there are various interpretations, but what we have presented here is the dispensational, premillennial view. One thing is certain: God has a time table, and He is keeping things on schedule. He knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and we should always be looking for the triumphant return of our Lord (Revelation 22:7).got !

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
I see you have never studied the 70 weeks.

The “seventy weeks” prophecy is one of the most significant and detailed Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament. It is found in Daniel 9. The chapter begins with Daniel praying for Israel, acknowledging the nation’s sins against God and asking for God’s mercy. As Daniel prayed, the angel Gabriel appeared to him and gave him a vision of Israel’s future.

The Divisions of the 70 Weeks
In verse 24, Gabriel says, “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city.” Almost all commentators agree that the seventy “sevens” should be understood as seventy “weeks” of years, in other words, a period of 490 years. These verses provide a sort of “clock” that gives an idea of when the Messiah would come and some of the events that would accompany His appearance.

The prophecy goes on to divide the 490 years into three smaller units: one of 49 years, one of 434 years, and one 7 years. The final “week” of 7 years is further divided in half. Verse 25 says, “From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’” Seven “sevens” is 49 years, and sixty-two “sevens” is another 434 years:

49 years + 434 years = 483 years

The Purpose of the 70 Weeks
The prophecy contains a statement concerning God’s six-fold purpose in bringing these events to pass. Verse 24 says this purpose is 1) “to finish transgression,” 2) “to put an end to sin,” 3) “to atone for wickedness,” 4) “to bring in everlasting righteousness,” 5) “to seal up vision and prophecy,” and 6) “to anoint the most holy.”

Notice that these results concern the total eradication of sin and the establishing of righteousness. The prophecy of the 70 weeks summarizes what happens before Jesus sets up His millennial kingdom. Of special note is the third in the list of results: “to atone for wickedness.” Jesus accomplished the atonement for sin by His death on the cross (Romans 3:25; Hebrews 2:17).

The Fulfillment of the 70 Weeks
Gabriel said the prophetic clock would start at the time that a decree was issued to rebuild Jerusalem. From the date of that decree to the time of the Messiah would be 483 years. We know from history that the command to “restore and rebuild Jerusalem” was given by King Artaxerxes of Persia c. 444 B.C. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8).

The first unit of 49 years (seven “sevens”) covers the time that it took to rebuild Jerusalem, “with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble” (Daniel 9:25). This rebuilding is chronicled in the book of Nehemiah.

Converting the 360-day year used by the ancient Jews, 483 years becomes 476 years on our solar calendar. Adjusting for the switch from B.C. to A.D., 476 years after 444 B.C. places us at A.D. 33, which would coincide with Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:1–9). The prophecy in Daniel 9 specifies that, after the completion of the 483 years, “the Anointed One will be cut off” (verse 26). This was fulfilled when Jesus was crucified.

Daniel 9:26 continues with a prediction that, after the Messiah is killed, “the people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.” This was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The “ruler who will come” is a reference to the Antichrist, who, it seems, will have some connection with Rome, since it was the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem.

The Final Week of the 70 Weeks
Of the 70 “sevens,” 69 have been fulfilled in history. This leaves one more “seven” yet to be fulfilled. Many scholars believe that we are now living in a huge gap between the 69th week and the 70th week. The prophetic clock has been paused, as it were. The final “seven” of Daniel is what we usually call the tribulation period.

Daniel’s prophecy reveals some of the actions of the Antichrist, the “ruler who will come.” Verse 27 says, “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’” However, “in the middle of the ‘seven,’ . . . he will set up an abomination that causes desolation” in the temple. Jesus warned of this event in Matthew 24:15. After the Antichrist breaks the covenant with Israel, a time of “great tribulation” begins (Matthew 24:21, NKJV).

Daniel also predicts that the Antichrist will face judgment. He only rules “until the end that is decreed is poured out on him” (Daniel 9:27). God will only allow evil to go so far, and the judgment the Antichrist will face has already been planned out.

Conclusion
The prophecy of the 70 weeks is complex and amazingly detailed, and much has been written about it. Of course, there are various interpretations, but what we have presented here is the dispensational, premillennial view. One thing is certain: God has a time table, and He is keeping things on schedule. He knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and we should always be looking for the triumphant return of our Lord (Revelation 22:7).got !

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
You still haven't quoted any scripture that says there will be a 7 year tribulation period.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
You still haven't quoted any scripture that says there will be a 7 year tribulation period.
Click to expand...
Just like you cannot quote what you believe from scripture such as the following

Trinity
Total depravity or inability
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Perseverance of the saints
Original sin
Predestination of individuals

And I could name several dozen other beliefs of yours you can’t find too. :)

Any more strawman arguments?

Next
 
civic said:
Just like you cannot quote what you believe from scripture such as the following

Trinity
Total depravity or inability
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Perseverance of the saints
Original sin
Predestination of individuals

And I could name several dozen other beliefs of yours you can’t find too. :)

Any more strawman arguments?

Next
Click to expand...

When I said there is no scripture saying there is a 7 year tribulation period, you said this:

civic said:
Sure it is in the book of revelations
Click to expand...

But you weren't able to quote any scripture from Revelation that there's a 7 year tribulation period. The future prediction about tribulation is here, and it refers to the midst of the 7 year period:

15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 [h]Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 [i]Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [k]elect those days will be cut short.

When the abomination of desolation appears, then there will be great tribulation. Note also the fact that the remaining 3.5 years will be cut short. How short? We don't know, therefore we cannot predict the day or hour of the return of Jesus.

There is no mention anywhere in the Bible that the first 3.5 years are years of tribulation, which would mean there's nothing in the Bible to support the idea of a 7 year tribulation period.
 
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The Rogue Tomato said:
There isn't even scripture to say that the 7 year period will be a period of tribulation. The future prediction about tribulation is here, and it refers to the midst of the 7 year period:

15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 [h]Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 [i]Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [k]elect those days will be cut short.

When the abomination of desolation appears, then there will be great tribulation. Note also the fact that the remaining 3.5 years will be cut short. How short? We don't know, therefore we cannot predict the day or hour of the return of Jesus.

There is no mention anywhere in the Bible that the first 3.5 years are years of tribulation, which would mean there's nothing in the Bible to support the idea of a 7 year tribulation period.
Click to expand...
If you understood Daniel and Revelation you wouldn’t make such nonsensical claims. 70 weeks and the use of 1290 days in several places make it clear.
 
civic said:
If you understood Daniel and Revelation you wouldn’t make such nonsensical claims. 70 weeks and the use of 1290 days in several places make it clear.
Click to expand...
If you understood Daniel and Revelation, you wouldn't make the nonsensical claim that there's a 7 year tribulation period.
 
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The Rogue Tomato said:
Daniel 9: 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week
Click to expand...
Yep.

The Rogue Tomato said:
That refers to a 7 year period.
Click to expand...
why yes! Yes it does.
The Rogue Tomato said:
There is nowhere in scripture that says there is a 7 year tribulation period. (Also, there are good arguments for that particular 7 year period having occurred in the past. But I won't argue that here.)
Click to expand...
Hey, you have nothing to concern yourself with.
Just tell all those unbelieving people you talk to about Jesus not to worry about it.
 
SteveB said:
Yep.


why yes! Yes it does.

Hey, you have nothing to concern yourself with.
Just tell all those unbelieving people you talk to about Jesus not to worry about it.
Click to expand...
It might be difficult for a Calvinist to tell someone who is lost that Jesus loves them and died for their sins.
 

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