Harpadzo, better make sure you're ready

[The Rogue Tomato]

Yep.


why yes! Yes it does.

Hey, you have nothing to concern yourself with.
Just tell all those unbelieving people you talk to about Jesus not to worry about it.

Exactly. I'm not worried, even though if the prophecy happens in my lifetime, I will be going through a great tribulation (although I suspect it's limited mostly to Israel). The Lord is with me, and will be with more if we spread the truth, which is more important than fussing over a tribulation period.

 

[SteveB]

It might be difficult for a Calvinist to tell someone who is lost that Jesus loves them and died for their sins.

Not my problem.
They're the one who has to live with that one.

 

[SteveB]

Exactly. I'm not worried, even though if the prophecy happens in my lifetime, I will be going through a great tribulation (although I suspect it's limited mostly to Israel). The Lord is with me, and will be with more if we spread the truth, which is more important than fussing over a tribulation period.

So, you think it's a good idea to ignore what Jesus says?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So, you think it's a good idea to ignore what Jesus says?

Not at all. If I happen to be in Judea when the SHTF, I will flee to the mountains, just like Jesus said.

 

[SteveB]

Not at all. If I happen to be in Judea when the SHTF, I will flee to the mountains, just like Jesus said.

Yet you're still going to ignore

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

?

He's giving us the resources to escape what's coming on the earth and to stand before him.

I.e., no need to go through the great tribulation.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Yet you're still going to ignore

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

?

He's giving us the resources to escape what's coming on the earth and to stand before him.

I.e., no need to go through the great tribulation.

I'm not following you. What does this have to do with the rapture? And are you saying men of faith who were martyred by stoning, crucifixion, etc., suffered those things because they got drunk and caroused?

 

[TomL]

Do you have anything at all that says trinity, or Bible?

Harpadzo is the word in Greek.
Rapiemur is the word in Latin.

I do have a novel idea.
Do you have the ability to learn?

Home - The Pre-Trib Research Center

www.pre-trib.org

Still you have not posted a single verse that actually speaks of it in a pre-trib non second advent manner

1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 (NASB 2020) — 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

 

[TomL]

Daniel 9 says the tribulation period begins with the signing of the treaty with Israel, to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

2 Thessalonians 2 says the man of perdition will be revealed when the Holy Spirit is removed.
The standard description for the pre-trib harpadzo is that because the Holy Spirit indwells the Jesus followers, when he who restrains restrains no more, the church is taken out of the world.

So far, nobody has ever been able to provide a coherent description for this to demonstrate that there is no pre-trib harpadzo.

The fact that it happens at the second advent and not seven years before then does so easily

1 Thessalonians 4:13–5:3 (KJV 1900) — 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The resurrection is at the last day - the day of the lord

It is accompasnied by

2 Peter 3:10–13 (KJV 1900) — 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Johann]

Daniel 9 says the tribulation period begins with the signing of the treaty with Israel, to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

2 Thessalonians 2 says the man of perdition will be revealed when the Holy Spirit is removed.
The standard description for the pre-trib harpadzo is that because the Holy Spirit indwells the Jesus followers, when he who restrains restrains no more, the church is taken out of the world.

So far, nobody has ever been able to provide a coherent description for this to demonstrate that there is no pre-trib harpadzo.

Not at all. If I happen to be in Judea when the SHTF, I will flee to the mountains, just like Jesus said.

Petra.

 

[101G]

My personal opinion the 2nd Coming the literal return of Christ is an essential Christian doctrine. The rapture is debatable as to its timing which is where most of the disagreements come from. I’ll go the battle with anyone over His 2nd Coming but I won’t divide over the rapture and its timing.

GINOLJC, to all.
second coming or second appearance. you said, " the 2nd Coming the literal return of Christ is an essential Christian doctrine." ok post your scriptures to this effect.

101G believe .... three coming, and two RETURNS. so 101G will be looking for your scriptural support for your beliefs.

101G.

 

[SteveB]

I'm not following you. What does this have to do with the rapture? And are you saying men of faith who were martyred by stoning, crucifixion, etc., suffered those things because they got drunk and caroused?

Well, since you clearly believe that you know more than we do, I'm thinking that you should stop asking questions you don't actually want answers to, and learn for yourself.

 

[SteveB]

The fact that it happens at the second advent and not seven years before then does so easily

1 Thessalonians 4:13–5:3 (KJV 1900) — 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The resurrection is at the last day - the day of the lord

It is accompasnied by

2 Peter 3:10–13 (KJV 1900) — 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

As I noted to Rogue, I won't waste your time.
It's obvious you lack the desire and the ability to learn.

 

[SteveB]

Still you have not posted a single verse that actually speaks of it in a pre-trib non second advent manner

1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 (NASB 2020) — 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

Your failure to provide ANYTHING in the Bible that actually says Trinity or Bible, demonstrates that this is a game to you.
I'm not interested in games.

 

[TomL]

Your failure to provide ANYTHING in the Bible that actually says Trinity or Bible, demonstrates that this is a game to you.
I'm not interested in games.

Absurd this is not a debate about the trinity or the bible

This is a debate about ther idea of a pretrib rapture

this we have a verse which places the catching up at the second coming of Christ along with the resurrection of the dead after any tribulation

1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 (ESV) — 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.


and verses which show the elect as being in the tribulation

Matthew 24:21–22 (ESV) — 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Revelation 7:9–14 (ESV) — 9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.” 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Nowhere do we read of any having escaped it by means of a rapture

 

[TomL]

As I noted to Rogue, I won't waste your time.
It's obvious you lack the desire and the ability to learn.

That is funny

You can't produce a verse which actually teaches what you believe and i can post verses contrary to it, but somehow you think that indicates I do not have a desire and ability to learn.

Sorry but it is your actions which indicate a lack of desire to learn

 

[SteveB]

Absurd this is not a debate about the trinity or the bible

This is a debate about ther idea of a pretrib rapture

this we have a verse which places the catching up at the second coming of Christ along with the resurrection of the dead after any tribulation

1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 (ESV) — 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.


and verses which show the elect as being in the tribulation

Matthew 24:21–22 (ESV) — 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Revelation 7:9–14 (ESV) — 9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.” 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Nowhere do we read of any having escaped it by means of a rapture

You have to first assume I'm interested in debate.
You still refused to answer my question, so you're forfeiting any right to debate.

 

[TomL]

You have to first assume I'm interested in debate.
You still refused to answer my question, so you're forfeiting any right to debate.

Thank you for admitting you have no desire to learn

Absurd this is not a debate about the trinity or the bible

This is a debate about ther idea of a pretrib rapture

this we have a verse which places the catching up at the second coming of Christ along with the resurrection of the dead after any tribulation

1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 (ESV) — 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.


and verses which show the elect as being in the tribulation

Matthew 24:21–22 (ESV) — 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Revelation 7:9–14 (ESV) — 9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.” 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[SteveB]

That is funny

You can't produce a verse which actually teaches what you believe and i can post verses contrary to it, but somehow you think that indicates I do not have a desire and ability to learn.

Sorry but it is your actions which indicate a lack of desire to learn

It's said that assumption is the mother of all f-ups.
Stop assuming.

 

[SteveB]

Thank you for admitting you have no desire to learn

Classic demonstration of your inability to reason clearly.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Thank you for admitting you have no desire to learn

Classic demonstration of your inability to reason clearly.

Well, since you clearly believe that you know more than we do, I'm thinking that you should stop asking questions you don't actually want answers to, and learn for yourself.

Insult wars is no way to discuss a topic.