civic
Active Member
Stick to the topic of Jesus declaring the new covenant in His blood with His disciples
Gods Inability to save
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
I certainly do!!
GOD offered the covenant of election and salvation to anyone / everyone who wanted to join HIS family and live within HIS holiness before the foundation of the world!
Some of HIS creation chose to accept HIS gospel of election and salvation and indeed become HIS elect, HIS sheep. Others rebuked HIM as a liar and a false god and were condemned as reprobate on the spot.
Then some of HIS elect sheep went astray into sin themselves but as under HIS promise of salvation found in their election they were never condemned for their lapse into sinfulness, Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. while those who rebuked HIS offer and HIS Divinthy as lies were condemned already from then on, Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
As you asked, I think this all happened before the foundation of the world and those who are sinners are all sent here to earth for the perfection of HIS sheep gone astray into sinfulness thru Christ and HIS great mercy for us...
brightfame52
Active Member
I am, for I believe the New Covenant is the Everlasting Covenant being made known in time. The Everlasting Covenant has always been in operation, for David spoke of it on his deathbed as it was made known to him 2 Sam 23:5
5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.
Jesus is the surety of that Covenant
brightfame52
Active Member
JoshebB
Active Member
Now you've (once again) contradicted yourself because if the scripture spoke for themselves in these regards you would never have to say something/anything stands to reason.
This discussion is not about me. It's not about you, either. The fact is your posts contain factually incorrect information, multiple logical errors, and a pile of eisegesis. I have pointed some of them out and you've refused to correct any of them (or prove them correct).
You are on record stating God has an inability to save. You did not actually prove that is something any Calvinist anywhere at any time has asserted. It's a very simple matter because if this op is built on a falsehood, then no one should give the op any credence whatsoever - regardless ot their soteriological orientation! So provide for us proof someone teaches God has an inability to save OR acknowledge that statement is factually incorrect and everything built on the falsehood is irrational.
JoshebB
Active Member
And yet the verses I have posted provide a much different, much more encompassing definition and it is you who is stuck in theological doctrine, not whole scripture. You've also contradicted yourself because if the Christ covenant pre-existed the incarnation (as was asserted by you) then there was a covenant prior to his "blood and death," as you have just posted. You cannot have it both ways. Either the covenant pre-existed or it began with Christ's death.
Nice try but I have not posted covenant theology. I have posted scripture. Paul ties the new covenant in Christ all the way back to Abraham and you are not addressing that fact. You are attempting an ad hominem diversion. You have not proven your own reasoning valid. You have not addressed the point about the pre-existing covenant supposedly precluding Christ's humanity. Nothing in the Bible (not even the book of Hebrews) refutes my posts and you are dodging the salient points I have brought to your attention.
Stop being unnecessarily adversarial and avoidant. Go back through the thread and address my concerns one point at a time and do it without ever mentioning me personally or Covenant Theology. Would you like me to post the list of concerns you've failed to address so far or are you capable of doing so without my assistance?
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
you do understand Abraham's covenant had two parts essentially in it do you not?
One for salvation of the world
One for a specific nation he would call out through abraham
and that one is silvic (in you shall all nations be blessed (christ)
and one is not?
JoshebB
Active Member
That is Dispensational Premillennialism not scripture.
My answer to that will be to ask you one single, specific question over and over every time you cite an Old Testament verse as justification for your positions.
What does the New Testament say about that Old Testament verse?
For example, the promise of a nation was explicitly stated to have been fulfilled in the New Testament in the Church. Why is it, then, you say there are two parts when both parts are explicitly stated to have been fulfilled in the Church, beginning in the NT era? The answer to that question is simply and solely because you subscribe to the teachings of modern futurism and that theology teaches its adherents the covenant has two parts. That theology teaches there are two peoples of God, and two purposes of God. That is not something actually stated anywhere in scripture. It is an assumption made by modern futurism based on an inferential reading of scripture (despite modern futurism's teaching scripture should be read literally).
