God requires man to HUMBLE THEMSELVES

[TibiasDad]

It seems to me God would simultaneously have to know and not know the future before the decree to create were God actually timeless unless God's decree were eternally simultaneous with himself which is problematic

Yes, there are a lot of logical difficulties, but none of them can be overcome by our mental capacities. To posit that we can determine such things is to create a lesser God, a God that fits within our own capacities. There is no need for faith where there is no lack of knowledge.


Doug

 

[TomL]

Yes, there are a lot of logical difficulties, but none of them can be overcome by our mental capacities. To posit that we can determine such things is to create a lesser God, a God that fits within our own capacities. There is no need for faith where there is no lack of knowledge.


Doug

It's not that I necessarily disagree with you, but that difference of opinion in these matters do not constitute heresy.

Thus, the temporal and the atemporal view in my mind are options within the limits of orthodoxy.

 

[Studyman]

Total ABILITY​

​

James 4:10​

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

1 Peter 5:6​

Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,

James 4:6​

But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

2 Chronicles 7:14​

If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

2 Chronicles 12:12
Because Rehoboam humbled himself, the LORD’s anger turned from him, and he was not totally destroyed. Indeed, there was some good in Judah.

Daniel 10:12​

Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words.

1 Kings 21:29​

“Have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring the disaster in his days; but in his son's days I will bring the disaster upon his house.”

2 Kings 22:19
Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people—that they would become a curse and be laid waste—and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I also have heard you, declares the LORD.

1 Peter 5:5​

Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

Zephaniah 2:3​

Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the Lord.

Micah 6:8​

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Psalm 25:9​

He leads the humble in what is right, and teaches the humble his way.

Proverbs 11:2​

When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.

Proverbs 3:34​

Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor.

Matthew 23:12​

Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

How many times must God say something before the calvinist will believe Gods word and commands ?

If a dozen times is not enough let me know and I will provide several more dozens of passages declaring the exact same thing as those above. @Presby02 @The Rogue Tomato @Kermos @atpollard @brightfame52

hope this helps !!!

What is the difference if a member of the religious sect of the Pharisee or a member of the religious sect of the Sadducee transgresses God's commandments by their own religious traditions? Are we not all instructed by God to "Humble ourselves to HIM"? In like manner, what is the difference if a member of the religious sect of the Armenians or a member of the religious sect of the Calvinists transgresses God's commandments by their own religious traditions? Or any of this world's religious sects or businesses that teach for doctrines the commandments of men?

Did Jesus address this very thing?

Luke 13: 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Wouldn't He say the same thing about your rebuke of the religious sect of the Calvinist?

1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Calvinist, who teach salvation by an invisible Holy Lottery.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Calvinists were sinners above all Mainstream Christianity, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I won't be judged by the religious philosophy of the Calvinist, or Baptist, or Armenian or any of this world's religious sects. According to the Spirit of God, I will be judged by "my" works. If men repent and adopt the "good works" Jesus walked in, "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness", in other words, if I "Humble myself, or as Paul teaches, "Yield myself" a servant to obey God, like Jesus did, I have faith in God. But if I "Humble myself" to and adopt the religious philosophies of one or more of the many religious sects and businesses of this world I was born into, then my faith is in them for salvation, no different than the religious sect of the Pharisees who rejected God's Judgments " that ye may keep your own tradition."

A man should seek God's Righteousness, not justification of their own, in my view.

 

[Studyman]

Wrong. There is no before or after for a being who exists outside of time.

Was free to do as He wishes. Nothing bonds God to anything. The plan to create was part of His plan eternally. Hence He is omniscient. He had the ability and the power to choose otherwise but wouldn't have.

I don't have a dog in this fight but have studied a great deal about time which I believe God created for our human minds to make some sense of our existence. We have the "Now" that we exist in. There is a "past" that we cannot enter, and there is a "future" that we cannot enter. We only exist and can "do" in the "now". "Today" (NOW) if you hear God's Word, do not harden your hearts"

It is physically impossible to hear God's word last week, and "do" anything. And it is also impossible to hear God's Word next week, and "do" anything.

The "ONLY" "time" we have been empowered by God to do ANYTHING, is "NOW". And in God's Mercy and long suffering we have many "Nows" every day. Every "now", a new beginning. Every "now" a chance to repent, a chance to change, another chance to "harden not our hearts", a chance to "humble ourselves" to God.

There is no sense of time in sleep, and the dead have no more "Nows" in which to repent. Only the living has "Nows".

Psalms 9: 9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Psalms 6: 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ecc. 9: 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Is. 38: 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, "as I do this day": the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Mark 12: 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

This is why, in my understanding, Jesus said;

Matt. 6: 33 But seek ye first (TODAY, "NOW") the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?)

