God Has Made No Covenant With Gentiles

[GeneZ]

Abram was Hebrew from the family line of Eber of whom Hebrews derive.

Abram's family were idol worshipers. (I even learned this in Hebrew school as a Jewish boy)
So, it looks like you are now convoluting being Hebrew with also being gentile.

"Hebrew "simply meant the one who crosses the river.

Just found this online. Here is a helpful read :
https://www.ministrybooks.org/display/index.php?ent=TSB&id=659

grace and peace .....

 

[DavidTree]

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:1–7.

The Abrahamic Covenant. A covenant in which a man and his wife were given outstanding promises for not only him and his immediate children but for their descendants also. A covenant in which a Redeemer and King would be born to remove the sins of God's covenant people and give them eternal life. And from this day forward God has been working to that end using only this covenant and no other for there is no other Name by which anyone will be saved but the Name of God: Yahweh (YHWH.) It is only through this covenant will God save His Chosen people Israel. But God has made no covenant with Gentiles. But Gentiles are not excluded for there are many prophecies through the decades sent to Israel from God's prophets that Gentiles will be included, and we later find from the writings of Paul, grafted in along with the natural branches of the Olive Tree, which is Israel, that Israel will be the light to lead the Gentiles to Jerusalem to worship God alongside them.

The Church, or Great Congregation of the LORD is Israel. The Bride of Christ is Israel for God says in the Old Testament that He is betrothed to Israel forever. But God has made no covenant with Gentiles.
When all is said and done, and Israel's Messiah and King sits on the throne of David to rule His people from Jerusalem there will be a Marriage Supper of the Lamb and His Bride. Israel is there by covenant, but Gentiles will be there by invitation.
God has made no covenant with Gentiles.
But you Gentiles have receive an invitation to partake of the blessings God has bestowed upon Abram, Isaac, and Jacob, and the twelve tribes of Israel and their descendants.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 1
2 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:11–29.

All well and good but God has made no covenant with Gentiles.

When God made a covenant with Abraham it included ALL of the SEED that would Believe unto Righteousness = apart from the law.


Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Abram was destined to become a blessing to men of every nation.

The nations and kings that "come out of thee" (Abraham) are not Gentiles for no Gentiles come from the loins of Abraham, are the descendants of Ishmael and Esau. This people would come to be known as Arab and the Arab believes God's promises/covenant went through Ishmael, not Isaac. All the Middle East wars boil down to this family squabble thanks to Abraham and his trying to help God keep His promises about a seed that would come from his loins: Isaac. You know the story of Abraham and Hagar and Ishmael. The nations and kings that did come from "out of thee" (Abraham) were the descendants of Ishamel and Esau. God made no covenant with Gentiles and there is NO COVENANT in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets of God making any covenant with Gentiles. Before it was an issue between Jew and Arab. Now Gentiles want to claim a birthright they never had and try to use Scripture to claim covenant with God. But there is no covenant God ever made with Gentiles in the Holy Scripture.

Blessing would come through Abraham in several ways. Those who recognized the hand of God in Abram and his descendants would be blessed by contact with them. Pharaoh, for example, was blessed by exalting Joseph. Men of all nations would be blessed by the Scriptures which, to a great extent, came through the instrumentality of the Jewish people. Ultimately, the whole world was blessed by the coming of the Messiah, who came to save men of every nation, not just the Jews:

The Abrahamic Covenant and the blessings all go through Isaac and Jacob and Jacob's eventual twelve sons and their children. The covenant went to the families that "come out of thee" (Abraham.) God is saving Gentiles without a covenant.

Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith that are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, ‘All the nations shall be blessed in you.’ So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer (Galatians 3:7-9)

Saul writes to Jewish Christians in the Galatian region. He is not writing to uncircumcised Gentiles. He may refer to Gentile proselytes, but the New Covenant Scriptures of Saul, Peter, James, John, Matthew, etc., are written to Jewish Christians and Jews in general so that they may come to accept Jesus bar Joseph as their long-awaited promised Messiah. In Galatians 3 specifically, Saul is writing to Jewish Christians who were concerned whether receiving Messiah allowed them to keep their Abrahamic Covenant, and Saul says, "Yes, it does."

