jeremiah1five
Well-known member
There must be something missing in today's pulpits and home bible studies and that is teaching Christians a well-rounded dose of systematic theology that covers a wide range of topics, such as Theology Proper (study of God), Christology (study of Christ), Pneumatology (study of the Holy Spirit), Bibliology (study of the bible), Anthropology (study of man), Soteriology (study of salvation), Ecclesiology (study of the Church), Eschatology (study of Last Things/End Times), and surrounding that the study of the Hebrew/Jewish people of which everything just mentioned revolves. Since faith rests on knowledge and knowledge of the Word of God it is utmost important that when a Christian comes to Christ they be educated in the things of God. If we are not taught the Word of God upon which we rest our faith, then upon what do we trust and have faith in? Heresy? False doctrine? False beliefs resting on a leaning on our own understanding in the vanity of our minds? Sadly, sometimes lately that is the norm.
In my half-century of studying the Scriptures I have seen a dumbing-down in Biblical education of Christians that alarms me. I can't quite put my finger on it except understanding that sin and evil increases as the Holy Spirit decreases. Darkness is only the absence of light. At any rate, I have been posting on Christian forums for twenty years and at this one site I was I knew a great deal but also interacted with others that were very sharp themselves and added to my learning for in things discussed that I was not as versed in caused me to study more and go into areas of study I found I was weak in but to my benefit. @civic was one of those members I "cut it up" with at that time. So, let me see if I can add to others education by posting the following because in order to bring enlightenment it is necessary to bring light. It seems to me that when a believer who reads the New Covenant writings comes across the word "Gentiles" that immediately in their mind they think "non-Jew and although not entirely wrong there were in in bible times certainly many types of Gentiles such as non-Jews that were of various "nationalities." Roman, Greek, Scythian, Barbarian, Gauls, etc., and Gentile proselytes and God-Fearers. Identifying the preceding is important in understanding "Gentile." So, let me submit the following for your educational consumption and hopefully spur some of the new members as well as neophytes and older Christians here on a subject that needs more light shed upon it and that is the several ethnic groups in existence when Christ walked the Holy Land.
GENTILE:
Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum Biblically describes who Gentiles are.
"A Gentile is simply anyone who is not a descendant of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. In short, a Gentile is anyone who is not a Jew."
But what about a Gentile who has converted to Judaism. Since "Jewishness" is determined by blood descendancy, a Gentile cannot be a Jew.
Fruchtenbaum says "Acceptance of Judaism by a Gentile does not make him a Jew but a proselyte." (cf. Mat 23:15, Act 2:10-11, Act 6:5 and Act 13:43 which all distinguish between Jews and proselytes.
PROSELYTES: is used in the LXX. for "stranger" (1 Chronicles 22:2), i.e., a comer to Palestine; a sojourner in the land (Exodus 12:48; 20:10; 22:21), and in the New Testament for a convert to Judaism. There were such converts from early times (Isaiah 56:3; Nehemiah 10:28; Esther 8:17). The law of Moses made specific regulations regarding the admission into the Jewish church of such as were not born Israelites (Exodus 20:10; 23:12; Exodus 12:19 Exodus 12:48; Deuteronomy 5:14; Deuteronomy 16:11 Deuteronomy 16:14, etc.). The Kenites, the Gibeonites, the Cherethites, and the Pelethites were thus admitted to the privileges of Israelites. Thus, also we hear of individual proselytes who rose to positions of prominence in Israel, as of Doeg the Edomite, Uriah the Hittite, Araunah the Jebusite, Zelek the Ammonite, Ithmah and Ebedmelech the Ethiopians.
In the time of Solomon there were one hundred and fifty-three thousand six hundred "strangers" in the land of Israel (1 Chronicles 22:2; 1 Chronicles 2:17 1 Chronicles 2:18). And the prophets speak of the time as coming when the strangers shall share in all the privileges of Israel (Ezekiel 47:22; Isaiah 2:2; 11:10; 56:3-6; Micah 4:1). Accordingly, in New Testament times, we read of proselytes in the synagogues, (Acts 10:2 Acts 10:7; Acts 13:42; Acts 13:43 Acts 13:50; 17:4; 18:7; Luke 7:5). The "religious proselytes" here spoken of were proselytes of righteousness, as distinguished from proselytes of the gate.