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day (NOW) is the evil thereof.

 

[TomL]

What is the difference if a member of the religious sect of the Pharisee or a member of the religious sect of the Sadducee transgresses God's commandments by their own religious traditions? Are we not all instructed by God to "Humble ourselves to HIM"? In like manner, what is the difference if a member of the religious sect of the Armenians or a member of the religious sect of the Calvinists transgresses God's commandments by their own religious traditions? Or any of this world's religious sects or businesses that teach for doctrines the commandments of men?

Did Jesus address this very thing?

Luke 13: 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Wouldn't He say the same thing about your rebuke of the religious sect of the Calvinist?

1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Calvinist, who teach salvation by an invisible Holy Lottery.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Calvinists were sinners above all Mainstream Christianity, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I won't be judged by the religious philosophy of the Calvinist, or Baptist, or Armenian or any of this world's religious sects. According to the Spirit of God, I will be judged by "my" works. If men repent and adopt the "good works" Jesus walked in, "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness", in other words, if I "Humble myself, or as Paul teaches, "Yield myself" a servant to obey God, like Jesus did, I have faith in God. But if I "Humble myself" to and adopt the religious philosophies of one or more of the many religious sects and businesses of this world I was born into, then my faith is in them for salvation, no different than the religious sect of the Pharisees who rejected God's Judgments " that ye may keep your own tradition."

A man should seek God's Righteousness, not justification of their own, in my view.

Calvinists do not believe you can humble yourself

 

[TomL]

Wrong. There is no before or after for a being who exists outside of time.

Was free to do as He wishes. Nothing bonds God to anything. The plan to create was part of His plan eternally. Hence He is omniscient. He had the ability and the power to choose otherwise but wouldn't have.

Then you are back to God's decree and creation being as eternal as is he

 

[Studyman]

Calvinists do not believe you can humble yourself

But in order for a man to be a "Calvinist", he must first "humble himself" to the teaching of Calvinism, Yes? As a Pharisee would have to "humble himself" to the teaching of Gamaliel. As the Baptist must humble himself to the teaching of Wesley, as the Catholic must humble himself to the teaching of the Pope, and SDA to the philosophies of Ellen White, and the JW's to Russell, and on and on.

My point is there isn't any difference between the Calvinist and the Baptist or Armenian, because both transgress God's Commandments by their own religious traditions. While the Church of God both before the death and resurrection of Christ, and after the death and resurrection of Christ did not "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition".

Both Calvinists and Armenian "SAY", but "Do not" when it comes to obedience to God. So with impartial judgment, how is one different than the other?

 

[TibiasDad]

As the Baptist must humble himself to the teaching of Wesley,

The Baptist is not Wesleyan; but even we Wesleyans do not humble ourselves to Wesley, or his teaching per se. We submit ourselves to God and his Word and word! We simply more or less believe that scripture expresses what Wesley believed it expresses.

Doug

 

[TomL]

But in order for a man to be a "Calvinist", he must first "humble himself" to the teaching of Calvinism, Yes? As a Pharisee would have to "humble himself" to the teaching of Gamaliel. As the Baptist must humble himself to the teaching of Wesley, as the Catholic must humble himself to the teaching of the Pope, and SDA to the philosophies of Ellen White, and the JW's to Russell, and on and on.

My point is there isn't any difference between the Calvinist and the Baptist or Armenian, because both transgress God's Commandments by their own religious traditions. While the Church of God both before the death and resurrection of Christ, and after the death and resurrection of Christ did not "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition".

Both Calvinists and Armenian "SAY", but "Do not" when it comes to obedience to God. So with impartial judgment, how is one different than the other?

No God has to do that in the Calvinist view.

The Baptist may or may not agree with the Calvinist depending on the type of baptist

 

[civic]

No God has to do that in the Calvinist view.

The Baptist may or may not agree with the Calvinist depending on the type of baptist

Correct

 

[TomL]

Correct

yes

 

[Studyman]

No God has to do that in the Calvinist view.

No!! LOL, that is the view of John Calvin. So Calvinists are men who have humbled themselves to the philosophy of John Calvin, who teaches that God does that. Remember, men are servants to whom they "yield themselves" servants to obey. God doesn't make a man adopt Calvin's religious philosophy. Men choose to believe whomever they believe.

The Baptist may or may not agree with the Calvinist depending on the type of baptist

Yes, the religious franchise called the "Baptist religion" is made up of many different factions. So I agree, whether a person adopts the religious philosophy of Calvin, or Wesley or another man's religious views, depends on the particular sect of the Baptist religion one adopts.

