SteveB
Well-known member
And yet I'm still expected to engage your dialog AFTER I've asked you to stop.
You should consider that in your complaint.
Harpadzo, better make sure you're ready
- Thread starter SteveB
- Start date
You should consider that in your complaint.
Clear reasoning
The order in a pretrib premillenial worldview
Rapture - tribulation - second coming of Christ - resurrection
What 1Th 4:15 shows
The second coming of Christ - resurrection - rapture
1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
And if reading Mat 24 as speaking of that tribulation
Matthew 24:29–31 (KJV 1900) — 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
the second coming is preceded by the tribulation
giving an order.
tribulation - second coming - resurrection - rapture
clearly the order of pretrib premillenialism is not the order of the bible
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
The Final Week of the 70 Weeks
but I do have a couple of questions, not being much of a prophecy expert ( more on
The Mystery/Pre-trib doctrinal side of Scripture
):
How does this ( "fall of Israel" Acts 7? ) fit in with "the final weeks":
If this is about Christ's ministry to "the lost sheep of Israel", then?:
a) 69th week did not 'end' At The Cross, thus this "one year" is included in that week?
timetable: prophecy halted - (Grace/Departure) - prophecy resumed with a 6-year ''week", as per?:
Thus in the middle of “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven’”,
the last 3.5 will only be 2.5, eh?
Amen.
?Hopefully much desire to 'learn' as exhibited in #66 ( uh-oh 2/3 of a bad # = no interest? ),
but I do have a couple of questions, not being much of a prophecy expert ( more on
The Mystery/Pre-trib doctrinal side of Scripture
):How does this ( "fall of Israel" Acts 7? ) fit in with "the final weeks":
"He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard;
and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the
dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig
tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig
about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou
shalt cut it down." (Luke 13:6-9 cp "axe laid to the root" Matthew 3:10/Luke 3:9 AV)
If this is about Christ's ministry to "the lost sheep of Israel", then?:
a) 69th week did not 'end' At The Cross, thus this "one year" is included in that week?
timetable: prophecy halted - (Grace) - prophecy resumes with a full 7-year ''week"?
Or:b) The 70th week started At The Cross, thus this "one year" then shortens the 70th week?
timetable: prophecy halted - (Grace/Departure) - prophecy resumed with a 6-year ''week", as per?:
"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for
the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20 AV)
Thus in the middle of “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven’”,
the last 3.5 will only be 2.5, eh?
Don't you just love a good ( thought-provoking/learning ) Bible study?Amen.
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Johann
Well-known member
I do, most definitely @Grace ambassadorThe Final Week of the 70 Weeks
?Hopefully much desire to 'learn' as exhibited in #66 ( uh-oh 2/3 of a bad # = no interest? ),
but I do have a couple of questions, not being much of a prophecy expert ( more on
The Mystery/Pre-trib doctrinal side of Scripture
How does this ( "fall of Israel" Acts 7? ) fit in with "the final weeks":
"He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard;and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto thedresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this figtree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall digabout it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thoushalt cut it down." (Luke 13:6-9 cp "axe laid to the root" Matthew 3:10/Luke 3:9 AV)
If this is about Christ's ministry to "the lost sheep of Israel", then?:
a) 69th week did not 'end' At The Cross, thus this "one year" is included in that week?
timetable: prophecy halted - (Grace) - prophecy resumes with a full 7-year ''week"?Or:
b) The 70th week started At The Cross, thus this "one year" then shortens the 70th week?
timetable: prophecy halted - (Grace) - prophecy resumed with a 6-year ''week", as per?:
"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but forthe elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20 AV)
Thus in the middle of “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven’”,
the last 3.5 will only be 2.5, eh?
Don't you just love a good ( thought-provoking/learning ) Bible study?
Amen.
Johann.
SteveB
Well-known member
I agree!
Your description is not the order of the Bible.
So, as you stated up front that you're using clear reasoning, I'd say that you have definitively demonstrated that you don't actually know what clear reasoning is.
I have a novel idea for you.
Stop talking to me about how you have clear reasoning and go read the website I'd provided you yesterday.
Home - The Pre-Trib Research Center
Make sure you actually understand what they're saying.
Because if you come back and continue to tell me what you think we believe, I'll just ignore you.
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Precious friend:
Unless "kept IN God's Contexts" and...
Mystery / Grace, for The [ Heavenly ] Body Of Christ
Rapture / resurrection = going ↑ Home!
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
prophecy / covenants / law, for [ earthly ] Israel
tribulation - second coming of Christ ↑ - resurrection = "staying on earth"!
...and "Rightly Dividing" them, of course...
Amen.
Um that was not my order but the order of the pretrib premillenial systemI agree!
Your description is not the order of the Bible.
So, as you stated up front that you're using clear reasoning, I'd say that you have definitively demonstrated that you don't actually know what clear reasoning is.
I have a novel idea for you.
