Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

[JLB]

He was saying a Calvinist would say he was regenerated when Saul watched Stephen get killed

this is not true.

I’m not saying that Paul was regenerated while persecuting Stephen.


I’m saying that is what Calvinism teaches; that people are born again first then later on they have the ability to believe because they have been spirit regenerated.

 

[JLB]

Calvinism teaches one is regenerated before faith.

Exactly.

So post the scriptures as to when you believe Saul was regenerated.

Here is where Paul was regenerated, when he believed Jesus was raised from the dead, because Jesus was speaking directly to him, and then Saul confessed Him as Lord.

Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Acts 9:4-6

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

He was the Pharisee of Pharisee’s and was appointed to destroy the church.


He was on his way to Damascus for more of the same when Jesus appeared to him.


Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
Acts 9:4-5


Do you believe Jesus was encountering the main guy that was heading up the persecution of some underling?

YOU SAID HE WAS REGENERATED ACCORDING TO CALVINISM WHEN HE HAD STEPHEN KILLED.

dude. if you are not going to pay attention to what you say or claim. don't get mad at those who try to correct you.

the event you just mentioned was long after Stephen was killed..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I’m not saying that Paul was regenerated while persecuting Stephen.

I did not say you did

You state a CALVINIST owuld say this

and your wrong

I’m saying that is what Calvinism teaches; that people are born again first then later on they have the ability to believe because they have been spirit regenerated.

But you said clearly, THEY would say he was regenerated when Stephen was killed

this is wrong



the part I circled. and the part you agreed to. is my point of contention.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Exactly.

So post the scriptures as to when you believe Saul was regenerated.

Here is where Paul was regenerated, when he believed Jesus was raised from the dead, because Jesus was speaking directly to him, and then Saul confessed Him as Lord.

Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Acts 9:4-6

dude. Your driving me crazy

YOU SAID A CALVINIST WOULD SAY SAUL WAS ALREADY REGENERATED WHEN SAUL WAS KILLED.

That is what I am refuting. you are falsly accusing them

I am not arguing your contention that they believe one is regenerated BEFORE they are saved.

WE AGREE..

 

[GodsGrace]

Only to one who doesn't understand what Paul is talking about in Romans 8.

Please don't.

Yes,

CONTEXT
CONTEXT
CONTEXT

The context demands that the entire passage, Romans 8:18-30, is speaking of a creation, a creature, that is mentally capable and aware of its circumstances and condition. This section is actually introduced by verses 12-17 which references we who are children of God who are heirs with Christ.

And in verse 17, Paul says, "and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him". Why?

"Because I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us" (v.18).

And then Paul continues to further expand on that idea in the rest of that passage. It is dealing with humanity. And specifically, not only humanity generally, "but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies" (v.23).

I have stated that it changes to MAN .....

I have no interest in this topic.

However, you NEVER did REPLY to my questions to you.
I forget the post now and am not really interested.

 

[JLB]

YOU SAID HE WAS REGENERATED ACCORDING TO CALVINISM WHEN HE HAD STEPHEN KILLED.

dude. if you are not going to pay attention to what you say or claim. don't get mad at those who try to correct you.

the event you just mentioned was long after Stephen was killed..

Acts 8 was the stoning of Stephen.

And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.. Acts 8:1-2


Acts 9 is just after this.


Please wake up.

 

[JLB]

dude. Your driving me crazy

YOU SAID A CALVINIST WOULD SAY SAUL WAS ALREADY REGENERATED WHEN SAUL WAS KILLED.

That is what I am refuting. you are falsly accusing them

I am not arguing your contention that they believe one is regenerated BEFORE they are saved.

WE AGREE..

You don’t seem to understand what Calvinism teaches.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Acts 8 was the stoning of Stephen.

And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.. Acts 8:1-2


Acts 9 is just after this.


Please wake up.

Wake up?