Preached the gospel beforehand (proeuēggelisato). First aorist middle indicative of proeuaggelizomai with augment on a though both pro and eu before it in composition. Only instance in N.T. It occurs in Philo. and Schol. Soph.

This Scripture announced beforehand the gospel on this point of justification by faith. He quotes the promise to Abraham in Gen_12:3; Gen_18:18, putting panta ta ethnē (all the nations) in Gen_18:18 for pāsai hai phulai (all the tribes) of the earth. It is a crucial passage for Paul’s point, showing that the promise to Abraham included all the nations of the earth. The verb eneulogeō (future passive here) occurs in the lxx and here only in N.T. (not Act_3:25 in correct text).
In thee (en soi). “As their spiritual progenitor” (Lightfoot).

Again, the Covenant went through Isaac and then Jacob and then to Jacob's children. Ishmael and Esau received blessings from God as Scripture says, but the promises/covenant went through Isaac and Jacob. There are no Gentiles in covenant with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. None. God is saving Gentiles without covenant.

The whole issue is you want to identify "nations" and "kings" and "strangers" and "foreigners" as Gentiles. I don't. Gentiles do not "come from out of thee" (Abraham.) The family line God has blessed through promises and covenants with regard to His Only Begotten Son goes through Shem and Noah and Eber, who is the father of the Hebrews. It was Hebrews that went down to Egypt and eventually to become slaves to the Egyptians, and it was the children of Israel that God delivered with a mighty arm from their bondage. It was the children of Israel at the foot of Mount Sinai.

You can end this discussion by showing me Gentiles identified in the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants, or any covenant in the Law, Psalms, or Prophets of God making covenant with Gentiles.
But to date NO ONE has been able to show me in Scripture God making covenant with Gentiles in all this time of my thread. IF it was always part of God's program to include Gentiles in the Jewish Covenant or a Gentile covenant of their own the Scripture would be clear on this point. But Scripture is silent. It shouldn't all come down to "Well, I think 'nations' and 'kings' and 'strangers' and 'foreigners' means God is talking about Gentiles" then that is really shaky ground to base one's doctrine and belief. If Gentiles were to hold such an important part in the Jewish Covenants, or any covenant, God would say so in Scripture, but He doesn't. It all comes down to interpreting "nations" and "kings" and "strangers" and "foreigners" as to whether those terms mean Gentiles, and again, God has made no covenant with Gentiles in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Abram's family were idol worshipers. (I even learned this in Hebrew school as a Jewish boy)
So, it looks like you are now convoluting being Hebrew with also being gentile.

"Hebrew "simply meant the one who crosses the river.

Just found this online. Here is a helpful read :
https://www.ministrybooks.org/display/index.php?ent=TSB&id=659

grace and peace .....

And that was the name given to Eber who became the father of nomads also called "Hebrews." It was Hebrews that went into bondage in Egypt and Hebrews that God delivered out of Egypt. God didn't deliver Gentiles out of Egypt with a mighty arm. It was Hebrews. Follow the family lineage of Jesus in Matthew and Luke and see where the blessings were given, where the covenants were given, and where the covenants and blessings together were given. Make distinction. God does. God is very ethnic. God IS a respecter of persons. Just look at who He gives covenant to. Because in Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets I find no covenant God has given or made with Gentiles.
There is none.

 

[Johann]

You can end this discussion by showing me Gentiles identified in the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants, or any covenant in the Law, Psalms, or Prophets of God making covenant with Gentiles.

So I take it as a Gentile believer I am not saved?


3:6 "Even so Abraham" Verses 6-9 amplify the example of Abraham, the spiritual and racial father of the Jewish nation. The false teachers may have used Abraham as an example of someone who believed God and then later was circumcised. This explains why Paul's argument recorded in Romans 4 is not developed here. Abraham is paradigmatic of how all humans come to God (cf. LXX of Gen. 15:6). Salvation and right standing with God has always been by grace through faith. This was not a new message!

