atpollard
Well-known member
Who is "us" in that scripture?
Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism
- Thread starter Behold
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Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
Lol
Show me where God says if you obey every word you will be saved?
The law was a schoolmaster to lead us to christ, You need to study galations 3.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
That is because the verses you post,,,to which I have replied more than once...
do NOT mean what the reformed THINK they mean.
You see everything through calvinist colored glasses.
Scipture does not lie.
CALVINISM LIES.
If show you a conflict....
you should ponder WHY there's a conflict...
not tell me I'm stating a scripture is wrong...
I'M STATING THE OPPOSITE.
You tell everyone on the Forum that they don't understand....
maybe YOU don't understand??
Well atpollard, we must exegete scripture.
The best way to do this is to let scripture explain scripture.
I explained to you different concepts of John 6:44,,,at least 2 or 3...
NONE OF WHICH AGREES WITH JOHN CALVIN theology.
I'm not going to explain again why YOUR understanding of the word DRAW would lead to universalism due to the statement of Jesus in John 12:32
I did address John 6:44.
YOU OTOH,,,cannot show how YOUR understanding is the correct understanding.
And you tend to argue with me instead of replying to my explanations and why you don't agree.
It might be because I'm a girl.
But I've studied Calvinism A LOT for many years....
so I'm ready when you are.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
Everyone.. Paul read those words to the galatian church, which had jew and gentile it was written to all
God wrote the law in our hearts, thats why a gentile could keep the law.. because it is in our dna.
We just can not be perfect. Because everyone one of us can;t get past the first command.. some of us on a daily basis
atpollard
Well-known member
Have you ever heard of Charles Spurgeon?
(he was a reformed Baptist Preacher whose sermons were published in the newspaper, so they are preserved for us to read them)
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Sir....
TOTAL INABILITY means that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.
It DOES NOT mean that man is unable to obey God.
Please get your theology correct.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
Ever heard of the bible
It was persevered for us to read.
Be a follower of God not man
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Yes atpollard...I've heard of John Spurgeon.
And I'm sorry John MacArthur is so sick and probably dying.
And I love RC even though I don't agree with him on anything reformed.
And I can't stand John Piper and how he talks.
And I have no respect for Augustine of Hippo for more reasons than one.
So?
Now what.
Let's stick to the bible..
Johann
Well-known member
Some clarification needed here brother---
The law is indeed a set of commands given by God.
Salvation is not through the law, but the law reveals the need for a Savior. The law could not save, but it pointed to Christ, who fulfills the law on behalf of believers (Matthew 5:17).
God did not say, "Keep the law and you will be saved," but He did say that obedience to His commands was expected and that the law was a guide to living in covenant with Him. Yet, salvation is through faith in Christ alone, not by the works of the law.
J.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
The law is the moral commands, the national commands, and the sacrificial commands. All which lead to christ
The moral commands prove to us we are in sin
The sacrificial commands prove to us what needs to be done to be forgiven of those sins.
Johann
Well-known member
More for the readers sake here--love the fact you don't dismiss the moral commands/Imperatives of YHWH fulfilled in Christ Jesus brother.
You shall have no other gods before Me (Exodus 20:3)
This commandment is not explicitly mentioned in the Pauline Epistles. However, Paul often addresses idolatry and the worship of false gods, particularly in 1 Corinthians 10:14 and Romans 1:25. These passages emphasize that believers should avoid idolatry, which reflects the underlying principle of this commandment.
2. You shall not make for yourselves a carved image (Exodus 20:4)
While not directly quoted in the Pauline letters, the issue of idolatry is addressed in passages like Romans 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 10:14, where Paul warns against the worship of idols, indirectly upholding this commandment.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain (Exodus 20:7)
In Ephesians 4:29, Paul speaks to the issue of speech, instructing believers to use their words for edification, which indirectly relates to honoring God's name and avoiding the misuse of it.
Romans 2:24 addresses how God's name is dishonored among the Gentiles when they fail to live according to His standards, which can be seen as an indirect reference to this commandment.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy (Exodus 20:8)
Colossians 2:16–17 addresses the Sabbath, indicating that Christians are not bound by the observance of the Sabbath as part of the law: “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.”
5. Honor your father and your mother (Exodus 20:12)
Ephesians 6:2–3 directly quotes this commandment: “Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.”
6. You shall not murder (Exodus 20:13)
This commandment is referenced in Romans 13:9, where Paul lists several commandments in the context of love: "The commandments, 'You shall not murder... You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
7. You shall not commit adultery (Exodus 20:14)
1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and Romans 13:9 both address sexual immorality, including adultery, as part of the moral instructions for believers. In 1 Corinthians 6:18, Paul urges believers to flee from sexual immorality, which aligns with the prohibition against adultery.
8. You shall not steal (Exodus 20:15)
Ephesians 4:28 addresses theft: “Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands.”
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor (Exodus 20:16)
Ephesians 4:25 says, “Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor,” which directly addresses the issue of bearing false witness.
10. You shall not covet (Exodus 20:17)
Romans 7:7 mentions coveting specifically: “I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet.'” Additionally, Colossians 3:5 instructs believers to put to death "covetousness, which is idolatry."