1 Peter 2:3
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
That is one of the places the New Testament addresses God's promise to Abraham (and his descendants) found in the Old Testament. There are several others. Modern futurisms like Dispensational Premillennialism deny the principle the newer, later revelations from God define the older ones. The OT does not stand on its own. The promises of the OT do not stand on their own, either. Everything reported in the OT is part of a much larger whole that includes what we call the New Testament. The Old Testament informs the New Testament, and the New Testament explains the Old. For example, Pauls describes specific events that happened during Moses' time and he explicitly states,
1 Corinthians 10:6, 11
Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they indeed craved them...... Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore, let the one who thinks he stands watch out that he does not fall.
Paul, not me, explicitly ties the events of Moses to the NT era AND he does so eschatologically, AND he does so saying the prophetic content of the exodus applied to the Church right then and there in the first century. The ends of the ages had come. He makes no statement about when the ends of the ages end, but they had already fallen at the time he was writing to the Church in Corinth. Paul was not writing specifically to Jews.
There's another problem with modern futurisms' teaching on the "nation" of Israel. Israel was not called a nation until well after they'd conquered and divided up the promised land. There was no nation of Israel before then. I think I have already elaborated on that earlier in this thread but if I am thinking of another thread then please just ask for that information and I will gladly post it. It boils down to the fact the word "Israel' literally means "God perseveres," or "those in whom God perseveres," and after Jacob was given than name his descendants of promise were called the "sons of Israel" for centuries before any geo-political nation-state "Israel" ever existed. If you do a word search of the word "Israel" in the book of Revelation, you will find the word occurs only three times and NONE of those three mentions is specifically about the geo-political nation-state Israel. That fact shocks most Dispensationalists. Few have ever realized that fact and they've all been taught something entirely different.
Lastly, God promised Abraham he would be the father of many nations, not one nation. Later, God stated he would make his people into a nation of priests.
Exodus 19:5-6
Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”
What does the New Testament say about that verse? According to Moses, God promised He would make His people into a nation of priests. According to Peter, that promised was fulfilled in the Church. According to Peter the promise Abraham would be the father of many nations was fulfilled in the Church, not the geo-political nation-state Israel. The Church, being comprised of many nations (both Jewish and Gentile) is a fulfillment of that Old Testament promise. That is not about what my theology or your theology says on the matter. That is what the New Testament explicitly states.
Take this up in a separate thread with me if you want to discuss this more because this op is about @civic's reprehensibly misguided misrepresentation of monergism and the unsubstantiated, baseless, belief God has an inability to save some. No one believes that.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Actually it is scripture
Gen 12:
12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
2 parts.
A nation,
a blessing to all nations
the national covenant did not guarantee any in that nation would be saved..
the blessing to all nations. is salvation offered to all nations
lol
Once again
God promised Abraham that a nation would come from him
And he also promised that through his seed (christ) all nations would be blessed.
In gen 15. He gave Abraham the boundaries of that nation.
And in Gen 17, he said this promise would be given forever.. in every generation
if you do not get context between the 2 aspects of the covenant down. Nothing you see in the NT will have any meaning.
But in any case. Is Gods promise to Israel still in tact?
Study romans 11. The GIFTS and calling of God are irreversible
No. this is not the case. this is replacement theology. If it was given to the church, the church should be living in Palestine/Israel and living in peace because it is obedient to God.
The church did not fulfill the land promise given to one nation.
The church fulfilles the promise of all nations (jew and greek) being blessed through the seed of Abraham
again, if you can not separate the 2. you will never understand prophecy
yawn
Lev 26 Study it. Study what God said he would do if Israel disobayes God.
and study what God will do even after God scatters them all throughout the earth if they repent.
JoshebB
Active Member
And what does the New Testament say about Genesis 12:1-3? Romans 11 is not about the geo-political nation-state Israel, nor is it about the 21st century. Neither can you use chapter 11 by itself because chapter 11 is part of a larger narrative that is three chapters in length. You must render chapters 9-11 as a whole in order to be correct.