"Even so," Curtis Vaughan, A Study Guide Commentary, makes the comment that this makes the comment that this phrase implies that as Abraham was made right with God by grace through faith, so too, the Galatians (p. 61). The faith principle is expanded to all who have faith in Gal. 3:7,9; even to Gentiles, Gal. 3:8!

One's relationship to Abraham was not determined by (1) physical lineage (Israel) or (2) physical sign (circumcision, cf. Rom. 2:28-29), but by grace (cf. Gal. 3:18) through faith (cf. Eph. 2:8-9)!

"believed" See Special Topic: Believe, Trust, Faith and Faithfulness in the OT and Special Topic: Faith, Believe, or Trust

"it was reckoned to him as righteousness"
This is a quote from the Septuagint of Gen. 15:6. "Reckoned," an AORIST PASSIVE VERB, is a commercial term that meant "to make a deposit into another's account" (cf. Rom. 4:3,9,22). God's righteousness was given to Abraham because of God's love and Abraham's faith that God would give him an heir. The Gen. 15:6 quotation comes from the Septuagint. Paul quotes the Law of Moses several times (see Contextual Insights, C) to strengthen his argument. Since the false teachers used the Law to make their argument, Paul used the same technique to prove them wrong. The writings of Moses (Genesis – Deuteronomy) were the most authoritative section of the Hebrew canon for first century Judaism.

3:7 "be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham" This statement is the major thrust of this contextual unit. This declaration would have appalled the Jewish-oriented false teachers. This same truth (i.e., Jews were not right with God because of their ethnic origins) is alluded to in the message of John the Baptist (cf. Luke 3:8) and specifically in the words of Jesus in John 8:37-59. This theological truth is developed by Paul in Gal. 3:14,29 and Rom. 2:28-29. One can tell Abraham's sons by

who they trust and know (personal relationship with Jesus)
how they live (Christlikeness), not by who their parents (ancestors) are


3:8 "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith" This Hebraic idiom affirms the full inspiration of the OT. In this verse the Scripture is personified twice. See note at Gal. 4:30.

The salvation of all humans has always been God's plan (cf. Gen. 3:15; 12:3; Exod. 19:5-6). There is only one God and all humans are made in His image (Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1; 9:6), therefore, He loves everyone (cf. Ezekiel 18:32; John 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9). The universal love of God, which includes the Gentiles, is clearly seen in Isaiah (cf. Isa. 2:2-4; 45:21-25; 56:1-8; 60:1-3).

The mechanism of this universally available salvation is God's grace through

the work of Christ
the drawing of the Spirit
a human faith response (cf. Eph. 2:8-9)
which issues in Christlikeness (Gal. 3:10)

"preached the gospel beforehand"
This English phrase translates one work in Greek (proeuangelisato, AORIST MIDDLE [deponent] INDICATIVE).

pro – before
eu – good
angelia – message/news
euangelizomai – means to preach
all together it means "preach the good message beforehand"
It is found only here in the NT. It denotes that God's love for all humans was revealed to Abraham in his initial call (i.e., Gen. 12:3). The gospel (euangelion) has its roots in the writings of Moses.





"All the nations will be blessed in you"
Here Paul quotes God's promise to Abraham, recorded in Gen. 12:3; 18:18; 22:18; 26:4. The Hebrew VERB form may be

a passive form, "will be blessed" (cf. Gen. 18:18; 28:14)
a MIDDLE REFLEXIVE form, "will bless themselves" (cf. Gen. 22:16-18; 26:4)
However, in the Septuagint and in Paul's quote, it is PASSIVE, not MIDDLE. In this text Paul combined Gen. 12:3 with 18:18 from the Septuagint. The salvation of all humans made in God's image has always been God's plan!