The distinction between "proselytes of the gate" (Exodus 20:10) and "proselytes of righteousness" originated only with the rabbis. According to them, the "proselytes of the gate" (half proselytes) were not required to be circumcised nor to comply with the Mosaic ceremonial law. They were bound only to conform to the so-called seven precepts (or Laws) of Noah (to abstain from idolatry, blasphemy, bloodshed, uncleaness, the eating of blood, theft, and to yield obedience to the authorities.) Besides these laws, however, they were required to abstain from work on the Sabbath, and to refrain from the use of leavened bread during the time of the Passover.
The "proselytes of righteousness", religious or devout proselytes (Acts 13:43), were bound to all the doctrines and precepts of the Jewish economy and were members of the synagogue in full communion.
The name "proselyte" occurs in the New Testament only in Matthew 23:15; Acts 2:10; 6:5; 13:43. The name by which they are commonly designated is that of "devout men," or men "fearing God" or "worshipping God."
GOD-FEARERS: A Gentile who was attracted to Judaism, particularly to the Torah and to the worship of God in the temple, but who had not (yet) been circumcised. Some God-fearers were circumcised; others remained a God-fearers forever. Some scholars think that Luke might have been a God-fearer because of his extensive knowledge of the Old Testament in both Greek and Hebrew.
Passages In Which Saved Gentiles are Still Called Gentiles:
If Gentiles became Israel or "spiritual" Israel when they were saved, then scripture should make a note that they are now "Israel" or becoming Israel. We should expect that some note of a change of identity from Gentile to Israel. These passages explicitly continue the practice of calling Gentile believers Gentiles, with no indication that their identity has changed to Israel, spiritual Israel, or true Jews.
Cornelius is a devout, God-fearing man (Act 10:2), and a Gentile. If Cornelius has been a God-fearing man for some time now, and if Gentiles become Israel when they are saved, then Cornelius should be called a convert to Israel, or an Israelite, but such is not the case. Cornelius is still being referred to as a Gentile.
Act 10:28 He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.
In the following passages, Paul is addressing both Israelites and Gentiles. These Gentiles are clearly believers. If Gentiles become Israel upon salvation, then Paul should be referring to them ALL as fellow Israelites. But he continues to maintain the ethnic distinction. Paul continues this distinction throughout the discourse.
Act 13:16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: "Fellow Israelites and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me!
Act 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
Throughout the Jerusalem Council, the participants from both the side of the Pharisees and the side of the disciples refer to Gentiles as Gentiles. There is no hint that Gentiles are no longer Gentiles and should be called Israel. They are referred to as Gentile believers.
Act 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses."
Act 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
Act 15:17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'--
Act 15:23 With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.
Gentiles being referred to as Gentiles and Gentile believers continues through Paul's visit to Jerusalem. There is no hint throughout that Gentiles should now be referred to nor understood as Israel.
Act 21:19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
Act 21:25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."
In the letter to the Ephesians, Gentiles are referred to as "you who are Gentiles by birth". There is no indication in this pericope that Gentiles by birth are going to be called Israel or change into Israelites just because they become sharers in Israel's commonwealth. They are Gentiles....by birth.
Eph 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (which is done in the body by human hands)--
Eph 3:6 indicates that Gentiles and Israelites are co-heirs. There is no indication that there is a change of identity on the part of Gentiles to "Israel".
Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
In the letter to the Romans, written many years following the Jerusalem Council, Gentiles continue to be referred to as Gentiles, with no indication in scripture throughout these passages that there is a change of identity from Gentile to Israel.
Rom 1:6 And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Rom 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry
Rom 15:9 and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing the praises of your name."
Rom 15:9 and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing the praises of your name."
Rom 15:10 Again, it says, "Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people."
Rom 15:11 And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles; let all the peoples extol him."
Rom 15:12 And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope."
Rom 15:27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.
Rom 16:4 They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.
If Gentiles become Israel, or even if they become Israel over time, why would Paul refer to them as Gentiles to Timothy?