And there are "many" who come in Christ's Name, to choose from.

• American Baptist
• Confessional Baptist
• Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
• Venture Church Network
• Converge (formerly Baptist General Conference)
• Free Will Baptist
• Full Gospel Baptist
• Fundamental Baptist
• General Six-Principle Baptists
• Independent Baptist
• Institutional Missionary Baptist
• Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist
• Landmark Baptists
• Liberty Baptist
• National Baptist
• North American Baptist
• Old Regular Baptist
• Old Time Missionary Baptist
• Original Free Will Baptist
• Primitive Baptist Universalists
• Primitive Baptists
• Progressive National Baptist
• Reformed Baptist
• Regular Baptist
• Separate Baptist
• Seventh Day Baptist
• Southern Baptist
• Southwide Baptist
• Sovereign Grace Baptists
• Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
• United Baptist
• World Baptist

Religion is big money, and the religious franchise called the "Baptist religion" has cornered a great deal of the religious market in America. They have dozens of other sects and factions in other countries as well.

A lot of men have "yielded themselves" servants to obey the many differing religious philosophies promoted by this world's religious business.

And they argue and compete with each other for contributing members, without which their religious business could not exist.

Personally, I believe the warnings of the Christ concerning the men who frequent the manmade shrines of worship built by these businesses as described in Matt. 6. I don't believe God's Church engages in such a religious business. However, I understand the tradition of these religious businesses and sects have been practiced by this world's religious men since the Pharisees religion, who also turned God's Word into a religious business. So I'm bucking long held, deeply imprinted traditions of men.

Nevertheless, Jesus did say not to be like unto them, and to "come out her" which I believe to be these worldly religions. My perspective is of a man who has done just that.

 

[Studyman]

The Baptist is not Wesleyan; but even we Wesleyans do not humble ourselves to Wesley, or his teaching per se. We submit ourselves to God and his Word and word! We simply more or less believe that scripture expresses what Wesley believed it expresses.

Doug

LOL, and yet you call yourself "Wesleyan".

 

[TibiasDad]

LOL, and yet you call yourself "Wesleyan".

1) I call myself a Christian, a disciple of Christ, a believer in the triune God. I would more likely call myself a Nazarene, rather than a Wesleyan Arminian, but I would not be offended if that were attributed to me as a way of theological thinking. The Church of the Nazarene is a direct descendant of Methodism, and therefore Wesleyan influence.

2) My thinking is generally aligned with the principles of Wesleyan thought, especially in relation to God’s work within the believer after conversion, not by a demand or need to glorify Wesley himself but because, like all of us, I wrestled with all the various theological opinions out there and seek to understand the scriptures themselves, and tend to agree with Wesley about the meaning and message of scripture.

This forum is, in part, (at least for me) the opportunity to test my own thinking by letting others attempt to explain a) why my thinking is flawed/wrong, and b) why theirs is better/right.

All of us are, in one way or another, influenced by other people’s ideas and beliefs to one extent or another. But it is ultimately my own conclusions about the scriptures that are expressed, not Wesley’s or Arminius or Calvin’s.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

LOL, and yet you call yourself "Wesleyan".

PS: Baptists are not Wesleyan in their theology. They tend toward Calvinism much more than Wesley; especially regarding eternal security- something quite opposite of Wesleyan thought.

Just thought I’d note that you completely ignored this little fact about your inaccurate statement about Baptists.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

And there are "many" who come in Christ's Name, to choose from.

• American Baptist
• Confessional Baptist
• Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
• Venture Church Network
• Converge (formerly Baptist General Conference)
• Free Will Baptist
• Full Gospel Baptist
• Fundamental Baptist
• General Six-Principle Baptists
• Independent Baptist
• Institutional Missionary Baptist
• Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist
• Landmark Baptists
• Liberty Baptist
• National Baptist
• North American Baptist
• Old Regular Baptist
• Old Time Missionary Baptist
• Original Free Will Baptist
• Primitive Baptist Universalists
• Primitive Baptists
• Progressive National Baptist
• Reformed Baptist
• Regular Baptist
• Separate Baptist
• Seventh Day Baptist
• Southern Baptist
• Southwide Baptist
• Sovereign Grace Baptists
• Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
• United Baptist
• World Baptist

Hmmm…I don’t see Wesleyan Baptist in that list. Like Unicorns and leprechauns they don’t exist! If you disagree I will agree with you if you show me an atheistic theist, because that is as illogical as a Wesleyan Baptist.