Special Topic: YHWH's Eternal Redemptive Plan

3:9
NASB   "those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer"
NKJV   "those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham"
NRSV   "those who believe are blessed with Abraham who believed"
TEV   "Abraham believed and was blessed; so all who believe are blessed as he was"
NJB   "Those therefore who rely on faith receive the same blessing as Abraham, the man of faith"
Peshitta   "so then, it is the believers who are blessed through Abraham the faithful"

The PREPOSITION "sun," meaning "joint participation with," shows the close identification between Abraham and all those who have faith in God (cf. Gen. 15:6). The description of Abraham as "faithful" or "believing" emphasizes that Abraham believed God by trusting in His promise. NT faith also means trusting in the trustworthiness of God and His promises. However, remember that Abraham did not have perfect faith, he too, tried to help God fulfill His promise by having a natural child with Hagar (cf. Genesis 16). It is not mankind's perfect faith, but the object of their faith.

YHWH's ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN

I must admit to you the reader that I am biased at this point. My systematic theology is not Calvinism or Dispensationalism, but it is Great Commission evangelicalism (cf. Matt. 28:18-20; Luke 24:46-47; Acts 1:8).

I believe God had an eternal plan for the redemption of all mankind (e.g., Gen. 3:15; 12:3; Exod 19:5-6; Jer. 31:31-34; Ezekiel 18; 36:22-39; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 13:29; Rom. 3:9-18,19-20,21-31), all those created in His image and likeness (cf. Gen. 1:26-27). The covenants are united in Christ (cf. Gal. 3:28-29; Col. 3:11). Jesus is the mystery of God, hidden but now revealed (cf. Eph. 2:11-3:13)! The NT gospel, not Israel, is the key to Scripture.

This pre-understanding colors all my interpretations of Scripture. I read all texts through it! It is surely a bias (all interpreters have them!), but it is a scripturally-informed presupposition.

The focus of Genesis 1-2 is YHWH creating a place where He and His highest creation, mankind, can fellowship (cf. Gen. 1:26,27; 3:8). Physical creation is a stage for this interpersonal divine agenda.

1. St. Augustine characterized it as a divine-shaped hole in every person that can be filled only by God Himself.

2. C.S. Lewis called this planet "the touched planet," (i.e., prepared by God for humans).



The OT has many hints of this divine agenda.

1. Genesis 3:15 is the first promise that YHWH will not leave mankind in the terrible mess of sin and rebellion. It does not refer to Israel because there is no Israel, or covenant people, until the call of Abraham in Genesis 12.

2. Genesis 12:1-3 is YHWH's initial call and revelation to Abraham which will become the covenant people, Israel. But even in this initial call, God had an eye to the whole world. Notice Gen. 12:3!

3. In Exodus 20 (Deuteronomy 5) YHWH gave His law to Moses to guide His special people. Notice that in Exod. 19:5-6, YHWH reveals to Moses the unique relationship Israel will have. But also notice that they were chosen, like Abraham, to bless the world (cf. Exod. 19:5, "for all the earth is Mine"). Israel was to be a mechanism for the nations to know YHWH and be attracted to Him. Tragically they failed (cf. Ezek. 36:22-38).

4. In 1 Kings 8 Solomon dedicates the temple so all can come to YHWH (cf. 1 Kgs. 8:43,60).

5. In the Psalms – 22:27-28; 66:4; 86:9 (Rev. 15:4)

6. Through the prophets YHWH continued to reveal His universal redemptive plans.

a. Isaiah – 2:2-4; 12:4-5; 25:6-9; 42:6,10-12; 45:22; 49:5-6; 51:4-5; 56:6-8; 60:1-3; 66:18,23

b. Jeremiah – 3:17; 4:2; 16:19

c. Micah 4:1-3

d. Malachi 1:11

This universal emphasis is facilitated by the emergence of the "new covenant" (cf. Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 36:22-38), which focuses on the mercy of YHWH, not the performance of fallen humans. There is a "new heart," a "new mind," and a "new spirit." Obedience is crucial but it is internal, not an external code only (cf. Rom. 3:21-31).

