As opposed to your fatalism
God requires man to HUMBLE THEMSELVES
- Thread starter civic
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You are stuck in fatalism and denial
Logic and scripture just do not support his fatalism
You are a Open Theist. I, however, am a determinist, not a fatalist.
So now your saying God could not have?
Got Scripture
If my head is in the sand, I'm looking you right in the eye Pelagius
Look who's talking. It's Mr. Hindu with his elect/non-elect fatalistically determinative caste system.
Empty rhetoric devoid of substance.
civic
Well-known member
As opposed to your Open Theism and your learning god
Sure. Not the desire however.
civic
Well-known member
so God can choose something He doesn't desire and contrary to His will ?
next fallacy
civic
Well-known member
as opposed to your fatalism
fatalism typically presents a more pessimistic view that events are fixed( calvinist predestination , WCF ) and beyond human intervention or choice. ( calvinism-man cannot choose other then what God ordained to occur )
Theological Determinism: This perspective holds that a divine entity or a higher power's omniscience and plan predetermine all events, including human actions.
Hard determinism is a philosophical position that asserts that free will is an illusion and that all events, including human actions and choices, are entirely determined by antecedent causes. In other words, under hard determinism, there is no room for genuine human agency or the ability to make choices that are independent of prior causes and conditions.
According to hard determinism, the state of the universe at any given moment, along with the laws of nature, logically and inevitably lead to specific outcomes in the future. This perspective denies the existence of any true alternatives and suggests that every action or decision made by an individual is the inevitable result of the sum total of their genetic makeup, past experiences, and external influences.
The proponents of hard determinism often draw on ideas from causal determinism, which posits that the world operates according to a chain of cause-and-effect relationships. They argue that even our thoughts and feelings are predetermined by physical processes in the brain and the external environment, leaving no room for genuine free will.
As a consequence of hard determinism, notions of moral responsibility and accountability become problematic. If individuals are not ultimately in control of their actions and choices, the traditional concepts of blame, punishment, and reward lose their grounding in the context of personal responsibility.
Critics of hard determinism argue that it negates the intuitive sense of agency and choice that humans experience in their everyday lives. They contend that certain complexities, such as the unpredictability of human behavior and the presence of genuine uncertainty in some systems (e.g., quantum mechanics), challenge the notion of a purely deterministic universe.
Overall, the debate between hard determinism and other philosophical perspectives on free will remains an ongoing and profound topic in philosophy and cognitive sciences, touching on fundamental questions about the nature of human existence and the limits of human autonomy.
calvinism is determinism which is fatalism.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Websters affirms this below, the calvinist affirms this with their proof texts here: Prov 16:4 ,1 Peter 2:8 and the WCF also affirms this in the confession. Romans 9 and double predestination also affirms its fatalism by the definition. As we see it makes God unjust.
fatalism noun
fa·tal·ism | \ ˈfā-tə-ˌli-zəm \
Definition of fatalism : a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine
from Stanford encyclopedia
Though the word “fatalism” is commonly used to refer to an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable, philosophers usually use the word to refer to the view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. This view may be argued for in various ways: by appeal to logical laws and metaphysical necessities; by appeal to the existence and nature of God; by appeal to causal determinism. When argued for in the first way, it is commonly called “Logical fatalism” (or, in some cases, “Metaphysical fatalism”); when argued for in the second way, it is commonly called “Theological fatalism”.
from wiki
The term "fatalism" can refer to any of the following ideas:
conclusion: determinism is fatalism/ defeatism/calvinism
This is fatalism. @Presby02
1646 WCF, 3.1
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own
will freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as
thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of
the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken
away, but rather established.
1689 LBCF, 3.1
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy
counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever
comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath
fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the
creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken
away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all
things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
The Calvinists theological dilemma with cause/effect of their fatalistic theistic determinism
1- events/people are determined, predestined, fixed- cause
2- so humans are powerless to change them- effect
hope this helps !!!
fatalism noun
fa·tal·ism | \ ˈfā-tə-ˌli-zəm \
Definition of fatalism : a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine
from Stanford encyclopedia
Though the word “fatalism” is commonly used to refer to an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable, philosophers usually use the word to refer to the view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. This view may be argued for in various ways: by appeal to logical laws and metaphysical necessities; by appeal to the existence and nature of God; by appeal to causal determinism. When argued for in the first way, it is commonly called “Logical fatalism” (or, in some cases, “Metaphysical fatalism”); when argued for in the second way, it is commonly called “Theological fatalism”.
from wiki
The term "fatalism" can refer to any of the following ideas:
- Any view according to which human beingsare powerless to do anything other than what they actually do.[1] Included in this is the belief that humans have no power to influence the future or indeed the outcome of their own actions.[2][3][clarification needed]
- The belief that events are decided by fate and are outside human control
- One such view is theological fatalism, according to which free will is incompatible with the existence of an omniscient God who has foreknowledge of all future events.[4] This is very similar to theological determinism.[a]
- A second such view is logical fatalism, according to which propositions about the future which we take to currently be either true or false can only be true or false if future events are already determined.[1]
- The view that the appropriate reaction to the inevitability of some future event is acceptance or resignation, rather than resistance.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism#cite_note-8 This view is closer to everyday use of the word "fatalism", and is similar to defeatism.
conclusion: determinism is fatalism/ defeatism/calvinism
This is fatalism. @Presby02
1646 WCF, 3.1
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own
will freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as
thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of
the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken
away, but rather established.
1689 LBCF, 3.1
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy
counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever
comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath
fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the
creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken
away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all
things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
The Calvinists theological dilemma with cause/effect of their fatalistic theistic determinism
1- events/people are determined, predestined, fixed- cause
2- so humans are powerless to change them- effect
hope this helps !!!
Let me know when you are able to address the scriptures
God knows by observation
Hebrews 4:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
knows based upon what he does
Isaiah 46:10–11 (KJV 1900) — 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times the things that are not yet done, Saying, My counsel shall stand, And I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, The man that executeth my counsel from a far country: Yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
God know through searching man
Psalm 139:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, Thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, And art acquainted with all my ways.
God knows by testing man
Deuteronomy 8:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
Yup. He desires the salvation of all, according to you the Pelagians, yet God chooses not to save all.
You are still stuck in denial
You are stuck in fatalism and denial
https://berean-apologetics.communit...res-man-to-humble-themselves.1714/post-103786
The definitions given show you are without a leg to stand on.
Let me know when you will address, He works ALL THINGS according to the council of His will. Or the fact God knows the end from the beginning.
So until He tested He had no idea. OPEN THEISM.
God know because He searched. He had no idea before that.
OPEN THEISM
Did God love you at the cross time? Did He know your name?