1Ti 2:7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth; I am not lying--and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
On this subject which there is distinction still between Jews/Israel and Gentiles, let's be smart to see there is a difference before God between these two groups and post accordingly. And there is difference between proselytes and God-Fearers where Gentiles in named. It really shows incompetence that I read posts in which every time "Gentiles" is mentioned the poster automatically thinks it refers always to non-Jews. There is more to Scripture than is dreamt up in your pet theory philosophies so let's show some intelligence. I understand guests and unbelievers are able to read threads. If you are so "down" for evangelizing this group of people that may be witnessing your threads, at least KNOW what it is you're posting because if you are a child of truth being led by the Spirit of Truth teaching you the Word of Truth about the God is Truth, then KNOW what you're talking about and know enough to not spread lies. Don't guess. If you don't know about a subject, then say so and ask questions. There is always the Bible to reference to test what you have received. Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
In my half-century of studying the Scriptures I have seen a dumbing-down in Biblical education of Christians that alarms me. I can't quite put my finger on it except understanding that sin and evil increases as the Holy Spirit decreases. Darkness is only the absence of light. At any rate, I have been posting on Christian forums for twenty years and at this one site I was I knew a great deal but also interacted with others that were very sharp themselves and added to my learning for in things discussed that I was not as versed in caused me to study more and go into areas of study I found I was weak in but to my benefit. @civic was one of those members I "cut it up" with at that time. So, let me see if I can add to others education by posting the following because in order to bring enlightenment it is necessary to bring light. It seems to me that when a believer who reads the New Covenant writings comes across the word "Gentiles" that immediately in their mind they think "non-Jew and although not entirely wrong there were in in bible times certainly many types of Gentiles such as non-Jews that were of various "nationalities." Roman, Greek, Scythian, Barbarian, Gauls, etc., and Gentile proselytes and God-Fearers. Identifying the preceding is important in understanding "Gentile." So, let me submit the following for your educational consumption and hopefully spur some of the new members as well as neophytes and older Christians here on a subject that needs more light shed upon it and that is the several ethnic groups in existence when Christ walked the Holy Land.
GENTILE:
Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum Biblically describes who Gentiles are.
"A Gentile is simply anyone who is not a descendant of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. In short, a Gentile is anyone who is not a Jew."
But what about a Gentile who has converted to Judaism. Since "Jewishness" is determined by blood descendancy, a Gentile cannot be a Jew.
Fruchtenbaum says "Acceptance of Judaism by a Gentile does not make him a Jew but a proselyte." (cf. Mat 23:15, Act 2:10-11, Act 6:5 and Act 13:43 which all distinguish between Jews and proselytes.
PROSELYTES: is used in the LXX. for "stranger" (1 Chronicles 22:2), i.e., a comer to Palestine; a sojourner in the land (Exodus 12:48; 20:10; 22:21), and in the New Testament for a convert to Judaism. There were such converts from early times (Isaiah 56:3; Nehemiah 10:28; Esther 8:17). The law of Moses made specific regulations regarding the admission into the Jewish church of such as were not born Israelites (Exodus 20:10; 23:12; Exodus 12:19 Exodus 12:48; Deuteronomy 5:14; Deuteronomy 16:11 Deuteronomy 16:14, etc.). The Kenites, the Gibeonites, the Cherethites, and the Pelethites were thus admitted to the privileges of Israelites. Thus, also we hear of individual proselytes who rose to positions of prominence in Israel, as of Doeg the Edomite, Uriah the Hittite, Araunah the Jebusite, Zelek the Ammonite, Ithmah and Ebedmelech the Ethiopians.
In the time of Solomon there were one hundred and fifty-three thousand six hundred "strangers" in the land of Israel (1 Chronicles 22:2; 1 Chronicles 2:17 1 Chronicles 2:18). And the prophets speak of the time as coming when the strangers shall share in all the privileges of Israel (Ezekiel 47:22; Isaiah 2:2; 11:10; 56:3-6; Micah 4:1). Accordingly, in New Testament times, we read of proselytes in the synagogues, (Acts 10:2 Acts 10:7; Acts 13:42; Acts 13:43 Acts 13:50; 17:4; 18:7; Luke 7:5). The "religious proselytes" here spoken of were proselytes of righteousness, as distinguished from proselytes of the gate.
The distinction between "proselytes of the gate" (Exodus 20:10) and "proselytes of righteousness" originated only with the rabbis. According to them, the "proselytes of the gate" (half proselytes) were not required to be circumcised nor to comply with the Mosaic ceremonial law. They were bound only to conform to the so-called seven precepts (or Laws) of Noah (to abstain from idolatry, blasphemy, bloodshed, uncleaness, the eating of blood, theft, and to yield obedience to the authorities.) Besides these laws, however, they were required to abstain from work on the Sabbath, and to refrain from the use of leavened bread during the time of the Passover.