The NT clearly reinforces the universal redemptive plan in several ways.

1. The Great Commission – Matt. 28:18-20; Luke 24:46-47; Acts 1:8

2. God's eternal plan (i.e., predestined) – Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 13:29

3. God wants all humans to be saved – John 3:16; 4:42; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Tim. 2:4-6; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14

4. Christ unites the OT and NT – Gal. 3:28-29; Eph. 2:11-3:13; Col. 3:11. All human barriers and distinctions are removed in Christ. Jesus is the "mystery of God," hidden but now revealed (Eph. 2:11-3:13).

The NT focuses on Jesus, not Israel.
The gospel, not a nationality or geographical region, is central. Israel was the first revelation but Jesus is the ultimate revelation (cf. Matt. 5:17-48).

So Messiah only died for YisraEl?

 

[jeremiah1five]

When God made a covenant with Abraham it included ALL of the SEED that would Believe unto Righteousness = apart from the law.


Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

If you take a closer look at the Abrahamic Covenant there is no requirement of faith in this covenant.
Now, show me in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets God making covenant with Gentiles or the seed of Gentiles. Because if the program of God's salvation was to include Gentiles in His Covenants God would make it known to not only Israel but to Gentiles. But God has made no covenant with Gentiles. God is saving Gentiles without a covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant is a covenant God was going to bring to pass independently of Abraham. It was God who passed through the animal pieces, not Abraham. Abraham was asleep.

 

[DavidTree]

If you take a closer look at the Abrahamic Covenant there is no requirement of faith in this covenant.
Now, show me in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets God making covenant with Gentiles or the seed of Gentiles. Because if the program of God's salvation was to include Gentiles in His Covenants God would make it known to not only Israel but to Gentiles. But God has made no covenant with Gentiles. God is saving Gentiles without a covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant is a covenant God was going to bring to pass independently of Abraham. It was God who passed through the animal pieces, not Abraham. Abraham was asleep.

@jeremiah1five says: "If you take a closer look at the Abrahamic Covenant there is no requirement of faith in this covenant."

Quite the CONTRARY my Brother.



By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


11By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she[d] bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18[f]of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” 19concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.


20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.


21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

Gospel =
By FAITH Abraham
By FAITH Isaac
By FAITH Jacob

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five says: "If you take a closer look at the Abrahamic Covenant there is no requirement of faith in this covenant."

Quite the CONTRARY my Brother.



By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


11By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she[d] bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18[f]of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” 19concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.


20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.


21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

Gospel =
By FAITH Abraham
By FAITH Isaac
By FAITH Jacob

I understand that. I said faith is not a requirement in the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 17.)

 

[DavidTree]

I understand that. I said faith is not a requirement in the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 17.)

Without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God

FAITH required to receive the covenant of Genesis ch17

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him,
“I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God

That's what Scripture says.

FAITH required to receive the covenant of Genesis ch17

Please, show me in Genesis 17 any mention of faith as part of this covenant.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him,
“I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.

OK. I read the same in my KJV. On the face of it how does this apply?

 

[DavidTree]

That's what Scripture says.

Please, show me in Genesis 17 any mention of faith as part of this covenant.

OK. I read the same in my KJV. On the face of it how does this apply?

Hello Jeremiah,

Know this, Christ is for us!

God declared that in order for Abraham to receive the Blessing of the Covenant he must "walk before God and be blameless".

2 Corinthians 5:7 - "For we walk by faith, not by sight."

No matter who the person is, no one can please God without Faith = thus we have Hebrews ch11 = the Hall of Faith
The Entire Scriptures are built upon the WORD that was God = the same WORD we must have faith in in order to be Saved.

Romans 1:17 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
Hebrews 10:35-39

Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37“For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not [m]tarry.
38Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Philemon 1: 4-7 "I thank my God, making mention of you always in my prayers, 5hearing of your love and faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints, 6that the sharing of your faith may become effective by the acknowledgment of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus. 7For we have great joy and consolation in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed by you, brother.