Doug

 

[civic]

No!! LOL, that is the view of John Calvin. So Calvinists are men who have humbled themselves to the philosophy of John Calvin, who teaches that God does that. Remember, men are servants to whom they "yield themselves" servants to obey. God doesn't make a man adopt Calvin's religious philosophy. Men choose to believe whomever they believe.



Yes, the religious franchise called the "Baptist religion" is made up of many different factions. So I agree, whether a person adopts the religious philosophy of Calvin, or Wesley or another man's religious views, depends on the particular sect of the Baptist religion one adopts.

And there are "many" who come in Christ's Name, to choose from.

• American Baptist
• Confessional Baptist
• Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
• Venture Church Network
• Converge (formerly Baptist General Conference)
• Free Will Baptist
• Full Gospel Baptist
• Fundamental Baptist
• General Six-Principle Baptists
• Independent Baptist
• Institutional Missionary Baptist
• Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist
• Landmark Baptists
• Liberty Baptist
• National Baptist
• North American Baptist
• Old Regular Baptist
• Old Time Missionary Baptist
• Original Free Will Baptist
• Primitive Baptist Universalists
• Primitive Baptists
• Progressive National Baptist
• Reformed Baptist
• Regular Baptist
• Separate Baptist
• Seventh Day Baptist
• Southern Baptist
• Southwide Baptist
• Sovereign Grace Baptists
• Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
• United Baptist
• World Baptist

Religion is big money, and the religious franchise called the "Baptist religion" has cornered a great deal of the religious market in America. They have dozens of other sects and factions in other countries as well.

A lot of men have "yielded themselves" servants to obey the many differing religious philosophies promoted by this world's religious business.

And they argue and compete with each other for contributing members, without which their religious business could not exist.

Personally, I believe the warnings of the Christ concerning the men who frequent the manmade shrines of worship built by these businesses as described in Matt. 6. I don't believe God's Church engages in such a religious business. However, I understand the tradition of these religious businesses and sects have been practiced by this world's religious men since the Pharisees religion, who also turned God's Word into a religious business. So I'm bucking long held, deeply imprinted traditions of men.

Nevertheless, Jesus did say not to be like unto them, and to "come out her" which I believe to be these worldly religions. My perspective is of a man who has done just that.

So you don’t go to church and fellowship with believers correct?

 

[TomL]

No!! LOL, that is the view of John Calvin. So Calvinists are men who have humbled themselves to the philosophy of John Calvin, who teaches that God does that. Remember, men are servants to whom they "yield themselves" servants to obey. God doesn't make a man adopt Calvin's religious philosophy. Men choose to believe whomever they believe.



Yes, the religious franchise called the "Baptist religion" is made up of many different factions. So I agree, whether a person adopts the religious philosophy of Calvin, or Wesley or another man's religious views, depends on the particular sect of the Baptist religion one adopts.

And there are "many" who come in Christ's Name, to choose from.

• American Baptist
• Confessional Baptist
• Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
• Venture Church Network
• Converge (formerly Baptist General Conference)
• Free Will Baptist
• Full Gospel Baptist
• Fundamental Baptist
• General Six-Principle Baptists
• Independent Baptist
• Institutional Missionary Baptist
• Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist
• Landmark Baptists
• Liberty Baptist
• National Baptist
• North American Baptist
• Old Regular Baptist
• Old Time Missionary Baptist
• Original Free Will Baptist
• Primitive Baptist Universalists
• Primitive Baptists
• Progressive National Baptist
• Reformed Baptist
• Regular Baptist
• Separate Baptist
• Seventh Day Baptist
• Southern Baptist
• Southwide Baptist
• Sovereign Grace Baptists
• Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
• United Baptist
• World Baptist

Religion is big money, and the religious franchise called the "Baptist religion" has cornered a great deal of the religious market in America. They have dozens of other sects and factions in other countries as well.

A lot of men have "yielded themselves" servants to obey the many differing religious philosophies promoted by this world's religious business.

And they argue and compete with each other for contributing members, without which their religious business could not exist.

Personally, I believe the warnings of the Christ concerning the men who frequent the manmade shrines of worship built by these businesses as described in Matt. 6. I don't believe God's Church engages in such a religious business. However, I understand the tradition of these religious businesses and sects have been practiced by this world's religious men since the Pharisees religion, who also turned God's Word into a religious business. So I'm bucking long held, deeply imprinted traditions of men.

Nevertheless, Jesus did say not to be like unto them, and to "come out her" which I believe to be these worldly religions. My perspective is of a man who has done just that.

