Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

[GodsGrace]

Not particularly interested in what the Early Church Fathers had to say? If you ever are, here’s a simple way to explore it: just type, “What did the pre-Augustinian Church Fathers say about John 12:44?”

As I mentioned earlier, I just woke up and this is my real-time quiet space—I’m hoping to remain more of an observer than an active participant in all the sharp critiques flying around.

J.

Actually J...I KNOW what the early church fathers believed about free will.
And I don't care for the pre-Augustinian fathers.
I like the pre-nicene fathers...and even THAT is too far along for me.
But thanks.

PS I use the New Advent Encyclopedia at times because it's chock full of information.
But it is difficult to understand and I don't really enjoy it.

 

[Johann]

For anyone interested, here is my Biblical explanation and proof of free will:

Post in thread 'An Article on free will'

Dec 31, 2024

Ever heard the phrase "free will is not in the Bible?" This is a misleading assertion made by many, as if only a certain specificity of statement can communicate an idea. But I do not accept the Trinity because it is explicitly declared in Scripture, but rather that it is in inevitable deduction from the stated data. Thus there is no shame or wrong in any idea not being stated as clearly as it could possibly be stated, when it can be clearly deduced. Hence, the philosophical notion of libertarian freedom is under the same umbrella, for just as the Trinity is deduced from Scripture...

• Dizerner

I'm not denying human volition, otherwise how on earth are we to respond to the Imperatives of Christ?

J.

If ALL those called were also JUSTIFIED, then the Calling was clearly ONLY effective.
If NOT ALL of those called were JUSTIFIED, then the calling was clearly NOT effective.

If the calling was NOT EFFECTIVE because an individual was CALLED but NOT JUSTIFIED, then taking a step back, what does it mean to be PREDESTINED to be CALLED and NOT JUSTIFIED?

Are we really prepared to embrace that version of radical Supralapsarianism?
God predestined someone to be the bad soil?

No, I think it is far clearer that Romans 8:29-30 is speaking of ONE GROUP … “those” … for whom every step GOD will do (as the verses say). Therefore, the fact that “those” are “predestined, justified and glorified” means that when they are “called” (in THIS VERSE) that call MUST be effective. The alternatives

• God predestining some to an ineffectual call (Supralapsarianism) [some are lost at each step]
• God justifying and glorifying without an effective call. [some are gained at each step]

Brother, I hear where you're coming from-and I get the logical pull of the syllogism you’re laying out:

“If all those called are justified, then the call must be effectual; otherwise, the sequence is broken.”

But I want to challenge that by looking at both the grammar of Romans 8:29–30 and how Paul’s argument functions within its actual literary and theological context, not a systematic one imposed afterward.

Let’s slow-walk it--

Romans 8:30 – οὓς δὲ προώρισεν, τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν· καὶ οὓς ἐκάλεσεν, τούτους καὶ ἐδικαίωσεν· οὓς δὲ ἐδικαίωσεν, τούτους καὶ ἐδόξασεν.

The verbs here—προώρισεν (he foreordained), ἐκάλεσεν (he called), ἐδικαίωσεν (he justified), ἐδόξασεν (he glorified)—are all aorist active indicatives, which is important. The aorist tense is used here to state these actions in summary form, not to establish a metaphysical determinism.

Paul is painting the big picture for a group—not making an iron-clad theological syllogism for how salvation must always and necessarily work in every instance.

You’re treating the passage as if Paul is saying, "All who are ever called must be justified" (as a sort of exhaustive logical chain), but that’s not what he actually writes. He says that those whom He foreknew, i.e., those already loving God (cf. Rom 8:28 – τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν τὸν θεόν), were predestined to be conformed, and from there, God carried that group all the way through to glorification. That’s not an ontological definition of “called,” it’s a retrospective description of believers.

Let’s also not overlook that “calling” (ἐκάλεσεν) in Paul’s letters doesn’t always carry the same valence. Yes, sometimes he uses it to refer to God’s initiating grace (e.g., Gal 1:6), but you can’t flatten every use into a soteriological absolute. Look at Matthew 22:14:

“Many are called (κλητοί), but few are chosen (ἐκλεκτοί).”
That distinction shows that the call can be rejected. It’s not inherently effectual.

Even in Romans itself, Paul doesn’t deny human agency in the reception of the call. Later in Romans 11:22, he says,

“Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.”— That’s not a monergistic blueprint.