What other OT Patriarch obeyed the same commandment from God given to Abraham?
Hint = "Blameless"

 

[jeremiah1five]

Hello Jeremiah,
Know this, Christ is for us!
God declared that in order for Abraham to receive the Blessing of the Covenant he must "walk before God and be blameless".

I get that. But where in the Genesis 17 Abrahamic Covenant is there a requirement for Abraham to have faith? There is none.

2 Corinthians 5:7 - "For we walk by faith, not by sight."

Like Israel in the desert, we do both. They walked by sight and there was no problem with God with that. As a matter of fact, God is the One that led them by sight and not by faith.

No matter who the person is, no one can please God without Faith = thus we have Hebrews ch11 = the Hall of Faith
The Entire Scriptures are built upon the WORD that was God = the same WORD we must have faith in in order to be Saved.

Yes, yes, but show me in Genesis 17 Abrahamic Covenant where faith is a requirement.

Romans 1:17 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
Hebrews 10:35-39

Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37“For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not [m]tarry.
38Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Philemon 1: 4-7 "I thank my God, making mention of you always in my prayers, 5hearing of your love and faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints, 6that the sharing of your faith may become effective by the acknowledgment of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus. 7For we have great joy and consolation in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed by you, brother.

What other OT Patriarch obeyed the same commandment from God given to Abraham?
Hint = "Blameless"

I'm still waiting for you to show me in Genesis 17 Abraham as part of God's covenant is required to have faith.
Just say there is no requirement and we'll move on.

 

[DavidTree]

I get that. But where in the Genesis 17 Abrahamic Covenant is there a requirement for Abraham to have faith? There is none.

Like Israel in the desert, we do both. They walked by sight and there was no problem with God with that. As a matter of fact, God is the One that led them by sight and not by faith.

Yes, yes, but show me in Genesis 17 Abrahamic Covenant where faith is a requirement.

I'm still waiting for you to show me in Genesis 17 Abraham as part of God's covenant is required to have faith.
Just say there is no requirement and we'll move on.

It is all there for you = now you need faith to SEE what please God

 

[jeremiah1five]

It is all there for you = now you need faith to SEE what please God

There is no such thing as blind faith in Biblical Christianity. Faith rests on knowledge and knowledge of the Word of God.
Before I believe (have faith/trust) in something God expects me to receive knowledge of the thing and then trust it. Here's an example I use:

I walk into an empty room with a wooden chair at the center. If I blindly walk over to it and sit and it breaks apart from underneath me then I had a false faith (trust) in the chair to hold me up. This is blind faith, and it is dangerous to me. Another word for this is ignorance.
But Biblical faith that rests on knowledge is I walk into the same room with the same wooden chair at the center. I walk over to it, visually inspect it, put hands on it and push and leverage it this way and that way and when I am convinced (Greek: "pistis" = faith) it will hold me up I sit on it, and it holds me up and I can rest.

When I said God led Israel in the desert by sight and He was pleased is that it was the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night by which the children of Israel were led. They walked by sight (and faith.)
Every believer has a measure (portion) of faith (which is trust) and it rests on knowledge of the Word of God. Some have more faith based on the extent of their knowledge. Some have less faith. This means, the more of this doctrine of this "so-great salvation" (and all its parts) I KNOW the more faith I have in which I must trust. Less knowledge means less faith. Biblical example:

35 And the same day, when the even was come, he saith unto them, Let us pass over unto the other side.
36 And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.
37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Mk 4:35–40.

Simply, Jesus said "Let us pass unto the other side."

The disciples didn't trust (faith) in Jesus to get there.

 

[DavidTree]

There is no such thing as blind faith in Biblical Christianity. Faith rests on knowledge and knowledge of the Word of God.
Before I believe (have faith/trust) in something God expects me to receive knowledge of the thing and then trust it. Here's an example I use:

I walk into an empty room with a wooden chair at the center. If I blindly walk over to it and sit and it breaks apart from underneath me then I had a false faith (trust) in the chair to hold me up. This is blind faith, and it is dangerous to me. Another word for this is ignorance.
But Biblical faith that rests on knowledge is I walk into the same room with the same wooden chair at the center. I walk over to it, visually inspect it, put hands on it and push and leverage it this way and that way and when I am convinced (Greek: "pistis" = faith) it will hold me up I sit on it, and it holds me up and I can rest.