So....
Again....
What you've done is post Dispensationalism, not scripture. What does the New Testament say about Genesis 12:1-3? You should be asking yourself this question EVERY time you hear any preacher make claims about any Old Testament verse. Start a separate op on the matter, mention me in it and I'll post accordingly. I will not contribute further to the hijacking of this thread.
What does the New Testament say about Genesis 12:1-3?
.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
it says that God had a greater thing than a nation or a land.. which Abraham prefered (he never got to recieve the land promise)
lol
11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 ;God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
Nice try
Amen
Romans 9 - 11 is God trying to explain toe israel situation
1. Did God make a mistake chosing Israel?
2. He answered the lies being promoted by some jews (Israel was not chosen because their fathers wer righteous, or the human way
3. He showed it was prophesied Israel would fall away, and gentiles would be brought in
4. He shows God is not done with Israel. at some point (when the fullness of the gentile is completed) Israel will repent and they will all be saved
5. He tells us gentiles not to boast..
so why are you boasting?
lol.
Your posing replacement theology.
God does not go back on his promises.. If he does. i will tell you right now. You better worry. Because if God will not keep his promise to them,l you have zero assurance he will keep his promise to you
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JoshebB
Active Member
Then my posts have been misread, and I encourage a re-reading because that is most definitely NOT what I am posing. Not even close. I reject RT. Gentiles are grafted into the exact same tree into which Israel (those in whom God perseveres) are already branches. The Church does NOT replace Israel.
But the accusation is a very common one leveled by Dispensationalists who either genuinely fail to understand or willingly post the accusation knowing it is false.
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JoshebB
Active Member
No
And? Is there a question in there. The Israel God chose was not a geo-political nation-state. That is the error laying at the foundation of every protest posted. The nation did not exist for centuries after God first initiated the covenant. It was not a geo-political nation-state to whom God made covenant promises. Any belief to the contrary places the onus on the dissenter to make that case and prove the alternative. That's on you, not me.
Yep. The nation fell away. Those in whom God persevered did not.
Reality testifies otherwise. The modern nation of Israel is not covenant Israel restored. That is another commonly occurring mistake in modern futurism. It is baselessly claimed modern Israel is the fulfillment of covenant promises to restore covenant Israel when that is demonstrably not the case.
Yep.
If you cannot refrain from personally derisive insinuations, I will not trade posts with you further. Stow that dross. Keep the posts about the posts, not the posters.
Any mods paying attention? Please watch these posts and sanction personal attacks.
JoshebB
Active Member
Romans 9-11 explicitly states it is about events occurring in the first century, events that would occur at the time Paul was writing the epistle.
Romans 11:5
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
Paul explicitly stated, "at the present time," NOT "in the 21st century." The remnant being preserved as one being preserved at the present time, the time present to Paul's epistle. Were you or I to write, "At the present time Donald Trump is instituting tariffs." we would not and could not possible mean Donald Trump is instigating tariffs twenty-one centuries later. The words "At the present time a remnant exists of a given group," cannot be made to say that remnant is being preserved thousands of years later, especially not after those in the group have died or God has seen fit to end their existence.
The promises of God are everlasting. The promises of blessing are everlasting and so too are the promises of destruction. Read Deuteronomy 28 and count the number of times God promises destruction. Read it now.
The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me.
The LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.
So all these curses shall come on you and pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you would not obey the LORD your God by keeping His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you.
Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and a glad heart, for the abundance of all things; therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in the lack of all things; and He will put an iron yoke on your neck until He has destroyed you.
Moreover, it shall eat the offspring of your herd and the produce of your ground until you are destroyed, who also leaves you no grain, new wine, or oil, nor the increase of your herd or the young of your flock until they have caused you to perish.
Also every sickness and every plague which, not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring on you until you are destroyed.
It shall come about that as the LORD delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the LORD will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you will be torn from the land where you are entering to possess it.
The LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.