The "proselytes of righteousness", religious or devout proselytes (Acts 13:43), were bound to all the doctrines and precepts of the Jewish economy and were members of the synagogue in full communion.
The name "proselyte" occurs in the New Testament only in Matthew 23:15; Acts 2:10; 6:5; 13:43. The name by which they are commonly designated is that of "devout men," or men "fearing God" or "worshipping God."
GOD-FEARERS: A Gentile who was attracted to Judaism, particularly to the Torah and to the worship of God in the temple, but who had not (yet) been circumcised. Some God-fearers were circumcised; others remained a God-fearers forever. Some scholars think that Luke might have been a God-fearer because of his extensive knowledge of the Old Testament in both Greek and Hebrew.
Passages In Which Saved Gentiles are Still Called Gentiles:
If Gentiles became Israel or "spiritual" Israel when they were saved, then scripture should make a note that they are now "Israel" or becoming Israel. We should expect that some note of a change of identity from Gentile to Israel. These passages explicitly continue the practice of calling Gentile believers Gentiles, with no indication that their identity has changed to Israel, spiritual Israel, or true Jews.
Cornelius is a devout, God-fearing man (Act 10:2), and a Gentile. If Cornelius has been a God-fearing man for some time now, and if Gentiles become Israel when they are saved, then Cornelius should be called a convert to Israel, or an Israelite, but such is not the case. Cornelius is still being referred to as a Gentile.
Act 10:28 He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.
In the following passages, Paul is addressing both Israelites and Gentiles. These Gentiles are clearly believers. If Gentiles become Israel upon salvation, then Paul should be referring to them ALL as fellow Israelites. But he continues to maintain the ethnic distinction. Paul continues this distinction throughout the discourse.
Act 13:16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: "Fellow Israelites and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me!
Act 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
Throughout the Jerusalem Council, the participants from both the side of the Pharisees and the side of the disciples refer to Gentiles as Gentiles. There is no hint that Gentiles are no longer Gentiles and should be called Israel. They are referred to as Gentile believers.
Act 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses."
Act 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
Act 15:17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'--
Act 15:23 With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.
Gentiles being referred to as Gentiles and Gentile believers continues through Paul's visit to Jerusalem. There is no hint throughout that Gentiles should now be referred to nor understood as Israel.
Act 21:19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
Act 21:25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."
In the letter to the Ephesians, Gentiles are referred to as "you who are Gentiles by birth". There is no indication in this pericope that Gentiles by birth are going to be called Israel or change into Israelites just because they become sharers in Israel's commonwealth. They are Gentiles....by birth.
Eph 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (which is done in the body by human hands)--
Eph 3:6 indicates that Gentiles and Israelites are co-heirs. There is no indication that there is a change of identity on the part of Gentiles to "Israel".
Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
In the letter to the Romans, written many years following the Jerusalem Council, Gentiles continue to be referred to as Gentiles, with no indication in scripture throughout these passages that there is a change of identity from Gentile to Israel.
Rom 1:6 And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Rom 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry
Rom 15:9 and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing the praises of your name."
Rom 15:9 and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing the praises of your name."
Rom 15:10 Again, it says, "Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people."
Rom 15:11 And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles; let all the peoples extol him."
Rom 15:12 And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope."
Rom 15:27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.
Rom 16:4 They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.
If Gentiles become Israel, or even if they become Israel over time, why would Paul refer to them as Gentiles to Timothy?
1Ti 2:7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth; I am not lying--and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
On this subject which there is distinction still between Jews/Israel and Gentiles, let's be smart to see there is a difference before God between these two groups and post accordingly. And there is difference between proselytes and God-Fearers where Gentiles in named. It really shows incompetence that I read posts in which every time "Gentiles" is mentioned the poster automatically thinks it refers always to non-Jews. There is more to Scripture than is dreamt up in your pet theory philosophies so let's show some intelligence. I understand guests and unbelievers are able to read threads. If you are so "down" for evangelizing this group of people that may be witnessing your threads, at least KNOW what it is you're posting because if you are a child of truth being led by the Spirit of Truth teaching you the Word of Truth about the God is Truth, then KNOW what you're talking about and know enough to not spread lies. Don't guess. If you don't know about a subject, then say so and ask questions. There is always the Bible to reference to test what you have received. Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