Stop talking to me about how you have clear reasoning and go read the website I'd provided you yesterday.
Home - The Pre-Trib Research Center
www.pre-trib.org
Make sure you actually understand what they're saying.
Because if you come back and continue to tell me what you think we believe, I'll just ignore you.
the fact you will not deal with it other than to issue a bald denial says much
Clear reasoning
The order in a pretrib premillenial worldview
Rapture - tribulation - second coming of Christ - resurrection
What 1Th 4:15 shows
The second coming of Christ - resurrection - rapture
1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
And if reading Mat 24 as speaking of that tribulation
Matthew 24:29–31 (KJV 1900) — 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
the second coming is preceded by the tribulation
giving an order.
Tribulation - second coming - resurrection - rapture
clearly the order of Pretrib Premillenialism is not the order of the bible
Either show I have misrepresented the order of the Pretrib Premill system or I erred in giving the bibles order
Um that does not address my argument and if you think i got the pretrib order wrong then post your proofStop talking to me about how you have clear reasoning and go read the website I'd provided you yesterday.
Home - The Pre-Trib Research Center
Make sure you actually understand what they're saying.
Because if you come back and continue to tell me what you think we believe, I'll just ignore you.
Saying go to this website is proof of nothing (BTW it does not even appear to address an order)
A better methodology is address the scriptures posted and try to prove error
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SteveB
Well-known member
I see you have chosen to refuse to read the articles contained on the website I provided you.
As such, I'd say we're done here.
Don't bother me anymore.
And you refused to address scripture
Either show I have misrepresented the order of the Pretrib Premill system or I erred in giving the bibles order
I am of the opinion we are to believe scripture, the word of God over the opinion of man
SteveB
Well-known member
No. I refuse to engage you any further, for the same exact reasons as before.
You fail to change your tactics.
I did. You clearly refuse to read the articles on the website I provided you.
I'm not interested in arguing about this.
I do believe scripture.
It's you I don't believe.
My tactics are to quote scripture
Your's - ignore the scripture quoted and say go read a book or a website
Which sound more like the way a Christian is supposed to ascertain spiritual truth?
SteveB
Well-known member
Articles/Books/websites written by people who have a lot more knowledge, education and experience than either one of us.
Since you clearly despise knowledge and understanding, I'd say mine.
Pro 1:7 WEB The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of knowledge, but the foolish despise wisdom and instruction.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Have you read Dwight D. Pentacost "Things to Come"? That's the book that made me realize pre-trib is wrong, ironically because he mildly concluded it was right. But his arguments from scripture were faulty. I remember quoting it to my sister, and she saw the problem before I did.
Insults do not contribute to a discussion.
Johann
Well-known member
You do realize you are admonishing, wrongly, an elder, firmly rooted in Christ Jesus?
Johann
Well-known member
This was unnecessary @The Rogue Tomato.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Why? He was doing an "appeal to authority" and I mentioned an authority.
Johann
Well-known member
Please be careful brother.Why? He was doing an "appeal to authority" and I mentioned an authority.
SteveB
Well-known member
Nope.
the teachers I've studied under have.
Dwight wasn't the only theologian who wrote about it though. So if you're basing your entire perspective on what he said, I'd say that you shut down your mind and blindly believed him. For no other reason than his ideas "made sense" to you.
the teachers I studied under taught (from the pulpit) pre, mid, post-trib, pre-mill, post-mill, and amill and then explained why they don't agree with the rest, but do agree with the pre-trib, pre-mill, dispensationalism views.
Several years ago I began to question the pre-trib, premill views, but nobody ever gave a satisfactory description.
Too many holes, and questions unanswered or not connecting.
At this point I'm satisfied with the pre-trib, premillenial, dispensationalism view.
I think the most important element for me is.... it motivates diligence in learning to live godly in Christ.
The next is... it leaves the "no man knows the day or hour" element intact.
Mid-trib, and post-trib both open the door to being able to figure out the day.
The moment the treaty is signed between Israel and the antichrist, 1260 days until the middle of the tribulation when he stands in the holy of holies, and declares himself to be God.
Then we go to the end, 1290 days, and Jesus returns, setting foot on the Mt. of Olives, and another 45 days of judging the nations, at which point we enter the Kingdom of God on earth for the Millennium.
Pre-trib removes the church from the world, opening the door to God dealing directly with Israel, to finish the 490 years of Daniel 9, with the last 7 years.
A whole new era opens up, and the Revelation of Jesus becomes daily news.
The antichrist is revealed to the world at the signing of the treaty.
How many other books on the topic have you read?
Well...
The easiest way to deal with that is...
If you genuinely believe that I'm insulting...
Stop talking to me.
Not the most effective, but for you, the easiest.
Before you go, I want to ask you to read the following passages.
1- 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, specifically vss 6-7.
2- Psalms 141:5
3- Proverbs 27:5-6.
After you read those and consider them, decide your response.
Grace and Truth be with you in Christ.