So all these curses shall come on you and pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you would not obey the LORD your God by keeping His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you.
Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and a glad heart, for the abundance of all things; therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in the lack of all things; and He will put an iron yoke on your neck until He has destroyed you.
Moreover, it shall eat the offspring of your herd and the produce of your ground until you are destroyed, who also leaves you no grain, new wine, or oil, nor the increase of your herd or the young of your flock until they have caused you to perish.
Also every sickness and every plague which, not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring on you until you are destroyed.
It shall come about that as the LORD delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the LORD will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you will be torn from the land where you are entering to possess it.
And that is exactly what happened. After many centuries of preserving a remnant whenever the nation of Israel broke its covenant with God, God kept His everlasting promises. He destroyed the covenant-breakers. Those in whom He persevered, whether Hebrew, Jewish, or Gentile, He brought to salvation in His resurrected Son.
Hebrews 11:39-40
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
The men and women of faith who were faithful to God are made complete in us, those who will inherit salvation. That is what scripture states. I'm posting scripture. You are posting modern futurism.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
replacement theology states God promise to national Israel is now fulfilled by the church.
it appears this is what you are saying.
or are you saying Gods promise to national Israel is no longer in effect. IE God has gone back on his promise
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Yes
the fatalistic view of romans 9 - 11 is seriously flawed.
Interesting
Gen 12:
12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you.
2. I will make you a great nation;
So your saying this land and this nation is no a valid promise?
Gen 15:
15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
This answers the time period. but are you saying this nation. this plot of land. these nations God has given to the children of Abraham (through Isaac and jacob) is not valid?
Gen 17:
8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
So your saying this eternal promise Given to Abraham, and this land which was a gift to him, is not a valid promise?
One thing to remember, This promise was given to Abraham, the gift is his. As direct descendants of Abraham through Isaac. they receive the promise as an inheritance.
But as romans 9 and 10 declare. it was prophesied the nation would fall away. And that Gentiles would be brought in. So it should have been no surprise to anyone..
Romans 11 also states even though they fell away. they will repent and return, and God will keep his promise to them. (along with Lev 26 and many OT prophets who declare the same thing)
I never said they were. The time of the gentiles is not yet done.. Alot of things has to happen for Israel to be restored. the first being they must repent.
Who said anything about modern Israel. again. all modern Israel does is set the state for the final chapter in our age. that Jesus spoke of in Matt 24
sorry, I was just trying to ask why you appear to be doing what Paul warned you and I not to do, we should both take heed and make sure we do not fall into this trap
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
the fullness of the gentiles is not yet complete. Nor has the redeemer returned to gather his people and restor them to what he promised the fathers.
concerning Israel. Paul said this
romans 11:
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
1. At this time in the future, God will turn Jacob (Israel) back to him. they will repent. and at that time, they all will be saved (there is no longer just a remnant)
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”
2. Notice. this is Gods covenant with them. Not Us.
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
3. Modern Israel as of today are still enemies of the gospel. they still have rejected their messiah. Although there is still a remnant. I personally know quite a few modern day jews who have received Christ and are walking.
4. God gave their fathers a gift. so these enemies of the cross are still to be beloved (I will bless those who bless you) because of Gods promise to them
which remains in effect.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Again, the fatalisitc view of romans 9 - 11 is flawed.
Romans 11 is pauls final answer to the Israel problem. what now.
try reading lev 26
1. God gave Israel this promise. if you do not obey, this is the final thing I will do to you
27 And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
Now this happened three times in the history of the nation
1. Assyria did this to the northern kingdom -
2. Babylon did this to Judah
3. Rome did this in 70 AD - Israel has pretty much been in desolation ever since.
But this is not the end. Because God also made this promise
40 But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land.
If you study, Daniel prayed this in Dan 9. quoting this very passage
also. The israel of today has not done this
Its interesting, they not only have to confess they sinned, But they have to confess it is because of their sin and the sins of the fathers God did this to them, they have to acknowledge everything