You said he was regenerated in acts 8.

thats not acts 9. many things happened between the events of acts 8 and acts 9

You wake up..

 

[JLB]

Wake up?

You said he was regenerated in acts 8.

thats not acts 9. many things happened between the events of acts 8 and acts 9

You wake up..

Here is my post.

Paul was regenerated in Acts 9

Exactly.

So post the scriptures as to when you believe Saul was regenerated.

Here is where Paul was regenerated, when he believed Jesus was raised from the dead, because Jesus was speaking directly to him, and then Saul confessed Him as Lord.

Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Acts 9:4-6

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You don’t seem to understand what Calvinism teaches.

Calvinism teaches that regeneration comes BEFORE faith

there are two possibilities a calvinist may consider in Sauls conversion

1. He was regerated the moment he was knocked off the horse.. then He repented and came to faith
2. He was regenerated sometime after annanias came and spoke to him. and because of this, he repented and came to faith

what no calvinist would say. Is Saul was regenerated when Saul watched stephen get murdered.

you need to lighten up. I am sick of you misrepresenting what I am saying because you are stuck in your mindset and can not hear me

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Here is my post.

Paul was regenerated in Acts 9

Yes

Not in acts 8

You accused a calvinists of believing Saul was regenerated when Stephen was killed in acts 8.

are you able to admit when you are wrong?

 

[MTMattie]

I cannot find a Calvinist that said that, but the BIBLE does say this …

• Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. (NKJV)

So what does “who separated me from my mother’s womb” mean? What did God separate Paul (Saul) for (from the “womb”)?

I think “regenerated” is a reach not supported by scripture, but I think there is a question in there worth asking about what “separated” means.

My guess would be that separated meant that the mom finally gave birth. Did God hasten that or was it full term? IDK and do not think it matters.

As to the regenerated thought.

It is more likely that he was chosen for a specific reason ... as Paul said "that I might preach Him among the Gentiles".

Even at that point it appears he was somewhat reluctant.

 

[atpollard]

My guess would be that separated meant that the mom finally gave birth. Did God hasten that or was it full term? IDK and do not think it matters.

That has the same weakness as “born of water and spirit” referring to amniotic fluid … it renders the Inspired (God-breathed) words as meaningless filler since EVERYONE from Cain to Judas to Jesus were both “born of amniotic fluid” and were “separated from their mother’s womb”.

I think that it conveys the same significance as Samson (born a Nazarite) or Samuel (promised to God from birth).

• Does that make Saul (Paul) saved (“born again”/“regenerated”) from birth? … No, I do not think scripture supports that interpretation.
• Does that make Saul (Paul) chosen (“set apart”/“elect”) for some specific purpose of God from birth? … Yes, I think that is what Paul was claiming (and what his special gifting and ultimate unusual apostolic calling support).

 

[atpollard]

Being born again before one can believe is standard in Calvinism and related theologies. Many, maybe most, think that Abraham was born again before he believed.

Then you should have no trouble locating that teaching in the Westminster Confession or Catechism (the gold standard for Reformed Theology for the last four hundred years or so).

As a Particular Baptist, we Baptists run afoul of many fine points of Reformed Theology … we merely agree on TULIP (soteriology).

 

[MTMattie]

That has the same weakness as “born of water and spirit” referring to amniotic fluid … it renders the Inspired (God-breathed) words as meaningless filler since EVERYONE from Cain to Judas to Jesus were both “born of amniotic fluid” and were “separated from their mother’s womb”.

I think that it conveys the same significance as Samson (born a Nazarite) or Samuel (promised to God from birth).

• Does that make Saul (Paul) saved (“born again”/“regenerated”) from birth? … No, I do not think scripture supports that interpretation.
• Does that make Saul (Paul) chosen (“set apart”/“elect”) for some specific purpose of God from birth? … Yes, I think that is what Paul was claiming (and what his special gifting and ultimate unusual apostolic calling support).

