Harpadzo, better make sure you're ready

[The Rogue Tomato]

How depressing

Not at all. Scripture says we WILL have tribulation. But we are not appointed to wrath. Look at all the martyrs, being stoned to death, hung upside down, burned at the cross, all tribulation. None of that is God's wrath. The idea that we want to go AWOL because we think we'll be spared some suffering is an insult to everyone who has REALLY suffered for Jesus.

The wrath begins when Jesus returns, and Jesus only returns once. Here:

12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

2 Thessalonians:

2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

If you believe there will be a future 7 year period, and that in the middle of it the man of sin is revealed (abomination of desolation), then the text above shows that Paul expected his readers to experience that. Why tell them that the man of sin must be revealed first, if they will be raptured 3.5 years before it happens?

 

[SteveB]

Not at all. Scripture says we WILL have tribulation.

Yep.

But we are not appointed to wrath.

correct.

Look at all the martyrs, being stoned to death, hung upside down, burned at the cross, all tribulation.

correct.

None of that is God's wrath.

Ok.

The idea that we want to go AWOL because we think we'll be spared some suffering is an insult to everyone who has REALLY suffered for Jesus.

You may want to go AWOL.
I'm not seeing anything about awol-ness in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:9.

The wrath begins when Jesus returns, and Jesus only returns once. Here:

12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Ok.
not seeing anything about the followers of Jesus being present for this.

2 Thessalonians:

2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

what do you think that is saying?
i see that Jesus has yet to come, and a serious problem I'm seeing here is that you stopped short of the whole thing.
the Son of perdition can't be revealed until the restrainer restrains no more, or is removed.

If you believe there will be a future 7 year period, and that in the middle of it the man of sin is revealed (abomination of desolation), then the text above shows that Paul expected his readers to experience that. Why tell them that the man of sin must be revealed first, if they will be raptured 3.5 years before it happens?

Sounds like you're saying that we'll be able to actually know the day when Jesus will come to take his bride.

What is the determining factor of when the abomination of desolation occurs?
I.e., when does the clock start for the final 7 years?

 

[TomL]

In other words, I'm not actually allowed to rest In Jesus, and must waste my time arguing with people who are desperate to keep people from trusting in the hope of Jesus?

Escaping the world is not the hope of Jesus

 

[TomL]

Looks like you're scratching the dirt for something you can't find.

Have at it.
I have more important matters to attend to.

Oh, BTW,
I'll continue to hold firm to Luke 21:34-36.

I have yet to see where you've figured anything out.

Luke 21:34–36 (KJV 1900) — 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

says nothing at all about a rapture

you have to read that into the passage

 

[SteveB]

Escaping the world is not the hope of Jesus

It sure would be nice if you could actually understand what you read.

The hope of Jesus is:

To be freed from sin.
To be freed from the condemnation of sin.
To be freed from the presence of sin.

Sounds like a great escape to me!

Upon the death of this body, I house, just what do you think I'll be able to enjoy?

When your body dies, what will you be able to enjoy?

So, actually.... yes! Escaping the world is in fact the hope of Jesus!

The harpadzo is the escape from the presence of sin for the followers of Jesus.
It's an event determined by the Father. Not the Christians.
We never concocted such an idea.
Nor did Paul, nor Jesus, nor Isaiah, nor anyone else who was involved in writing scripture.


Your ongoing refusal to actually answer my questions is demonstrating to me your lack of understanding and knowledge of the scripture.

In other words, I'm not actually allowed to rest In Jesus, and must waste my time arguing with people who are desperate to keep people from trusting in the hope of Jesus?

Keep it up Tom. You'll irrelevantize yourself real quick!

 

[SteveB]

Luke 21:34–36 (KJV 1900) — 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

says nothing at all about a rapture
you have to read that into the passage

Scary concept.
It actually says...

Oh... wait... I forgot. You said that the hope of Jesus isn't to escape the world....
Oops... apparently the hope of Jesus is indeed to escape the world and what is coming upon the earth....

Darn those pesky facts!

 

[Johann]

It sure would be nice if you could actually understand what you read.

The hope of Jesus is:

To be freed from sin.
To be freed from the condemnation of sin.
To be freed from the presence of sin.

Sounds like a great escape to me!

Upon the death of this body, I house, just what do you think I'll be able to enjoy?

When your body dies, what will you be able to enjoy?

So, actually.... yes! Escaping the world is in fact the hope of Jesus!

The harpadzo is the escape from the presence of sin for the followers of Jesus.
It's an event determined by the Father. Not the Christians.
We never concocted such an idea.
Nor did Paul, nor Jesus, nor Isaiah, nor anyone else who was involved in writing scripture.


Your ongoing refusal to actually answer my questions is demonstrating to me your lack of understanding and knowledge of the scripture.

In other words, I'm not actually allowed to rest In Jesus, and must waste my time arguing with people who are desperate to keep people from trusting in the hope of Jesus?

Keep it up Tom. You'll irrelevantize yourself real quick!

Go have a rest @SteveB
Shalom to you and family
Johann.

 

[SteveB]

Go have a rest @SteveB
Shalom to you and family
Johann.

Todah robah.
Erev tov.

 

[Johann]

Todah robah.
Erev tov.

ad sheyavo Adonenu Yeshua HaMashiach Achi!
Johann.

 

[TomL]

Scary concept.
It actually says...

Oh... wait... I forgot. You said that the hope of Jesus isn't to escape the world....
Oops... apparently the hope of Jesus is indeed to escape the world and what is coming upon the earth....

Darn those pesky facts!

Do you have anything at all that actually speaks of a pretrib rapture?

Something you do not have to read rapture into?

 

[TomL]

It sure would be nice if you could actually understand what you read.

The hope of Jesus is:

To be freed from sin.
To be freed from the condemnation of sin.
To be freed from the presence of sin.

Newsflash none of those things are a rapture

 

[Johann]

Do you have anything at all that actually speaks of a pretrib rapture?

Something you do not have to read rapture into?

Can you leave the brother in peace? You are hounding him.

 

[TomL]

Can you leave the brother in peace? You are hounding him.

Simply replying to him.

You are not entitled to tell anyone they cannot reply

 

[Johann]

Simply replying to him.

You are not entitled to tell anyone they cannot reply

You are hounding him and I think I'm entitled to caution you since you are overstepping boundaries @TomL.

 

[TomL]

You are hounding him and I think I'm entitled to caution you since you are overstepping boundaries @TomL.

Sorry you do not get to set boundaries

You are overstepping yours

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Sounds like you're saying that we'll be able to actually know the day when Jesus will come to take his bride.

When the man of sin is revealed, the great tribulation begins and continues until Jesus returns. The great tribulation is cut short. How short? Nobody knows. Therefore you can't know the day or hour when Jesus returns.

 

[civic]

When the man of sin is revealed, the great tribulation begins and continues until Jesus returns. The great tribulation is cut short. How short? Nobody knows. Therefore you can't know the day or hour when Jesus returns.

Nope he is revealed 3 1/2 years into the trib.

 

[Johann]

Sorry you do not get to set boundaries

You are overstepping yours

Everyone of us have our own boundaries, you are intruding into HIS free time in real time-don't you get it?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Nope he is revealed 3 1/2 years into the trib.

That's when the time of GREAT tribulation begins. There is no such thing as a seven year tribulation period. There may be a 7 year period, but nowhere in scripture is it referred to a tribulation period.

 

[civic]

That's when the time of GREAT tribulation begins. There is no such thing as a seven year tribulation period. There may be a 7 year period, but nowhere in scripture is it referred to a tribulation period.

Sure it is in the book of revelations