As for προέγνω ("foreknew") in 8:29, it’s not merely “foreknew facts about people” or “foreknew they would believe”—but neither is it a code word for “foreordained.” The verb προγινώσκω can carry relational overtones:

In the LXX, Amos 3:2: μόνον ὑμᾶς ἔγνων – “You only have I known.”

That’s covenant language, not cognitive omniscience or determinism.

And on this:

"If some were called but not justified, that means the call failed."

No, that’s just a false binary. Romans 8:30 isn’t trying to explain what happens to everyone who is called; it’s telling the story of what God does with those who respond, those who love Him (v.28).

You’re reading the verse as if Paul were talking about all hypothetical callings and outcomes. But he’s not writing a Calvinist syllogism—he’s encouraging believers in their security by walking them through God’s faithfulness, not predetermining the outcome of everyone who ever hears the call.

The real danger is that we impose a logic that turns God’s personal invitation into a mechanized system that excludes the call's contingency on a human response. But Acts 7:51 still says:

“You stiff-necked people… you always resist the Holy Spirit.”
— So clearly, the call of God can be resisted.

And one more thing—this comment:

“Are we really prepared to say God predestines someone to be bad soil?”

That’s not what Romans 8 teaches. Jesus’ own parable of the sower (Luke 8) speaks of various soils, and He holds the hearers responsible for how they receive the Word. He doesn’t say God made them bad soil. In fact, Luke 8:15 says the good soil represents those with καλῇ καὶ ἀγαθῇ καρδίᾳ—a good and noble heart—who hear the word and retain it. There’s a human response here.

So, brother, I appreciate the zeal for honoring God’s sovereignty, but Romans 8:29–30 isn’t a deterministic blueprint—it’s a pastoral assurance to those who are already walking with Christ that God will finish what He started.

It’s a comfort text, not a Calvinist chain.

Such is the preponderance of Scripture.

J.

 

[Studyman]

Romans 8:29 V-AIA-3S
GRK: ὅτι οὓς προέγνω καὶ προώρισεν
NAS: For those whom He foreknew, He also
KJV: For whom he did foreknow, he also
INT: Because those whom he foreknew also he

• Did he (GOD) know facts about? … [information]
• Did he (GOD) know THEM (actual people)? … [relation]

It is written in the Holy Scriptures:

Is. 46: 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 "Declaring the end from the beginning", and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God knows the End from the Beginning because in His Realm, the End has already happened. He knows the "End" of Every Life HE creates. He knew His Christ would be murdered (Slain) from the foundation of the world. He knew Israel would be enslaved by Egypt 400 years centuries before it happened. Not because HE made it happen, but because HE saw it happen, and declared it to Abraham.

Gen. 15: 13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

He knows the happenings of "The Last Great Day", another of God's feasts rejected by this world.

Ps. 90: 1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. 3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. 4 For "a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past", and as a watch in the night.

So given the biblical Truth that God knows the End from the Beginning, HE already knows who will "choose" Him and who will not. I don't know the end of my days, so I am instructed to "Live by Faith", to "Yield myself to God, and my body as instruments of God's Righteousness", to "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality" all the days of my life. That is the Prize I press towards, the goal of the race I am in.

And I am promised that if I "Endure to the End" of my life. If I "Continue in HIS GOODNESS", If I "Strive to Enter the Narrow Path Jesus Walked", if I am a "Doer" of the Christ's Sayings, and not a hearer only, I shall be saved. And all men who follow the Instructions of the Jesus "of the Bible", and "Live By" the Words of God, and not the words of all the "MANY" voices in the Garden God placed me in, "That Profess to know God", that Call Jesus Lord, Lord, I can have Faith that I have passed from Death into Life.

He "Foreknows" everyone. The entire History of this world is like a Globe in His Hand. He can see the End from the Beginning because in His Realm, the End has already happened. He lives outside the constraints of Time that we are subject to.

Can God be surprised about something that happens today, next week or a hundred years from now? Not the God "of the bible". He has already seen it before HE created this world.

He has made His judgments. He has made the rules. He has shown His Tender Mercies, and His Wrath and has promised the outcome of every man, according to His Deeds. And I "Believe Him".

He gave us a Law concerning His Messiah.

Duet. 18: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Is. 14: 24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

Are these things true? I have Faith that they are, and this is my Hope.

Rom. 8: 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

So it doesn't matter to me what the Calvinists teach, or the Bereans teach, or the Catholics teach, or any of this world's religious sects or businesses. I am going to "Live By" the "Love of God" that HE gave me through His Christ, the Jesus of the Bible. As Paul confirms in Romans 8.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from "the love of God", which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And how does the Spirit of Christ define the "Love of God"?

1 John 5: 1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him "that begat" loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For "this is the love of God", that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus "is the Son of God"?

Anyone who "Yield himself a servant to obey This God", is predestined to eternal life.

And I have Hope that my Faith in Him is not in vain.

 

[atpollard]

It’s a comfort text, not a Calvinist chain.

It does not seem like much of a comfort if “those whom” in each part of the chain are a unique and unrelated group of people. If “those whom” are the same people, then irrespective of general-overview or cause-effect … this particular group of “those whom” must step on every base from predestined to glorified. (which is a comfort to “those whom”).

One does not reach justified from an ineffective calling. [no Greek word tense will convince me God justifies the uncalled].

 

[atpollard]

.

 

[Johann]

It does not seem like much of a comfort if “those whom” in each part of the chain are a unique and unrelated group of people. If “those whom” are the same people, then irrespective of general-overview or cause-effect … this particular group of “those whom” must step on every base from predestined to glorified. (which is a comfort to “those whom”).

One does not reach justified from an ineffective calling. [no Greek word tense will convince me God justifies the uncalled].

Couple of points to ponder brother.

Thanks for raising an important pastoral and exegetical concern regarding the “golden chain” of Romans 8:29–30. I fully agree that Paul’s intention here is to offer assurance to believers — that is, to “those who love God… who are called according to purpose” (τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν τὸν θεὸν… τοῖς κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς, Rom 8:28).

However, to assume that every link in the chain must apply with equal and exclusive identity to the exact same individuals without interpretive nuance overlooks both the syntax of the passage and wider Pauline theology.

Let’s examine it carefully---

1. The use of “οὓς” (those whom): grammatical consistency does not demand determinism
Each clause in Romans 8:29–30 begins with the relative pronoun οὓς (accusative masculine plural of ὅς), linking the actions of God to a group. Yes, this is a syntactical chain:
οὓς προέγνω → καὶ προώρισεν
οὓς δὲ προώρισεν → τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν
οὓς ἐκάλεσεν → τούτους καὶ ἐδικαίωσεν
οὓς δὲ ἐδικαίωσεν → τούτους καὶ ἐδόξασεν

But grammatical linkage does not establish exhaustive identity between every individual in each group. Paul is not defining the total scope of every person ever called, but tracing the divine work in the lives of the faithful remnant — i.e., those who are “in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1), those “led by the Spirit” (v.14), those who “suffer with Him that they may be glorified” (v.17). The context is pastoral, not systematic.

Calling (ἐκάλεσεν) must be interpreted contextually — not absolutized

The verb ἐκάλεσεν (aorist active indicative of καλέω) is used widely in Pauline literature, both for a general external call and for the effective summons to salvation. For example--

– In Romans 1:6, Paul speaks of “the called of Jesus Christ” -the believing community.
– But in Matthew 22:14, Jesus says, “Many are called (κλητοί), but few are chosen (ἐκλεκτοί).”

This distinction between the general invitation and actual response is consistent with Paul’s theology in Romans 10:21, where Israel is said to be “disobedient and obstinate,” though the Lord “stretched out His hands all day long.”

So, to insist that the calling in Romans 8:30 must be effective in every usage of the verb is an exegetical assumption, not a grammatical or contextual necessity.

Justification is always conditional on faith, never merely calling

Romans 5:1 states clearly: “Therefore, being justified by faith (δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως)...” - not by predestination, not by calling in and of itself.

The implication is that even among the called, only those who respond with faith are justified. Would you agree?

Your statement “no Greek word tense will convince me God justifies the uncalled” is understandable emotionally — but it misunderstands the order of grace in Romans-- the instrumental cause of justification is faith, not election.

The pastoral comfort lies in the trajectory, not in theological determinism

Paul’s pastoral intent is to affirm that God is faithful to bring those who truly love Him — and live by the Spirit (Rom 8:14) — all the way to glory.

It is not to describe an impersonal mechanism in which each verb applies to an invisible set without human participation.

In fact, Romans 11:22 explicitly warns: “Note then the kindness and the severity of God… if you continue in His kindness, otherwise you also will be cut off.”

This makes clear that participation in the process is not automatic, and that conditionality remains part of Paul’s framework, even within soteriology.

5. Cross-references to clarify: – 2 Thess 2:14: “He called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Here, the call comes through the gospel — and must be received. – Gal 5:4: “You have fallen from grace” — addressed to previously justified people.

– Heb 3:14: “We have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end.”

So while the calling of Romans 8:30 is certainly a divine initiative, it is not a mechanical predetermination.

Nor is the golden chain a universal soteriological template applied to all humanity without distinction or response. It is a doxological affirmation for those walking in the Spirit, encouraging perseverance- not extinguishing human will.

Amazingly--this verse comes to mind immediately-----Romans 5:8–9 (KJV)

Shalom.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, you must realize a lot of denominations claim their teaching goes back and they are not really new. Plus if by your own admission the majority of the visible church went away from the truth, then going back to Scripture alone can seem new. But let's put that aside for now as it doesn't matter that much.

I think it matters, but OK.

What makes a false doctrine a true heresy instead of just a false teaching, would be that it is damnable, you cannot be saved holding it. But the atonement covers a lot of false doctrine.

I'm not saying the person practicing a heresy is damned.
We'd need your definition of heresy.
The atonement covers everything.

This is why the single most central doctrine in Christianity is the atonement and what it means, because it is whereby our sins can be forgiven. If we hold a bare belief that Jesus' suffering atones for our sins, we have placed our trust in the atonement, even if we add on a bunch of ridiculous and silly false doctrines like thinking Jesus didn't really suffer what our sins actually deserve

I would have said the central doctrine is the Divinity of Christ.
But I understand your point and will agree.
Without the atonement there is no Christianity.

But it gets tricky around here, and we are talking about the difference between an eternity in bliss or torture, so it's kind of a big deal if one cares about the truth. SDAs deny hell exists, but they still believe they need an atonement. I would say the JW and the LDS do not really accept the need for an atonement.

I don't know too much about the LDS....but yes, the JWs don't even believe Jesus is God so there doesn't need to be an atonement for them.
They follow their laws and have faith in Yahweh. I think they're saved...just have it all wrong.

But even a Unitarian or Universalist can admit they need atonement potentially. Calvinists and Provisionists, despite their serious errors, still believe they need an atonement for sins in Christ. The Work of Christ is the true dividing line between salvation and damnation.

Agreed.
Jesus saves ALL men that want to be saved.
I'm not sure what a provisionist believes.
I know about Calvinism....
what errors does a provisionist believe?
I believe L. Flowers speaks about provisionism.

As for Provisionism, it often double speaks, just like Calvinism does. At one moment it will kind of accept the need for Preceding Grace, at another moment practically deny it.

I think you mean what I call prevenient grace.
PG MUST exist or no one would ever be aware of God.

Realize it is a more evil thing to put good in man than to put evil in God, and why is that? Because if you put good into man you lessen your acknowledgement of need for God's grace, but if you put evil in God, you can still admit you are evil anyway, so your putting evil in God is an evil thing, and you don't deny your capacity or predisposition to do evil things, you know you need Jesus. But start to put goodness in man again, and you lessen more and more your need for Jesus' atoning work. This is why self-righteousness is one of the most serious sins.

I believe that the closer a person gets to God the MORE he feels sin in his life because of the great light that shines forth from God.
Those far from God may think their sins are not so bad...
but those close to God and know how holy He is must surely shrink in His presence.
A person that feels good...doesn't know God.

What would make a person reject inability? Inability is not divine determinism, it is simply an acknowledge of need for grace.

I would propose to you very strongly that the ONLY reason a person would want to reject inability is some claim to goodness in themselves, whether they want to really admit that or not, because why would anyone fight against exalting our need for grace, why would anyone fight against God's grace, it makes no sense.

It SOUNDS like you don't understand the inability of Calvinism...but I think you're too intelligent not to, so I'm confused.
Calvinism states that man is unable to seek God. THAT is the inability.
But the prevenient grace you spoke of before...supposes that we are free creatures and will be able to seek God once we know about Him.

And so, there is no evil in saying we are incapable without the grace of God.

Who ever thought the need for grace is evil?!!

Let them repent.

Oh... Agreed! We ARE incapable without the grace of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Couple of points to ponder brother.

Thanks for raising an important pastoral and exegetical concern regarding the “golden chain” of Romans 8:29–30. I fully agree that Paul’s intention here is to offer assurance to believers — that is, to “those who love God… who are called according to purpose” (τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν τὸν θεὸν… τοῖς κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς, Rom 8:28).

However, to assume that every link in the chain must apply with equal and exclusive identity to the exact same individuals without interpretive nuance overlooks both the syntax of the passage and wider Pauline theology.

Let’s examine it carefully---

1. The use of “οὓς” (those whom): grammatical consistency does not demand determinism
Each clause in Romans 8:29–30 begins with the relative pronoun οὓς (accusative masculine plural of ὅς), linking the actions of God to a group. Yes, this is a syntactical chain:
οὓς προέγνω → καὶ προώρισεν
οὓς δὲ προώρισεν → τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν
οὓς ἐκάλεσεν → τούτους καὶ ἐδικαίωσεν
οὓς δὲ ἐδικαίωσεν → τούτους καὶ ἐδόξασεν

But grammatical linkage does not establish exhaustive identity between every individual in each group. Paul is not defining the total scope of every person ever called, but tracing the divine work in the lives of the faithful remnant — i.e., those who are “in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1), those “led by the Spirit” (v.14), those who “suffer with Him that they may be glorified” (v.17). The context is pastoral, not systematic.

Calling (ἐκάλεσεν) must be interpreted contextually — not absolutized

The verb ἐκάλεσεν (aorist active indicative of καλέω) is used widely in Pauline literature, both for a general external call and for the effective summons to salvation. For example--

– In Romans 1:6, Paul speaks of “the called of Jesus Christ” -the believing community.
– But in Matthew 22:14, Jesus says, “Many are called (κλητοί), but few are chosen (ἐκλεκτοί).”

This distinction between the general invitation and actual response is consistent with Paul’s theology in Romans 10:21, where Israel is said to be “disobedient and obstinate,” though the Lord “stretched out His hands all day long.”

So, to insist that the calling in Romans 8:30 must be effective in every usage of the verb is an exegetical assumption, not a grammatical or contextual necessity.

Justification is always conditional on faith, never merely calling

Romans 5:1 states clearly: “Therefore, being justified by faith (δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως)...” - not by predestination, not by calling in and of itself.

The implication is that even among the called, only those who respond with faith are justified. Would you agree?

Your statement “no Greek word tense will convince me God justifies the uncalled” is understandable emotionally — but it misunderstands the order of grace in Romans-- the instrumental cause of justification is faith, not election.

The pastoral comfort lies in the trajectory, not in theological determinism

Paul’s pastoral intent is to affirm that God is faithful to bring those who truly love Him — and live by the Spirit (Rom 8:14) — all the way to glory.

It is not to describe an impersonal mechanism in which each verb applies to an invisible set without human participation.

In fact, Romans 11:22 explicitly warns: “Note then the kindness and the severity of God… if you continue in His kindness, otherwise you also will be cut off.”

This makes clear that participation in the process is not automatic, and that conditionality remains part of Paul’s framework, even within soteriology.

5. Cross-references to clarify: – 2 Thess 2:14: “He called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Here, the call comes through the gospel — and must be received. – Gal 5:4: “You have fallen from grace” — addressed to previously justified people.

– Heb 3:14: “We have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end.”

So while the calling of Romans 8:30 is certainly a divine initiative, it is not a mechanical predetermination.

Nor is the golden chain a universal soteriological template applied to all humanity without distinction or response. It is a doxological affirmation for those walking in the Spirit, encouraging perseverance- not extinguishing human will.

Amazingly--this verse comes to mind immediately-----Romans 5:8–9 (KJV)

Shalom.

J.

Great posts J !

 

[atpollard]

The use of “οὓς” (those whom): grammatical consistency does not demand determinism

You do know that I was not arguing DETERMINISM from Romans 8:30.

I was merely arguing that THAT SPECIFIC use of “calling” must be an “effectual calling” since the surrounding context (the ‘golden chain’) collapses if the calling in Romans 8:30 (between predestined and justified) is ineffectual.

I do not believe in strict HARD DETERMINISM (as in Supralapsarianism), since I hold to the more COMPATIBALIST view of SOFT DETERMINISM. If I were to defend my view of either IRRESISTIBLE GRACE or PREDESTINATION, I would not be focusing so hard on Romans 8:30 as there are far clearer verses to hang that theology on.

 

[Johann]

Great posts J !

Sono stanco, sorella, ma ti ringrazio per le parole di incoraggiamento. Finché posso lavorare al mio ritmo, tutta la gloria sia a Cristo Gesù.

Che tu possa avere una giornata benedetta.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is written in the Holy Scriptures:

Is. 46: 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 "Declaring the end from the beginning", and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God knows the End from the Beginning because in His Realm, the End has already happened. He knows the "End" of Every Life HE creates. He knew His Christ would be murdered (Slain) from the foundation of the world. He knew Israel would be enslaved by Egypt 400 years centuries before it happened. Not because HE made it happen, but because HE saw it happen, and declared it to Abraham.

Gen. 15: 13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

He knows the happenings of "The Last Great Day", another of God's feasts rejected by this world.

Ps. 90: 1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. 3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. 4 For "a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past", and as a watch in the night.

So given the biblical Truth that God knows the End from the Beginning, HE already knows who will "choose" Him and who will not. I don't know the end of my days, so I am instructed to "Live by Faith", to "Yield myself to God, and my body as instruments of God's Righteousness", to "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality" all the days of my life. That is the Prize I press towards, the goal of the race I am in.

And I am promised that if I "Endure to the End" of my life. If I "Continue in HIS GOODNESS", If I "Strive to Enter the Narrow Path Jesus Walked", if I am a "Doer" of the Christ's Sayings, and not a hearer only, I shall be saved. And all men who follow the Instructions of the Jesus "of the Bible", and "Live By" the Words of God, and not the words of all the "MANY" voices in the Garden God placed me in, "That Profess to know God", that Call Jesus Lord, Lord, I can have Faith that I have passed from Death into Life.

He "Foreknows" everyone. The entire History of this world is like a Globe in His Hand. He can see the End from the Beginning because in His Realm, the End has already happened. He lives outside the constraints of Time that we are subject to.

Can God be surprised about something that happens today, next week or a hundred years from now? Not the God "of the bible". He has already seen it before HE created this world.

He has made His judgments. He has made the rules. He has shown His Tender Mercies, and His Wrath and has promised the outcome of every man, according to His Deeds. And I "Believe Him".

He gave us a Law concerning His Messiah.

Duet. 18: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Is. 14: 24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

Are these things true? I have Faith that they are, and this is my Hope.

Rom. 8: 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

So it doesn't matter to me what the Calvinists teach, or the Bereans teach, or the Catholics teach, or any of this world's religious sects or businesses. I am going to "Live By" the "Love of God" that HE gave me through His Christ, the Jesus of the Bible. As Paul confirms in Romans 8.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from "the love of God", which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And how does the Spirit of Christ define the "Love of God"?

1 John 5: 1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him "that begat" loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For "this is the love of God", that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus "is the Son of God"?

Anyone who "Yield himself a servant to obey This God", is predestined to eternal life.

And I have Hope that my Faith in Him is not in vain.

What a well thought-out post !
Kuddos.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sono stanco, sorella, ma ti ringrazio per le parole di incoraggiamento. Finché posso lavorare al mio ritmo, tutta la gloria sia a Cristo Gesù.

Che tu possa avere una giornata benedetta.

J.

Continui a fare un buon lavoro per Dio!
Buona Pasqua a te e tua famiglia.

 

[atpollard]

But grammatical linkage does not establish exhaustive identity between every individual in each group.

I respectfully disagree. Given the clear verbal symmetry and cadence of Romans 8:30, the notion that the people foreknown and the people predestined and the people called and the people justified and the people glorified are not the same group of people, but different groups of people, seems nonsensical. I will NEVER be convinced Paul wrote so clear a chain and intended no linkage.

 

[Johann]

Continui a fare un buon lavoro per Dio!
Buona Pasqua a te e tua famiglia.

Anche tu, sorella, stai facendo un buon lavoro per Dio!
Buona Pasqua a te e alla tua famiglia.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

You do know that I was not arguing DETERMINISM from Romans 8:30.

I was merely arguing that THAT SPECIFIC use of “calling” must be an “effectual calling” since the surrounding context (the ‘golden chain’) collapses if the calling in Romans 8:30 (between predestined and justified) is ineffectual.

I do not believe in strict HARD DETERMINISM (as in Supralapsarianism), since I hold to the more COMPATIBALIST view of SOFT DETERMINISM. If I were to defend my view of either IRRESISTIBLE GRACE or PREDESTINATION, I would not be focusing so hard on Romans 8:30 as there are far clearer verses to hang that theology on.

I like the simple answers.....

Romans 8:30a
30AND WHOM HE PREDESTINED THESE HE ALSO CALLED
Strong's
CALLED
Strong's Lexicon
kaleó: To call, to name, to invite
Original Word: καλέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kaleó
Pronunciation: kä-le'-ō
Phonetic Spelling: (kal-eh'-o)
Definition: To call, to name, to invite
Meaning: (a) I call, summon, invite, (b) I call, name.


I know John wants to come to my party.....
I invite John. I call John.

Those He foreknew He also predestined....
for what?
To be conformed to the image of His Son...

It's always the METHOD or the PURPOSE that is predestined...never the person.

Notice that Romans 8:30 is speaking of THOSE being glorified in the past tense.
Might the group of persons being discussed be of a totally different group?
Some theologians believe so,,,but I'm not well-versed sufficiently to discuss.

 

[Johann]

I respectfully disagree. Given the clear verbal symmetry and cadence of Romans 8:30, the notion that the people foreknown and the people predestined and the people called and the people justified and the people glorified are not the same group of people, but different groups of people, seems nonsensical. I will NEVER be convinced Paul wrote so clear a chain and intended no linkage.

Let's start with this--

If Paul meant to say that all who are called are always justified, then this would contradict--

Acts 7:51 – “You stiff-necked people... you always resist the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 13:34 – “How often I wanted to gather your children... and you were not willing.”

Matthew 22:3–14 – Many are invited (called) but do not respond.

So the biblical theology of “calling” includes:

External call (the gospel preached),

Internal call (conviction and drawing by the Spirit),

[and even effectual call (a Reformed inference, not an exegetical category]

--and take it from here. Which calling are you referring to?

J.

 

[Johann]

Notice that Romans 8:30 is speaking of THOSE being glorified in the past tense.
Might the group of persons being discussed be of a totally different group?
Some theologians believe so,,,but I'm not well-versed sufficiently to discuss.

@Dizerner-could you please give a hand? This is a deep dive in Romans 8 and would appreciate your input.

I am emphasizing that the ultimate goal of Romans 8:29-30 is to assure believers that God has a single, unbroken plan for salvation: predestination, calling, justification, and glorification. These stages are inseparable in God's plan.

However, the calling in this context could be understood as effectual for those who believe (those "whom He foreknew"). And while we can observe a theological distinction in the types of callings (general vs. effectual), the focus here is on the certainty of the believer's journey through each stage of God's sovereign plan.

I also believe we should study this--

Ephesians 1:4-5 – God’s plan for believers is eternal:

“Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love, He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ.”

This passage affirms the unbroken relationship between foreknowledge, predestination, and adoption-all of which apply to believers.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 – God’s purpose for believers is salvific and secure:

“For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This highlights that God’s predestination for believers is toward salvation, not to some arbitrary or broken group.

2 Timothy 1:9 – Salvation is part of God's eternal purpose:

“who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of His own purpose and grace, which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.”

This reinforces the idea that the calling, justification, and glorification of believers is grounded in God’s eternal purpose.

And take note of Grammar and Syntax--

Explanation of the Aorist Tense in Koine Greek

The aorist indicative typically indicates a completed action in past time. However, in Koine Greek—and especially in biblical contexts—there are cases where the aorist is used proleptically (also called a "proleptic aorist" or "prophetic aorist"). This is when a future event is so certain in the mind of the speaker that it is described using past-tense grammar.

This usage does not mean the event has already occurred temporally; rather:
It reflects the certainty and finality of God’s purpose.

It presents eschatological events (like glorification) as already accomplished in God’s sovereign plan.

So why Does Paul Use the Aorist for “Glorified”?
The use of ἐδόξασεν (He glorified)—even though glorification is future for us--

Paul expresses the certainty of glorification as an already-completed event in God’s redemptive plan.
The sequence is unbroken—those whom God foreknew are the same ones He predestined, called, justified, and yes, glorified.

Syntactic Unity: “οὓς...τούτους καί”
Paul uses the grammatical structure “οὓς...τούτους καί” (“those whom...these also”) repeatedly. This symmetrical formula--

Links each group directly and inseparably to the next.

Demonstrates that the same group is in view at each step.

Forms a tightly interwoven logical chain (ordo salutis, “order of salvation”).

And yes, there is a debate "on which group" in Romans 8




Future Glory
Rom 8:18 For I count that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed unto us.
Rom 8:19 For the anxious looking with outstretched head of the creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 (For the creation was made to submit itself to disappointing misery, not willingly, but because of Him Who hath submitted Himself the same ) waiteth, I say in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creation itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption [ruin] into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation is groaning together and travails in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the gifts of the Holy Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the sonship, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we were saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he hope for also ?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we through patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise THE Holy Spirit Himself also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but THE Holy Spirit Himself maketh intercession ... with groanings unutterable.
Rom 8:27 But He [THE Holy Spirit] That searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of THE Spirit Himself, because He [THE Holy Spirit] maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 But we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose .
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew He foreordained also [purposed beforehand] to be conformed to the image of His Son, unto His being the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 But whom He did foreordain, them He called also: and whom He called, them He justified also: and whom He justified, them He glorified also.
God's Everlasting Love
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring charges [call to judicial account] against God's elect? Shall God Who justifies them?
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? Shall Christ That died, yea rather, That is risen again, Who is also at the right hand of God, Who intercedes also for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation [trials], or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril [danger], or sword?
Rom 8:36 Even as it is written, On Thine account we are killed all the day long; we are considered as sheep of slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him That loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Coffee time

J.

 

[Johann]

It's always the METHOD or the PURPOSE that is predestined...never the person.

Would you be willing to reconsider this?

Supporting Examples: Person, Not Merely Purpose

1. Ephesians 1:5
“He predestined us (ἡμᾶς) to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.”

The direct object of προορίσας (having predestined) is ἡμᾶς—first person plural pronoun, not a method or abstract concept.

This shows individuals, not merely the plan, are in view.

2. Acts 13:48
“...as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”

The verb τεταγμένοι (perfect passive participle of τάσσω) refers to persons—those who were "appointed" or "set in order" for life.

3. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
“God chose you from the beginning for salvation...”

The verb εἵλατο (“He chose”) has ὑμᾶς (you) as its direct object, again indicating persons.

So What About Purpose?
It’s true that God’s purpose is often connected to His foreknowledge and predestination (cf. Romans 8:28, “to those who are called according to His purpose”). But that doesn't exclude persons—rather, it tells us why He called them.

Purpose explains the goal of the action, not the identity of its recipients.

God’s eternal purpose works through the predestining of individuals, not abstract methods alone.

To Say “Never the Person” Is Unfounded

Let’s be fair to the text. Saying “God never predestines persons” is not only grammatically indefensible, it also undermines the very encouragement Paul offers in Romans 8:28–30: the assurance that God is working all things for the good of those who love Him, whom He foreknew and predestined.

Paul’s point is not abstract. It's intensely pastoral: You, believer, are known, chosen, called, justified, and will be glorified.

J.

 

[Johann]

I respectfully disagree. Given the clear verbal symmetry and cadence of Romans 8:30, the notion that the people foreknown and the people predestined and the people called and the people justified and the people glorified are not the same group of people, but different groups of people, seems nonsensical. I will NEVER be convinced Paul wrote so clear a chain and intended no linkage.

Right, let's run with this and say they ARE the same group-what's next?

J.

 

[Studyman]

Would you be willing to reconsider this?

Supporting Examples: Person, Not Merely Purpose

1. Ephesians 1:5
“He predestined us (ἡμᾶς) to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.”

The direct object of προορίσας (having predestined) is ἡμᾶς—first person plural pronoun, not a method or abstract concept.

This shows individuals, not merely the plan, are in view.

2. Acts 13:48
“...as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”

The verb τεταγμένοι (perfect passive participle of τάσσω) refers to persons—those who were "appointed" or "set in order" for life.

3. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
“God chose you from the beginning for salvation...”

The verb εἵλατο (“He chose”) has ὑμᾶς (you) as its direct object, again indicating persons.

So What About Purpose?
It’s true that God’s purpose is often connected to His foreknowledge and predestination (cf. Romans 8:28, “to those who are called according to His purpose”). But that doesn't exclude persons—rather, it tells us why He called them.

Purpose explains the goal of the action, not the identity of its recipients.

God’s eternal purpose works through the predestining of individuals, not abstract methods alone.

To Say “Never the Person” Is Unfounded

Let’s be fair to the text. Saying “God never predestines persons” is not only grammatically indefensible, it also undermines the very encouragement Paul offers in Romans 8:28–30: the assurance that God is working all things for the good of those who love Him, whom He foreknew and predestined.

Paul’s point is not abstract. It's intensely pastoral: You, believer, are known, chosen, called, justified, and will be glorified.

J.

Well said Johann,

A significant truth about God, in my view. His entire program was created for the cleansing and preservation of men, not the preservation of the purpose.

Duet. 4: 39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. 40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.