GodsGrace
Active Member
But why didn't God also invite the other ones?
Did the ones God invited Want to attend?
Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism
- Thread starter Behold
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Did the ones God invited Want to attend?
GodsGrace
Active Member
We've all explained your verses many, many times.
None of the above verses support Calvinism.
However, the below verses DO support our free will to desire to be saved and HOW to be saved:
Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith.
Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 10:13
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Romans 12:1
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice,
Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
Luke 13:13
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Many more teachings on HOW to be saved.
If God chose who would be saved...
NO INSTRUCTION would be required.
Yup, when they were given a new heart and therefore a new disposition.
GodsGrace
Active Member
But why didn't God also invite the others?
The ones that were Not invited?
TibiasDad
Active Member
But they are, because God predestined them to be what they are. They can never believe from the get go!
Doug
atpollard
Active Member
Not according to scripture.
[G4309] proorízō: to predetermine, decide beforehand (literally "to limit in advance")
- [Act 4:28 KJV] 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before[G4309] to be done.
- [Rom 8:29-30 KJV] 29 For whom he did foreknow, he[G4309][G0] also did predestinate[G4309] [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate,[G4309] them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
- [1Co 2:7 KJV] 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained[G4309] before the world unto our glory:
- [Eph 1:5, 11 KJV] 5 Having predestinated[G4309] us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ... 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated[G4309] according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
God's [G4309] is only towards salvation.
TibiasDad
Active Member
atpollard
Active Member
Let’s ask God:
Isaiah 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Hebrews 6:17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath,
Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Romans 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
So, I would have to say that God declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not done, his counsel stands and he accomplishes all his purpose; God works all things according to the counsel of his will and unchangeable character of his purpose; God has mercy and compassion on whom he will have mercy and compassion, and he hardens whomever he wills.
I do not know if that is “all that happens”, but that is a great deal that God claims he does.
So I will go with God’s answer.
Do you acknowledge God’s answer?
Do you affirm what God claims he does?
TibiasDad
Active Member
Well then, you just falsified your previous statement that “God's [G4309] (predetermination) is only towards salvation.”
The “end from the beginnings” includes all things, not just salvation!
And by the way, I asked for your viewpoint not God’s! God has already lead me in his viewpoint; that’s why I disagree with yours.
Doug
Oh, but they certainly have the natural ability to make that choice. Not moral ability to do so however. They are "dead in trespasses and sins". They are in the flesh and nothing good comes from the flesh. Can you choose to live a sinless life?
All are invited.
atpollard
Active Member
Edit by Admin
... [G4309] proorízō: to predetermine, decide beforehand (literally "to limit in advance") IS only towards salvation (I provided ALL the verses that used that word and NONE spoke of damnation ... go read the context).If you are comfortable adding to the word of God to redefine what "God wrote" into what you want it to mean ... that is on YOU and not on me. God said he is "declaring the end from the beginning", God did not say "all things" no matter how much you want to insist that God is responsible for damnation.
You asked about too general a topic (all that happens), and I gave my view "I do not know if that is 'all that happens', but that is a great deal that God claims he does."
Reading between the lines of your posts for the 'gotcha' that you tried to fabricate with semantics, I assume you really wanted to know if I thought that God was 100% responsible for salvation and damnation. You should have just asked THAT question rather than playing games with "all that happens".
My viewpoint is:
By the decree of God and for the His glory some men are predestined to eternal life through Jesus Christ [1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34]; other men are left to act in their sin to their condemnation in accordance with His justice [Romans 9:22–23; Jude 4].
Given the volume of scripture that I have offered and you have both ignored and disagree with, it would appear that it is God's viewpoint you disagree with more than mine. My viewpoint, you merely mischaracterize as HARD DETERMINISM when it is not.God has already lead me in his viewpoint; that’s why I disagree with yours.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
The inescapable corner that Calvinism lives in is that every single aspect of reality is determined by God to be what it is.
This means all choices, including the very words I am typing and whether I am sitting with my legs crossed or not, are irrevocably determined and cannot be any different.
Every choice I make can be righteous or unrighteous. I, as a redeemed person, can always choose righteousness, and the ability to do so increases as I mature in Christ.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
Either God determines all things/ “whatsoever comes to pass”, or he doesn’t determine all things/ “whatsoever comes to pass”: which is it?
Doug
As creator and sustainer, yes He is.
Agreed. Especially if your actions are foreknown for certain.
Sure, as a geniune Christain.
atpollard
Active Member
I cannot find "whatsoever comes to pass" in the Bible, so I see no proof that God makes that claim.
[Which only makes sense, since "sin" comes to pass and God is not responsible for our choice to sin.]
- James 1:13-15 [ESV] Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
However God DOES claim to be responsible for predestination to salvation.
- Romans 8:29-30 [ESV] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
- Romans 9:14-16 [ESV] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
- Ephesians 1:3-14 [ESV] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
TibiasDad
Active Member
I didn’t say it was in the Bible, it is from the Westminster Confession, the Calvinistic Confession of Faith.
"some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death."<a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Confession_of_Faith#cite_note-10"><span>[</span>10<span>]</span></a>
Doug
atpollard
Active Member
I am a Baptist, not a Presbyterian. To me, the WCF is just another old book that incorrectly advocates baptizing babies.
GodsGrace
Active Member
Atpollard
All the confessions, including the 1689, to which you adhere, are basically all the same.
By your very own belief system it becomes CRUCIAL to baptize babies.
Or are they already chosen at birth?
GodsGrace
Active Member
If the WCF is wrong,,,,,
Then Your Confession can be wrong too.
How can we possibly know the Truth?
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