A lot of baptists

The southern baptist convention is the largest. The majority of which are not Calvinist but provisionist

 

[Studyman]

1) I call myself a Christian, a disciple of Christ, a believer in the triune God. I would more likely call myself a Nazarene, rather than a Wesleyan Arminian, but I would not be offended if that were attributed to me as a way of theological thinking. The Church of the Nazarene is a direct descendant of Methodism, and therefore Wesleyan influence.

I was addressing your words "but even we Wesleyans do not humble ourselves to Wesley,". Jw's, Mormons, Catholics and Calvinists etc., all call themselves "Christians". I'm not sure what a man calls himself, or even who he calls Lord, Lord, means much. We are all born into religions. Even Abraham was born into a religion. Jesus also, was born into a religion. Caleb, David, Rehab etc., all were born into a religion. This is simply true.

2) My thinking is generally aligned with the principles of Wesleyan thought, especially in relation to God’s work within the believer after conversion, not by a demand or need to glorify Wesley himself but because, like all of us, I wrestled with all the various theological opinions out there and seek to understand the scriptures themselves, and tend to agree with Wesley about the meaning and message of scripture.

I too, have wrestled with all this world's religions, and the philosophies and traditions they promote. And understand how popular and deeply held the religious traditions of this world are. Basically, if a man wants to be a "Christian", he must pick between the "many" religious sects and businesses of this world we were born into and then adopt their philosophies, financially support their business, and convert others to their particular religious sect. And all these different religions compete with each other for butts to fill the seats of the manmade shrines of worship each one builds to be seen of men.

It was the same for Peter and other Jews, and the Disciples in Jesus Time. If you wanted atonement, you must adopt the religious doctrines and traditions of the religious sects who "professed to know God".

I have found that God is perfectly capable of revealing Himself to men through the Holy Scriptures themselves. Seeing the Scriptures through the prism of Calvins opinions, or Wesley's opinions, or Russell's opinions, or the Pope's opinions causes nothing by division and confusion. As is perfectly demonstrated by the hundreds of different religious sects and businesses all competing for members.

This forum is, in part, (at least for me) the opportunity to test my own thinking by letting others attempt to explain a) why my thinking is flawed/wrong, and b) why theirs is better/right.

I know, the Calvinist against the Armenians, the Catholic against the Baptist, the Wesleyans against the JW's and on and on and on. "Which one is right, and which one is wrong"!!! All of them spending all their time "justifying" the religious doctrines, philosophies and traditions they adopted.

All of them on this forum to defend and promote the philosophies of the particular religious sect or business they chose to adopt.

My brother, this is Babylon. It is not the Body of Christ, at least, not the Christ "of the Bible".

What I advocate is study of what is actually written apart from the influence of this world's religions and their traditions that we were born into. This means to study the scriptures with an open mind, not for the purpose of justifying a particular religion which is the tradition influencing "many" now.

All of us are, in one way or another, influenced by other people’s ideas and beliefs to one extent or another. But it is ultimately my own conclusions about the scriptures that are expressed, not Wesley’s or Arminius or Calvin’s.

Doug

It is true we are all born into this world and are affected by the Flood of religious influence which surrounds us, the same as men born in Jesus Time, the same as Abraham.

But I have had, or tried to have discussions with you about what Scriptures actually say, and you do not cling to what they actually say, you cling to your religious tradition and the opinions of men like Wesley’s or Arminius or Calvin. As I did in times past, as all have done because we are all born into the religions of this world and we all must "Come out of them" to know God. There is an Exodus (Repentance) required in every child of Abraham's life, just as there was for Abraham.

The Methodist religion is different today than in was in 1784 when it was founded, or 1960 as I grew up in this religion. My mom wasn't allowed by church tradition to dance, play cards, wear pretty dresses, wear jewelry, and other "touch not, taste not, handle not" after the religious traditions of men. Over time it had to change in order to keep its membership up and compete with other religious businesses for contributing members to assure the survival of the business.

And it will continue to change, as all other religious businesses and sects of this world change, for the same purpose.

While the Church of God, the Body of Christ never changes. It is the same today with the same rules and statutes as it was in Christ's Time and in Paul's Time. An unbiased examination of Scripture reveals this truth.

What I advocate for is obeying the Christ "of the Bible", As it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God," regardless of the religious opinions of Wesley or Arminius or Calvin or Russell or Smith or White or anyone else who "Transforms themselves into apostles of Christ.

Therefore;

2 Pet. 3: 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Studyman]

PS: Baptists are not Wesleyan in their theology. They tend toward Calvinism much more than Wesley; especially regarding eternal security- something quite opposite of Wesleyan thought.

Just thought I’d note that you completely ignored this little fact about your inaccurate statement about Baptists.


Doug

I stand corrected.