When I said God led Israel in the desert by sight and He was pleased is that it was the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night by which the children of Israel were led. They walked by sight (and faith.)
Every believer has a measure (portion) of faith (which is trust) and it rests on knowledge of the Word of God. Some have more faith based on the extent of their knowledge. Some have less faith. This means, the more of this doctrine of this "so-great salvation" (and all its parts) I KNOW the more faith I have in which I must trust. Less knowledge means less faith. Biblical example:

35 And the same day, when the even was come, he saith unto them, Let us pass over unto the other side.
36 And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.
37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Mk 4:35–40.

Simply, Jesus said "Let us pass unto the other side."

The disciples didn't trust (faith) in Jesus to get there.

@jeremiah1five says: "The disciples didn't trust (faith) in Jesus to get there."

Whose 'Faith' saved the disciples?
The disciples trusted JESUS who spoke by Faith to the raging storm = "Master carest thou not that we perish?"
And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

Salvation 101 = "Without faith it is impossible to please God" = "Born again by the Word of God which endures Forever"

When we HEAR God speaking to us and we respond in Faith, we SEE and please the Invisible God who SEES and HEARS

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five says: "The disciples didn't trust (faith) in Jesus to get there."

Whose 'Faith' saved the disciples?
The disciples trusted JESUS who spoke by Faith to the raging storm = "Master carest thou not that we perish?"
And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

It was Jesus' faith in God to get them there and He did. That's why He was soundly asleep in the back of the boat and treated the rocking boat like His own personal crib and the Father's hand rocking Him to sleep and keeping Him in that condition without a peep.
But the fact remains. Jesus said. "Let us pass unto the other side," and their lack of trusting His word to "pass unto the other side" was an opportunity to teach them something about trusting Jesus' words.
God means what He says and says what He means. This event happened corporately to what happened to Peter personally, that is, Peter saw the wind and waves and began to sink rather than keep his eyes on Jesus who gave him permission to walk on water. Well, Peter did walk on water. It's just that he didn't get to his destination and reach out his hand and have Jesus take it. Instead, Jesus reached out His hand and Peter had to remove his eyes from the waves to take Jesus' hand.

Salvation 101 = "Without faith it is impossible to please God" = "Born again by the Word of God which endures Forever"

When we HEAR God speaking to us and we respond in Faith, we SEE and please the Invisible God who SEES and HEARS

Just one more thing. Answer me...

Do you believe in order to understand, or do you understand in order to believe.

Let's see if you're honest with yourself.

 

[DavidTree]

It was Jesus' faith in God to get them there and He did. That's why He was soundly asleep in the back of the boat and treated the rocking boat like His own personal crib and the Father's hand rocking Him to sleep and keeping Him in that condition without a peep.
But the fact remains. Jesus said. "Let us pass unto the other side," and their lack of trusting His word to "pass unto the other side" was an opportunity to teach them something about trusting Jesus' words.
God means what He says and says what He means. This event happened corporately to what happened to Peter personally, that is, Peter saw the wind and waves and began to sink rather than keep his eyes on Jesus who gave him permission to walk on water. Well, Peter did walk on water. It's just that he didn't get to his destination and reach out his hand and have Jesus take it. Instead, Jesus reached out His hand and Peter had to remove his eyes from the waves to take Jesus' hand.

Just one more thing. Answer me...

Do you believe in order to understand, or do you understand in order to believe.

Let's see if you're honest with yourself.