Pauline Epistles mention directly or indirectly 9 out of the 10 commandments in some form. The only commandment that is not directly referenced is the command about not making a graven image (Exodus 20:4), though idolatry is addressed indirectly in various places.
In Paul's teachings, especially in his letters to the Romans and Ephesians, the commandments are often connected to the broader principle of love (as in Romans 13:8–10) or the law of Christ, emphasizing that believers are to live out these commandments not to be justified but as part of their sanctification and transformation through the Holy Spirit.
The Sabbath commandment is the most notable one that Paul does not insist upon, as it was part of the Mosaic Law that was fulfilled in Christ (as seen in Colossians 2:16–17).
Shalom.
J.
atpollard
Well-known member
Sure it is …
… all appearances to the contrary not withstanding.
The Essence of the Gospel
Charles Haddon Spurgeon December 4, 1870
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That does not say man is able to seek God. It's simply stating what man should do not what he necessarily has the moral ability or desire to do.
You know exactly what it means. Abraham knew the gospel. How you ask? Great question. Because it was preached to him. You know. Like the text says.
However you need to cope. Glad I can help
civic
Well-known member
context is KING and it tells us that all will be taught by God and everyone who has listened and learned from the Father comes to Jesus. Thats the context of drawing and the ones who by drawing come are spelled out below by Jesus.I say that I will not discuss IRRESISTIBLE GRACE until after you have responded to TOTAL INABILITY ... and you claim victory in a discussion on Irresistible Grace that you were having alone.
So When Jesus stated, clearly and unequivocally, the "No one can seek me" ... Jesus lied.
That is your response to John 6:44 "No one can come to me ..."
Total Inability is false and Jesus lied when he said "no one can come" because EVERYONE can come.
Is that your final answer to John 6:44 "No one can come to me ..."?
John 6:43-45
“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45;It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Jesus tells us the following facts in the passage
1-none can come to Him unless the Father draws them
2- those who are drwn and come will be raised on the last day
3- they will be taught by God
4- everyone who has heard from the Father and learned from Him come to Jesus
conclusion: the same ones who come to Jesus are the ones who have heard from the Father, learned from the Father and are drawn by the Father to the Son.
hope this helps !!!
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atpollard
Well-known member
... and THAT is why I respond to verses that you post. Even if we disagree on the exegesis (which of course we will or we would not be having a conversation, we would just be offering 'likes' to posts in another conversation), you are at least willing to extend the courtesy of talking about the verse I actually posted beyond "no, it means the opposite of what it says because [insert 10 other verses]".
Sadly, this feels more "tag-team" than "conversation" since whoever I respond to ... someone other than that person seems to want to respond to my post. So, I have given up attempting to convince @GodsGrace and @Eternally-Grateful of the truth of "Total Inability" [the point that both Calvinsts and Arminians agreed upon since scripture was so clear on the need for God to do something to initiate saving a fallen people].
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." - Ephesians 2:1-3 [ESV]
... THESE people were never going to be able to choose God without some help from God. John Wesley called that help "prevenient grace". Luther called that help the "mystery of Grace". Reformed called that help "Irresistible Grace" (in the 1900's). Classic Arminians called it "Human Inability". However all agreed that GOD must make the first move and disagreed on "WHO" and "HOW" of that move ... but agreed on the NEED FOR God's "something".
Even YOU acknowledge that something in John 6:44 ... "the ones who have heard from the Father, learned from the Father and are drawn by the Father to the Son" ... which is different from those who stand and deny any inability on the part of man and refuse to discuss John 6:44 "No one can come to me ..." except to say that "GOD DRAWS EVERYONE" as a simple "taint so" to the scripture I presented.
civic
Well-known member
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
Nothing you have shown would convince us of total inability.
If I was unable with the help of God. then my gripe still stands
God still forces people to believe, and refuses to allow others the possibility to believe, hence in reality forcing them to not Believe.,
This is not the god of the bible
Everyone is offered grace. The fact we live and breath is based on grace. there is no special grace.
this is the churches attempt to try to explain something they can not with the word of God alone. they have to change meanings and add words.
Jesus explains john 6
1. Those who hear and believe will be given, and he will lose nothing
2. those who do not believe, well nothing will be given
remember Jesus fed all 5000 (plus) the day before. They came to him, Jesus knew their hearts and told them not to work for food that perishes, but food which endures to eternal life, which he will give them (the bread from heaven)
if they were totally unable (as you stated above) then Jesus would not tell them to labor for this food which endures forever.
He also told them why they did not see and hear.. Because they did not believe.
Jesus was sent to them, as John said He came into his own (was sent) but his own received him not. But as many as receive him. to THEM..
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
God tried to draw 5000 (plus) by feeding them on a hillWe are talking about John 6 remember.
and draw.
and those who are drawn.
but most did not believe, they came the next day looking for food. and still did not see and believe Jesus true message of salvation
atpollard
Well-known member
You are ... I am trying desperately to leave an unprofitable topic.We are talking about John 6 remember.
and draw.
and those who are drawn.
[But that was a clever TIT FOR TAT]
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