No to both.

 

[atpollard]

The Ordo Salutis and the Westminster Standards​

The ordo salutis or order of salvation is often reduced to a golden chain description: election, effectually calling, conversion (which is faith and repentance), justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification.

What exactly does this mean?

• Is this as a logical order?
• Is it a causal or even temporal order?
• And where is union with Christ?
• What does the Westminster Standards say about these matters?

Here is the Presbyterian / Reformed answer to the question:​

“How does God save someone?”​

Shorter Catechism​

Q. 32. What benefits do they that are effectually called partake of in this life?
A. They that are effectually called do in this life partake of justification, adoption and sanctification, and the several benefits which in this life do either accompany or flow from them.

Q. 36. What are the benefits which in this life do accompany or flow from justification, adoption and sanctification?
A. The benefits which in this life do accompany or flow from justification, adoption and sanctification, are, assurance of God’s love, peace of conscience, joy in the Holy Ghost, increase of grace, and perseverance therein to the end.

Larger Catechism​

Q. 66. What is that union which the elect have with Christ?
A. The union which the elect have with Christ is the work of God’s grace, whereby they are spiritually and mystically, yet really and inseparably, joined to Christ as their head and husband; which is done in their effectual calling.

Confession of Faith​

10.1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

11.1. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness, by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.

12.1. All those that are justified, God vouchsafeth, in and for his only Son Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption, by which they are taken into the number, and enjoy the liberties and privileges of the children of God, have his name put upon them, receive the Spirit of adoption, have access to the throne of grace with boldness, are enabled to cry, Abba, Father, are pitied, protected, provided for, and chastened by him, as by a father: yet never cast off, but sealed to the day of redemption; and inherit the promises, as heirs of everlasting salvation.

13.1. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

You can read it for yourself and decide when someone is “born again” according to Reformed (Calvinist) Theology.

 

[Jim]

Then you should have no trouble locating that teaching in the Westminster Confession or Catechism (the gold standard for Reformed Theology for the last four hundred years or so).

As a Particular Baptist, we Baptists run afoul of many fine points of Reformed Theology … we merely agree on TULIP (soteriology).

It is fundamental in the false concept of total depravity.

 

[Jim]

The Ordo Salutis and the Westminster Standards​

The ordo salutis or order of salvation is often reduced to a golden chain description: election, effectually calling, conversion (which is faith and repentance), justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification.

What exactly does this mean?

• Is this as a logical order?
• Is it a causal or even temporal order?
• And where is union with Christ?
• What does the Westminster Standards say about these matters?

Here is the Presbyterian / Reformed answer to the question:​

“How does God save someone?”​

You can read it for yourself and decide when someone is “born again” according to Reformed (Calvinist) Theology.

There is no need to read from the Westminster Standards for any correct theology. The Word of God is quite sufficient to know and understand God's truth; and the ordo salutis, election, effectually calling, justification, adoption, sanctification and glorification as posited by Presbyterian/Reformed theology is not found in God's Word.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That has the same weakness as “born of water and spirit” referring to amniotic fluid … it renders the Inspired (God-breathed) words as meaningless filler since EVERYONE from Cain to Judas to Jesus were both “born of amniotic fluid” and were “separated from their mother’s womb”.

which makes it perfectly reasonable

Jesus said, we must be born again (in the greek literally a second time)

that which is born of water, must be born of the flesh.

if this confused you.

That which is born in the flesh, must be born in the spirit.

I think that it conveys the same significance as Samson (born a Nazarite) or Samuel (promised to God from birth).

• Does that make Saul (Paul) saved (“born again”/“regenerated”) from birth? … No, I do not think scripture supports that interpretation.
• Does that make Saul (Paul) chosen (“set apart”/“elect”) for some specific purpose of God from birth? … Yes, I think that is what Paul was claiming (and what his special gifting and ultimate unusual apostolic calling support).

agree.