CORRECT = @jeremiah1five says: "It was Jesus' faith in God to get them there and He did." = CORRECT

SEE, without faith it is impossible to please God = God is the FAITH that Saves us even when we lack faith.

i believe therefore i have faith and understanding = "and they shall all be taught by God" = John ch6

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

 

[Complete]

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.​

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.​

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,​

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.​

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.​

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.​

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:1–7.​

​

The Abrahamic Covenant. A covenant in which a man and his wife were given outstanding promises for not only him and his immediate children but for their descendants also. A covenant in which a Redeemer and King would be born to remove the sins of God's covenant people and give them eternal life. And from this day forward God has been working to that end using only this covenant and no other for there is no other Name by which anyone will be saved but the Name of God: Yahweh (YHWH.) It is only through this covenant will God save His Chosen people Israel. But God has made no covenant with Gentiles. But Gentiles are not excluded for there are many prophecies through the decades sent to Israel from God's prophets that Gentiles will be included, and we later find from the writings of Paul, grafted in along with the natural branches of the Olive Tree, which is Israel, that Israel will be the light to lead the Gentiles to Jerusalem to worship God alongside them.​

The Church, or Great Congregation of the LORD is Israel. The Bride of Christ is Israel for God says in the Old Testament that He is betrothed to Israel forever. But God has made no covenant with Gentiles.​

When all is said and done, and Israel's Messiah and King sits on the throne of David to rule His people from Jerusalem there will be a Marriage Supper of the Lamb and His Bride. Israel is there by covenant, but Gentiles will be there by invitation.​

God has made no covenant with Gentiles.​

But you Gentiles have received an invitation to partake of the blessings God has bestowed upon Abram, Isaac, and Jacob, and the twelve tribes of Israel and their descendants.​

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 1​

2 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?​

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:​

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.​

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?​

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.​

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;​

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.​

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.​

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear:​

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.​

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.​

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.​

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?​

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:​

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.​

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.​

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:11–29.​

All well and good but God has made no covenant with Gentiles.​

Subject Heading:- 'God Has Made No Covenant With Gentiles'

'Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
according to the faith of God's elect,
and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
In hope of eternal life,
which God, that cannot lie, promised
before the world began';
(Titus 1:1-2)

'Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus
before the world began,'
(2 Timothy 1:9)

'According as He hath chosen us in Him
before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame
before Him
in love:
(Ephesians 1:4)

Hello @jeremiah1five,

I agree that no covenant, or contractual arrangement, has been made by God with any other people. than His chosen nation, which is Israel.

In Titus 1:2 (above), we are told that eternal life was promised, 'before the world began'. 2 Timothy 1:9 says that the believer was called according to the Lord's own purpose and grace, 'which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began'. Ephesians 1:4 says that such were 'chosen in Him before the foundation of the world'. Here are covenants, agreements, promises, but they were not made with or to us, they were all made in and with Christ.

2 Corinthians 3 & 4 tell us that everything turns on two mediators, Moses and Christ. How thankful should we be to think that so far as the Church of the one Body is concerned there are no contractual agreements, no covenants, no testaments, that involve the believer, he finds all in his completeness in Christ.' All is IN HIM.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

I think you make some very good points but, technically, isn’t the Noahic covenant a covenant which God made with Gentiles?

'And God said unto Noah,
This is the token of the covenant,
which I have established
between Me and all flesh
that is upon the earth.'
(Gen 9:17)

Hi @Matthias,

That covenant was made with 'all flesh'. The word 'Gentile' was necessitated when the nation of Israel was formed: to distinguish the nations (Gentiles) from God's chosen nation.

'For from the top of the rocks I see him,
and from the hills I behold him:
lo, the people shall dwell alone,
and shall not be reckoned among the nations.'
(Num 23:9)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

It is right in plain sight in Genesis 17:5​

​

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for the father of a multitude of nations have I made thee.​

​

Not just the nation of Israel but numerous other nations/peoples. Both Jews and Gentiles.​

'Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.'
(Rom. 9:7)

'Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:'
(Heb,11:18)

Hi @civic,

Yes, Abraham was the father of many nations, as God said he would be: but it was Isaac through whom his seed would be called.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris