Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

[Johann]

You think I spend my time watching L flowers??
That's funny.

Maybe it's just that the truth is the truth.

Here is a site I would most definitely peruse-Precept Austin

Dragged (1670)(helko ) means to drag or draw toward without necessarily the notion of force as in súrō. Of course that distinction seems to break down in the current passage (Acts 21:30) where undoubtedly there is force exert on dragging Paul's body. This is Luke's second use to describe Paul being dragged - " But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized (epilambano as here in Acts 21:30) Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities," (Acts 16:19+).

W E Vine on helko - to draw," differs from syrō, as "drawing" does from violent "dragging." It is used of "drawing" a net, John 21:6, 11 (cp. suro in Jn 21: 8); Trench remarks (see below) "At Jn 21:6 and Jn 21:11 helkō (or helkyō) is used; for there a drawing of the net to a certain point is intended; by the disciples to themselves in the ship, by Peter to himself upon the shore. But at Jn 21:8 helkō gives place to syrō: for nothing is there intended but the dragging of the net, which had been fastened to the ship, after it through the water" (Trench's Syn). This less violent significance, usually present in helkō, but always absent from syrō, is seen in the metaphorical use of helkō, to signify "drawing" by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; John 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., Song of Sol. Song 1:4; Jer. 31:3, "with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." It is used of a more vigorous action, in John 18:10, of "drawing" a sword; in Acts 16:19; Acts 21:30, of forcibly "drawing" men to or from a place; so in Jas. 2:6.

Helko - 8v - drag(1), dragged(2), draw(1), draws(1), drew(2), haul(1). - Jn. 6:44; Jn. 12:32; Jn. 18:10; Jn. 21:6; Jn. 21:11; Acts 16:19; Acts 21:30; Jas. 2:6

Trench on drag - suro/syro(4951) Drag helkyo (Strong's 1670) Draw

The difference between syro and helkyo is theologically important and is best expressed in English by translating syrein as "to drag" and helkyein as "to draw." The notion of force is always present in syrein. Thus Plutarch spoke of the headlong course of a river "as dragging [syron] and carrying along everything." Consequently, where persons and not things are in question, syrein involves the notion of violence. Although the notion of force or violence may be present in helkyein, it is not necessarily so, any more than the English draw, when used to refer to mental and moral attraction, necessarily implies the use of force.

Only by keeping these differences in mind can we correct the erroneous interpretation of two doctrinally important passages in the Gospel of John. The first is John 12:32 : "I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples [pantas helkyso] to myself." But how does a crucified and exalted Savior draw all people to himself? Certainly not by force, for the will is incapable of force, but by the divine attractions of his love. In John 6:44 Jesus said: "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him [helkyse auton]. "

Those who deny theories of "irresistible grace" that portray men as machines that are dragged to God must assert that helkyse refers only to the drawing power of love, to the Father's attracting men to the Son. Had syrein been used in either of these Johannine texts, then those who believe that "irresistible grace" means forcing someone to believe against his or her will might argue that Jesus' declarations leave no room for any other interpretation than theirs. But syrein was not used in these passages.

More specifically, helkyein predominantly refers to drawing someone or something to a certain point; syrein refers to dragging something after oneself. Thus Lucian, in comparing a man to a fish that has been hooked and dragged through the water, described him as "being dragged [syromenon] and led by necessity." Frequently, syrein refers to something that is dragged or trailed on the ground, quite apart from its own will, such as a dead body. To confirm this, compare John 21:6; John 21:11 with John 21:8 of the same chapter. In John 21:6 and John 21:11, helkyein refers to drawing the net full of fish to a certain point on the ship and to drawing the net to the land. But in John 21:8, where the disciples drag the net full of fish behind them through the water, syrein, not helkyein, is used. The Authorized Version maintains this distinction, as does De Wette's German translation. Neither the Vulgate nor Beza, however, distinguish the two words, which they translate by traho (draw)

A deep dive into Hebrew and Greek word studies.

Philippians 2:13 Commentary | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

J.

 

[atpollard]

The bible was written as it was written by the author of the particular gospel or letter.
We cannot, today, try to fix what they stated, but only accept what they stated.

So, let's look at the word DRAW.

I'm using Strong's.

John 12:32 I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO MYSELF.
Strong's no. 1670
HELKYSE'

John 6:44 NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER DRAW HIM
Strong's no. 1670
HELKYSE'

The same word is used in both instances.

If we're going to accept 1670 in John 6:44 ....THE FATHER WILL DRAW,,,EFFICATIOUSLY

Then we also have to accept that John 12:32 ...JESUS WILL DRAW...EFFICATOUSLY
in which case all of humanity will be saved. This is not true....

So..there are other factors at play.

1. The Father draws all men to Himself,,,,by grace.
Romans 1:18-20 God has always made Himself be known through the creation so that no man will be without excuse.

2. God desires that all men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4 God desires that all men be saved.

Draw means:


vb (draws, drawing, drew, drawn)

1. to cause (a person or thing) to move towards or away by pulling
2. to bring, take, or pull (something) out, as from a drawer, holster, etc
3. (transitive) to extract or pull or take out: to draw teeth, to draw a card from a pack
4. (transitive) often followed by off: to take (liquid) out of a cask, keg, tank, etc, by means of a tap
5. (intransitive) to move, go, or proceed, esp in a specified direction: to draw alongside
6. (transitive) to attract or elicit: to draw a crowd, draw attention
7. (transitive) to cause to flow: to draw blood
8. to depict or sketch (a form, figure, picture, etc) in lines, as with a pencil or pen, esp without the use of colour; delineate
9. (transitive) to make, formulate, or derive: to draw conclusions, comparisons, parallels
10. (transitive) to write (a legal document) in proper form

source: https://www.wordreference.com/definition/draw


I propose, for the above stated reasons, in green, that DRAW in both John 6:44 and John 12:32 means TO ATTRACT.



John 12:32 states ALL MEN and ALL PEOPLE and EVERYONE

New International Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

New Living Translation
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

English Standard Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Berean Standard Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

Berean Literal Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

King James Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

New King James Version
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

New American Standard Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.”

NASB 1995
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

NASB 1977
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Legacy Standard Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Amplified Bible
And I, if and when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw all people to Myself [Gentiles, as well as Jews].”

Christian Standard Bible
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to myself.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to Myself.”

American Standard Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

Contemporary English Version
If I am lifted up above the earth, I will make everyone want to come to me."

English Revised Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
When I have been lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people toward me."

Good News Translation
When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me." (

International Standard Version
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself."

NET Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

New Heart English Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to myself."

Webster's Bible Translation
And I, if I shall be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.

Weymouth New Testament
And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

World English Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Berean Literal Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

Young's Literal Translation
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'

Smith's Literal Translation
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And when I have been lifted up from the earth, I will draw all things to myself.”

New American Bible
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

New Revised Standard Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw every man to me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.

Godbey New Testament
And if I may be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men towards me.

Haweis New Testament
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Mace New Testament
as for me, when I shall be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me.

Weymouth New Testament
And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."

Worrell New Testament
and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Worsley New Testament
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, shall draw all men unto me.


I propose that the word is MEN or ALL PEOPLE TO MYSELF for the above stated reasons...in green.



Please post Psalm 22. I don't see the connection.
If we want to use the OT, we can consider
John 3:14-15
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.



OK. I see your point.
I just cannot agree.
We're discussing the word DRAW.
It's accepted theology that Jesus broke down the wall between Jews and Gentiles.

Reformed theology also believes that THE WORLD means persons of every nation, tribe, etc.
It simply means THE WORLD. FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.

Just as John 6:32 and John 6:44 have specific meanings.

The Father attracts everyone to Himself.
Those that choose to believe, the Father will give to the Savior.
John 20:21
But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Our reward is salvation in Jesus.
The Father gives the sheep to Jesus,,,the Shepherd.
The doorkeeper.

Done above.

The proof of what Jesus intended in John 12:32 is the final result that was accomplished in Revelation 5:9-10 as described by God in Psalm 22:27-28.

 

[Johann]

I think in Romans 8:30 it is safe to say that THAT “call” must have been effectual since those same “those” who are “called” are ultimately “justified” and “glorified”. If God is “justifying” and “glorifying” people who were NOT EFFECTUALLY “called”, then a LOT of theology and scripture needs to be adjusted.

My rebuttal.

Response to Romans 8:30 and the Claim of Effectual Calling

Some have argued that Romans 8:30 proves the “call” of God must be effectual—i.e., irresistible—because “those whom He called, He also justified.” But the argument overreads Paul’s syntax and ignores the broader biblical and lexical usage of the verb καλέω (kaleō, "to call").

Greek Structure of Romans 8:30
Text:
οὓς δὲ προώρισεν (proōrisen, “He foreordained”), τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν (ekalesen, “He called”);
καὶ οὓς ἐκάλεσεν, τούτους καὶ ἐδικαίωσεν (edikaiōsen, “He justified”);
οὓς δὲ ἐδικαίωσεν, τούτους καὶ ἐδόξασεν (edoxasen, “He glorified”).

Each verb is in the aorist active indicative, expressing completed action but not specifying mechanism or effectual cause. The syntax shows sequence and identity—not coercion or inevitability. The passage is descriptive, not prescriptive or mechanistic.

Does “Call” (καλέω) Always Mean “Irresistible”?
No. In fact, the verb καλέω (to call, summon, invite) appears repeatedly in the NT and often refers to a summons that can be rejected.

Matthew 22:14: “Many are called (κλητοί, klētoi), but few are chosen (ἐκλεκτοί, eklektoi).”
→ The called are not the elect; not all called respond positively.

Luke 14:16–24: The master ἐκάλεσεν (“called/invited”) many to the banquet, but they declined. The calling was real—but not irresistible.

Acts 2:39: “The promise is to you...and to all whom the Lord our God will call (προσκαλέσηται).”
→ Again, this calling is associated with the offer of salvation, not a secret compulsion.

Even Paul distinguishes between general and responsive calling. For example:

2 Thessalonians 2:14: εἰς ὃ καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὑμᾶς διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου — “He called you through our gospel.”
→ The means of calling is the gospel proclamation (διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου), which people may receive or reject (cf. Acts 17:32–34).

Lexical Note on “Call”
The Greek lexeme καλέω (Strong’s G2564) means:

“To call aloud, to summon”

“To invite” (cf. BDAG, LSJ)

Contextually: to offer participation, not to coerce

It is never lexically defined as “cause to come irresistibly.” That is a theological overlay, not a lexical or syntactical conclusion.

Romans 8:30 Is Not a Definition of Calling—It’s a Statement of Assurance
Romans 8:30 is written to believers already in Christ (cf. Rom 8:28). It does not explain why others reject the call, only that those who received it and believed were also justified and will be glorified. The verse does not claim that all who are called are necessarily justified—only that the group under discussion (those who love God and are walking in His purpose) went through these stages.

Aorist Verbs and Completed Action
ἐκάλεσεν (He called) – aorist active indicative of καλέω

ἐδικαίωσεν (He justified) – aorist active indicative of δικαιόω

ἐδόξασεν (He glorified) – aorist active indicative of δοξάζω

All are past tense actions from God’s perspective—intended for assurance—not for defining the mechanics of conversion.

Cross-Reference with John 12:32
Jesus says: “And I, if I be lifted up, will draw (ἑλκύσω, helkysō) all men to Myself.”
→ This term ἑλκύω can mean to draw, attract, or woo (cf. Jeremiah 31:3 LXX: ἐν ἀγάπῃ εἵλκυσα σε – “With love I drew you”), not force or drag. If draw were irresistible, then all men would be saved (which contradicts Scripture).


Romans 8:30 presents a sequence of redemptive acts in the lives of believers—but it does not say that everyone who is called is irresistibly justified. Nor does it redefine καλέω against its natural usage in Jesus’ teachings and Paul’s own letters. Rather, it affirms that those who responded in faith (cf. Romans 10:17) and were justified will ultimately be glorified. The “call” is real and gracious—but not coercive.

Your turn @atpollard

J.

 

[atpollard]

The BIBLICAL definition of DRAW [G1670]:

John 6:44 [ESV] 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

• Strong’s: ἑλκύω helkýō, hel-koo'-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively)
• Merriam-Webster: to cause to move continuously toward or after a force applied in advance; to move (something, such as a covering) over or to one side; to cause to go in a certain direction (as by leading); to bring by inducement or allure.
• I propose that DRAW in this verse means the normal GREEK and ENGLISH definition of the word.
• Based on the normal meaning, the verse makes the claim that no person is able to come to Jesus unless God the Father DRAGS (causes the movement) towards Jesus. This would be a logical follow up to the immediately prior claim from Jesus to “stop complaining” made to those that were not accepting Jesus words.
• Examining the proposed alternative “INVITE” as a definition for “DRAW”, the verse makes the claim that no person is able to come to Jesus unless God the Father INVITES them to follow Jesus. Who is it you propose was not invited by God to follow Jesus? If EVERYONE is invited by God to follow Jesus, then what possible meaning is there in Jesus now “nonsensical” statement? How does that nonsensical statement that “nobody can come to Jesus except the everybody that the Father has invited to come to Jesus” logically follow Jesus statement to “stop complaining”?

John 12:32 [ESV] 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

• The proof of what Jesus intended in John 12:32 is the final result that was accomplished in Revelation 5:9-10 as described by God in Psalm 22:27-28.
• Draw does mean draw (drag or coerce).
• God does draw to himself a people from every nation, tribe, people and tongue … all people without distinction.

John 18:10 [ESV] 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)

• Same word in a far more common situation. Peter DREW his sword. The sword came out of its sheath. The DRAW was effective.
• If the draw had been “invite” and been ineffective and the sword had chosen to stay in the sheath … would Peter have actually “DRAWN” the sword? No. To be drawn, the action must be effective.

John 21:6, 11 [ESV] 6 He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quantity of fish. ... 11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn.

• In verse 6, the they were NOT able to “haul” the net into the boat, so was that DRAW used as “invite” with an answer of “No.” … No it was not. Verse 6 says they were NOT ABLE TO HAUL IT. It specifically states that the DRAW was a failure. They attempted a DRAW but achieved a NOT DRAW because the net did not come.
• In verse 11, the DRAW was a DRAW because the net came. There is no “invite”, there is only compelled action.

Acts 16:19 [ESV] 19 But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.

• Was Paul “invited” to accompany the crowd? Could they have exercised their free will and graciously declined the generous offer? No. They were DRAGGED by force. DRAW means DRAG and is only a DRAW if the object of the DRAW comes.

Acts 21:30 [ESV] 30 Then all the city was stirred up, and the people ran together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut.

• Paul was given the same “invitation”. He was DRAWN (dragged) out of the temple. There was no choice. DRAW is only a DRAW if the object of the DRAW comes.

James 2:6 [ESV] 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?

• When the poor are oppressed, they are not “invited” to court. They have no more choice than Paul or the Sword or the Net had in the matter. A DRAW is only a DRAW if it is effective.

THIS is how the BIBLE uses the word DRAW. Redefine scripture at your own risk.

 

[atpollard]

Romans 8:30 presents a sequence of redemptive acts in the lives of believers—but it does not say that everyone who is called is irresistibly justified. Nor does it redefine καλέω against its natural usage in Jesus’ teachings and Paul’s own letters. Rather, it affirms that those who responded in faith (cf. Romans 10:17) and were justified will ultimately be glorified. The “call” is real and gracious—but not coercive.

Your turn @atpollard

Romans 8:30 [ESV] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Who are “those” [G3778]?

 

[Johann]

The BIBLICAL definition of DRAW [G1670]:

John 6:44 [ESV] 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

• Strong’s: ἑλκύω helkýō, hel-koo'-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively)
• Merriam-Webster: to cause to move continuously toward or after a force applied in advance; to move (something, such as a covering) over or to one side; to cause to go in a certain direction (as by leading); to bring by inducement or allure.
• I propose that DRAW in this verse means the normal GREEK and ENGLISH definition of the word.
• Based on the normal meaning, the verse makes the claim that no person is able to come to Jesus unless God the Father DRAGS (causes the movement) towards Jesus. This would be a logical follow up to the immediately prior claim from Jesus to “stop complaining” made to those that were not accepting Jesus words.
• Examining the proposed alternative “INVITE” as a definition for “DRAW”, the verse makes the claim that no person is able to come to Jesus unless God the Father INVITES them to follow Jesus. Who is it you propose was not invited by God to follow Jesus? If EVERYONE is invited by God to follow Jesus, then what possible meaning is there in Jesus now “nonsensical” statement? How does that nonsensical statement that “nobody can come to Jesus except the everybody that the Father has invited to come to Jesus” logically follow Jesus statement to “stop complaining”?

John 12:32 [ESV] 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

• The proof of what Jesus intended in John 12:32 is the final result that was accomplished in Revelation 5:9-10 as described by God in Psalm 22:27-28.
• Draw does mean draw (drag or coerce).
• God does draw to himself a people from every nation, tribe, people and tongue … all people without distinction.

John 18:10 [ESV] 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)

• Same word in a far more common situation. Peter DREW his sword. The sword came out of its sheath. The DRAW was effective.
• If the draw had been “invite” and been ineffective and the sword had chosen to stay in the sheath … would Peter have actually “DRAWN” the sword? No. To be drawn, the action must be effective.

John 21:6, 11 [ESV] 6 He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quantity of fish. ... 11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn.

• In verse 6, the they were NOT able to “haul” the net into the boat, so was that DRAW used as “invite” with an answer of “No.” … No it was not. Verse 6 says they were NOT ABLE TO HAUL IT. It specifically states that the DRAW was a failure. They attempted a DRAW but achieved a NOT DRAW because the net did not come.
• In verse 11, the DRAW was a DRAW because the net came. There is no “invite”, there is only compelled action.

Acts 16:19 [ESV] 19 But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.

• Was Paul “invited” to accompany the crowd? Could they have exercised their free will and graciously declined the generous offer? No. They were DRAGGED by force. DRAW means DRAG and is only a DRAW if the object of the DRAW comes.

Acts 21:30 [ESV] 30 Then all the city was stirred up, and the people ran together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut.

• Paul was given the same “invitation”. He was DRAWN (dragged) out of the temple. There was no choice. DRAW is only a DRAW if the object of the DRAW comes.

James 2:6 [ESV] 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?

• When the poor are oppressed, they are not “invited” to court. They have no more choice than Paul or the Sword or the Net had in the matter. A DRAW is only a DRAW if it is effective.

THIS is how the BIBLE uses the word DRAW. Redefine scripture at your own risk.

You do realize there are different Greek and Hebrew words for invite, invitation, call, called which has nothing to do with coercion brother. These are the paradoxes I'm referring to.

J.

 

[Johann]

Romans 8:30 [ESV] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Who are “those” [G3778]?

In Romans 8:30, the repeated use of "those" in English corresponds to the demonstrative pronoun οὓς (from Greek ὅς, Strong's G3739), not οὗτος (G3778).

Greek Grammar and Morphology
οὓς – accusative masculine plural of the relative pronoun ὅς (G3739)

It functions relatively, not demonstratively. That is, it refers back to a previously defined or understood group—not pointing freshly to a group as a demonstrative would.

So the construction is:

οὓς δὲ προώρισεν, τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν
"And those whom He foreknew, He also called..."

Meaning of the Relative Pronoun οὓς
This pronoun connects the successive clauses in Romans 8:30 and emphasizes identical referents throughout the chain:

The same οὓς who were predestined are also the ones who are called.

The same οὓς who are called are justified.

The same οὓς who are justified are glorified.

It does not define who they are in content—it only traces the continuity of the same group through each stage. Correct me if I'm wrong here--

So Who Are “Those”?
Paul is describing a group already referenced in the previous verse (Romans 8:29):

“For those whom He foreknew (ὅτι οὓς προέγνω) He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son…”

Thus, the “οὓς” in v.30 refers back to the οὓς προέγνω in v.29—i.e., those whom God foreknew (προέγνω, aorist active indicative of προγινώσκω), not an abstract or universal humanity. The scope of this “chain” is limited to that particular group, not all people, and not all who hear the gospel call.


The Greek word is οὓς (G3739), a relative pronoun, not G3778 (“οὗτοι” or “οὗτος” – a demonstrative).

It simply connects the people God foreknew with the acts of calling, justifying, and glorifying.

It describes continuity, not scope, and is grammatically bounded to the antecedent in v.29.

The identity of “those” is not every person indiscriminately, but the group foreknown by God—whether this foreknowledge is conditional (based on faith) or unconditional is a theological question, not a grammatical one.
Called (ekalesen)
- Justified (edikaiōsen)
- Glorified (edoxasen). All first aorist active indicatives of common verbs (kaleō, dikaioō, doxazō). But the glorification is stated as already consummated (constative aorists, all of them), though still in the future in the fullest sense. “The step implied in edoxasen is both complete and certain in the Divine counsels” (Sanday and Headlam).
Robertson


Rom_8:29-30 The verbs in these verses are all aorist active indicatives. They form a chain from before time until time is no more. God knows us and is still for us and wants us to be with Him. This is a corporate, not individual, context. The final act of glorification is still future, but in this context it is stated as an accomplished event.
Utley

J.

 

[atpollard]

You do realize there are different Greek and Hebrew words for invite, invitation, call, called which has nothing to do with coercion brother. These are the paradoxes I'm referring to.

J.

Yes, but all THOSE verses used the same word [G1670] and no other verses use [G1670].
My argument is not that ALL ACTIONS BY GOD are an IRRESISTIBLE DRAW. My argument is that both John 6:44 and John 12:32 are a DRAW that are no more optional than the Sword, the Net or Paul in the hands of the crowd.

 

[atpollard]

In Romans 8:30, the repeated use of "those" in English corresponds to the demonstrative pronoun οὓς (from Greek ὅς, Strong's G3739), not οὗτος (G3778).

Greek Grammar and Morphology
οὓς – accusative masculine plural of the relative pronoun ὅς (G3739)

It functions relatively, not demonstratively. That is, it refers back to a previously defined or understood group—not pointing freshly to a group as a demonstrative would.

So the construction is:

οὓς δὲ προώρισεν, τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν
"And those whom He foreknew, He also called..."

Meaning of the Relative Pronoun οὓς
This pronoun connects the successive clauses in Romans 8:30 and emphasizes identical referents throughout the chain:

The same οὓς who were predestined are also the ones who are called.

The same οὓς who are called are justified.

The same οὓς who are justified are glorified.

It does not define who they are in content—it only traces the continuity of the same group through each stage. Correct me if I'm wrong here--

So Who Are “Those”?
Paul is describing a group already referenced in the previous verse (Romans 8:29):

“For those whom He foreknew (ὅτι οὓς προέγνω) He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son…”

Thus, the “οὓς” in v.30 refers back to the οὓς προέγνω in v.29—i.e., those whom God foreknew (προέγνω, aorist active indicative of προγινώσκω), not an abstract or universal humanity. The scope of this “chain” is limited to that particular group, not all people, and not all who hear the gospel call.


The Greek word is οὓς (G3739), a relative pronoun, not G3778 (“οὗτοι” or “οὗτος” – a demonstrative).

It simply connects the people God foreknew with the acts of calling, justifying, and glorifying.

It describes continuity, not scope, and is grammatically bounded to the antecedent in v.29.

The identity of “those” is not every person indiscriminately, but the group foreknown by God—whether this foreknowledge is conditional (based on faith) or unconditional is a theological question, not a grammatical one.
Called (ekalesen)
- Justified (edikaiōsen)
- Glorified (edoxasen). All first aorist active indicatives of common verbs (kaleō, dikaioō, doxazō). But the glorification is stated as already consummated (constative aorists, all of them), though still in the future in the fullest sense. “The step implied in edoxasen is both complete and certain in the Divine counsels” (Sanday and Headlam).
Robertson


Rom_8:29-30 The verbs in these verses are all aorist active indicatives. They form a chain from before time until time is no more. God knows us and is still for us and wants us to be with Him. This is a corporate, not individual, context. The final act of glorification is still future, but in this context it is stated as an accomplished event.
Utley

J.

What I see as important is a series of questions about the chain.

You were challenging whether the CALLED must be effective in Romans 8:30.

There are only two possibilities given … Romans 8:30 [ESV] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those Whom he justified he also glorified.

• All those PREDESTINED were also CALLED.
• NOT all of those PREDESTINED were CALLED.

• All those CALLED were also JUSTIFIED.
• NOT all those CALLED were JUSTIFIED.

If ALL those called were also JUSTIFIED, then the Calling was clearly ONLY effective.
If NOT ALL of those called were JUSTIFIED, then the calling was clearly NOT effective.

If the calling was NOT EFFECTIVE because an individual was CALLED but NOT JUSTIFIED, then taking a step back, what does it mean to be PREDESTINED to be CALLED and NOT JUSTIFIED?

Are we really prepared to embrace that version of radical Supralapsarianism?
God predestined someone to be the bad soil?

No, I think it is far clearer that Romans 8:29-30 is speaking of ONE GROUP … “those” … for whom every step GOD will do (as the verses say). Therefore, the fact that “those” are “predestined, justified and glorified” means that when they are “called” (in THIS VERSE) that call MUST be effective. The alternatives

• God predestining some to an ineffectual call (Supralapsarianism) [some are lost at each step]
• God justifying and glorifying without an effective call. [some are gained at each step]

Are contra-biblical to the preponderance of scripture.

 

[Johann]

What I see as important is a series of questions about the chain.

You were challenging whether the CALLED must be effective in Romans 8:30.

There are only two possibilities given … Romans 8:30 [ESV] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those Whom he justified he also glorified.

• All those PREDESTINED were also CALLED.
• NOT all of those PREDESTINED were CALLED.

• All those CALLED were also JUSTIFIED.
• NOT all those CALLED were JUSTIFIED.

If ALL those called were also JUSTIFIED, then the Calling was clearly ONLY effective.
If NOT ALL of those called were JUSTIFIED, then the calling was clearly NOT effective.

If the calling was NOT EFFECTIVE because an individual was CALLED but NOT JUSTIFIED, then taking a step back, what does it mean to be PREDESTINED to be CALLED and NOT JUSTIFIED?

Are we really prepared to embrace that version of radical Supralapsarianism?
God predestined someone to be the bad soil?

No, I think it is far clearer that Romans 8:29-30 is speaking of ONE GROUP … “those” … for whom every step GOD will do (as the verses say). Therefore, the fact that “those” are “predestined, justified and glorified” means that when they are “called” (in THIS VERSE) that call MUST be effective. The alternatives

• God predestining some to an ineffectual call (Supralapsarianism) [some are lost at each step]
• God justifying and glorifying without an effective call. [some are gained at each step]

Are contra-biblical to the preponderance of scripture.

04.14 AM in the morning here brother and unable to think clearly.

J.

 

[atpollard]

Rom_8:29-30 The verbs in these verses are all aorist active indicatives. They form a chain from before time until time is no more. God knows us and is still for us and wants us to be with Him. This is a corporate, not individual, context. The final act of glorification is still future, but in this context it is stated as an accomplished event.

I respectfully disagree.
Foreknew is a relational context. God did not know ABOUT us, God KNEW us (relationally).
That does not describe a “corporate” salvation.

 

[atpollard]

04.14 AM in the morning here brother and unable to think clearly.

J.

Then see you in the morning (10 PM here)

 

[Dizerner]

Foreknew is a relational context. God did not know ABOUT us, God KNEW us (relationally).

This is actually false, we didn't even exist to relationally know. Acts 26 might be used for the "relationally previously knew." But Paul says "ALL the Jews knew beforehand," so contextually it makes more sense that the Jews simply knew information about him previously, not relationally. Romans 11 is another you could attempt to use as "relationally previously knew." But again it doesn't fit the context. Paul is talking about CURRENT day Jews not being cast away, that is the subject of the foreknowing. The verse in 1 Peter does not fit the context of "relationally previously knew" either, because it contrasts the "knowing before" with the current day manifesting, so he is contrasting knowledge with experience, not comparing them. In fact the KJV translators felt so sure of this they translated it "foreordained" instead of "foreknew," which although less accurate, shows they understood the context. The last verse in 2 Peter clearly is just informationally knowing beforehand. There are three uses in the Greek OT in Wisdom of Solomon. Two clearly speak of simply knowing something beforehand. The third (6:13) could possibly be interpreted as "relationally previously knew," but I don't think it fits the context. It just says Wisdom "makes herself known beforehand" to the person that seeks her. So really, this whole lovingly relating to people before they even exist is just a Calvinist defense mechanism to protect their theology, it is not an honest inquiry into what foreknown really most often means, which simply means, to know beforehand.

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is a site I would most definitely peruse-Precept Austin

Dragged (1670)(helko ) means to drag or draw toward without necessarily the notion of force as in súrō. Of course that distinction seems to break down in the current passage (Acts 21:30) where undoubtedly there is force exert on dragging Paul's body. This is Luke's second use to describe Paul being dragged - " But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized (epilambano as here in Acts 21:30) Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities," (Acts 16:19+).

W E Vine on helko - to draw," differs from syrō, as "drawing" does from violent "dragging." It is used of "drawing" a net, John 21:6, 11 (cp. suro in Jn 21: 8); Trench remarks (see below) "At Jn 21:6 and Jn 21:11 helkō (or helkyō) is used; for there a drawing of the net to a certain point is intended; by the disciples to themselves in the ship, by Peter to himself upon the shore. But at Jn 21:8 helkō gives place to syrō: for nothing is there intended but the dragging of the net, which had been fastened to the ship, after it through the water" (Trench's Syn). This less violent significance, usually present in helkō, but always absent from syrō, is seen in the metaphorical use of helkō, to signify "drawing" by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; John 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., Song of Sol. Song 1:4; Jer. 31:3, "with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." It is used of a more vigorous action, in John 18:10, of "drawing" a sword; in Acts 16:19; Acts 21:30, of forcibly "drawing" men to or from a place; so in Jas. 2:6.

Helko - 8v - drag(1), dragged(2), draw(1), draws(1), drew(2), haul(1). - Jn. 6:44; Jn. 12:32; Jn. 18:10; Jn. 21:6; Jn. 21:11; Acts 16:19; Acts 21:30; Jas. 2:6

Trench on drag - suro/syro(4951) Drag helkyo (Strong's 1670) Draw

The difference between syro and helkyo is theologically important and is best expressed in English by translating syrein as "to drag" and helkyein as "to draw." The notion of force is always present in syrein. Thus Plutarch spoke of the headlong course of a river "as dragging [syron] and carrying along everything." Consequently, where persons and not things are in question, syrein involves the notion of violence. Although the notion of force or violence may be present in helkyein, it is not necessarily so, any more than the English draw, when used to refer to mental and moral attraction, necessarily implies the use of force.

Only by keeping these differences in mind can we correct the erroneous interpretation of two doctrinally important passages in the Gospel of John. The first is John 12:32 : "I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples [pantas helkyso] to myself." But how does a crucified and exalted Savior draw all people to himself? Certainly not by force, for the will is incapable of force, but by the divine attractions of his love. In John 6:44 Jesus said: "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him [helkyse auton]. "

Those who deny theories of "irresistible grace" that portray men as machines that are dragged to God must assert that helkyse refers only to the drawing power of love, to the Father's attracting men to the Son. Had syrein been used in either of these Johannine texts, then those who believe that "irresistible grace" means forcing someone to believe against his or her will might argue that Jesus' declarations leave no room for any other interpretation than theirs. But syrein was not used in these passages.

More specifically, helkyein predominantly refers to drawing someone or something to a certain point; syrein refers to dragging something after oneself. Thus Lucian, in comparing a man to a fish that has been hooked and dragged through the water, described him as "being dragged [syromenon] and led by necessity." Frequently, syrein refers to something that is dragged or trailed on the ground, quite apart from its own will, such as a dead body. To confirm this, compare John 21:6; John 21:11 with John 21:8 of the same chapter. In John 21:6 and John 21:11, helkyein refers to drawing the net full of fish to a certain point on the ship and to drawing the net to the land. But in John 21:8, where the disciples drag the net full of fish behind them through the water, syrein, not helkyein, is used. The Authorized Version maintains this distinction, as does De Wette's German translation. Neither the Vulgate nor Beza, however, distinguish the two words, which they translate by traho (draw)

A deep dive into Hebrew and Greek word studies.

Philippians 2:13 Commentary | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

J.

I agree with most of the above.
I know that you like word studies.
Personally, I don't find them necessary.
It's very easy to understand scripture from scripture alone.
In very rare cases is it necessary to refer to Strong's.
As you now, using Strong's is like trying to learn a language with a dictionary....can't be done.
Most persons on these forums...such as atpollard, use Strong's in this incorrect method.
But I encourage your conversation with him because he will, eventually, come to realize that Strong's
is very superficial just by reading your posts on the words in question.

 

[GodsGrace]

The proof of what Jesus intended in John 12:32 is the final result that was accomplished in Revelation 5:9-10 as described by God in Psalm 22:27-28.

THIS is your reply to my post no. 193?? This is not a reply.
The proof is in scripture - NOT in the pudding.
I suppose you couldn't copy and paste a proper reply, so no reply is forthcoming from you.
Just as I've always stated.

And
YOU are doing what you accuse me of doing in post no. 160.
Rather hypocritical of you.

Unfortunately for you, scripture explains scripture:
John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


Let's support the above with the following verses: (which I have explained and to which you do not reply)
John 6:37
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly * not cast out.


WHO does the Father give to Jesus? As I've stated...those that believe and are saved:
John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:45


45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
John 6:51


51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;



AGAIN...John 12:32 requires no explanation...
because
If we accept your understanding of DRAW in John 6:44 then, by necessity, ALL MEN will be saved.

MEN...NOT types of men.


You'll find that Johann is much more versed in word studies than I am...
but, of course, you also will not give heed to him...
because it does not fit with your theology.

The reformed eisegete scripture to make it fit their theology.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Johann

This post is strictly between you and me since you also speak other languages.
I speak 3.
So, at times, it helps me to read the bible in a different language that is closer to the Greek
and thus is easier to translate.

Take a look at the translation for the verses in question.....

John 6:44
44 Nessuno può venire a me, se non lo attira il Padre che mi ha mandato; e io lo risusciterò nell'ultimo giorno.

John 12:32
“Gesù dice: “io, quando sarò innalzato dalla terra, attirerò tutti a me”.


Those such as atpollard want the word to mean DRAG,,,or at the least, DRAW BY FORCE.
Since it would not fit properly for John 12:32 all types of other excuses are found...for instance the idea that Jesus is speaking about different types of people instead of ALL MEN (since that would be universalism).
This is incorrect.



So let's look at how dragged by force is translated:
Acts 8:3
3Saulo intanto devastava la chiesa, entrando di casa in casa; e, trascinando via uomini e donne, li metteva in prigione.


Any way we want to study this John 6:44 cannot mean the same as John 12:32, which the reformed must work around to let it make sense.
Even in the English language Acts 8:3 uses the word DRAG....the translators wanting to show a violent action or a forceful action.

As you know,,,,ATTIRARE means to draw in an influential way,,,not in an efficacious way....to invite would also be acceptable.

Knowing a different language helps a lot even in understanding scripture..
Not that I would discuss this with another member....

 

[Dizerner]

I THOUGHT you were reformed when I first joined this Forum.

Because of people like Leighton Flowers, people think Arminians sound like Calvinists just because they believe in inability as well.

Calvinists don't get every single thing wrong. They believe in the Trinity, inspiration of Scripture, heaven and hell.

Believing in the Trinity doesn't make one "sound Calvinist." THE distinctive thing of Calvinism is the removal of real free will.

 

[ProDeo]

Excellent response, brother.
This is what I received when I posted this.

Matthew 7:11 — 'If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!'

This isn't complicated-just basic biblical truth, Bible 101."

God bless.

J.

It's morning here, had my first 2 coffees, mind is clear, let's review,

Do you believe your free will should act independently on the promtings of the Holy Spirit? Define the ego in man for me @ProDeo.

What's so difficult to understand?

J.

This is what you addressed the "ego of man", excellent subject.

On which I replied -

Matt 7:11 If you then, although you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Not difficult at all, Bible 101.

I thought you would understand what Jesus said, although you are evil, but apparently you did not. Lemme explain, but before, realize I did take your Define the ego in man for me @ProDeo. not personally.

When I came to Christ the big cleaning started with :

1. no more more lying, not that I was a big liar, but so now and then it was handy to protect my interests and ego.
2. admitting that I at times was wrong, being wrong is pretty normal when you are just 24, but admitting you are wrong to yourself is not fine for the ego, let alone in public. For me that became a major step.
3. Hurting someone, whether deliberately out of anger or unconsciously with good intentions, apologize to the person, hard, hard, because I was right after all, wasn't I? Let alone in public, 10 times harder, oh my poor ego, down to the drain, but I overcame.
4. Whatever more, I am certain the list is longer.

And even so, now that I have overcome these things I still see a lot of selfishness in myself. I like positive attention, bolstering my ego. I love the "likes" I receive here, in the meantime telling myself to remain humble, I write software and when I release a new version I get a lot of praise and I like it. Am I really that humble as I am used to see myself? It sometimes feels as hypocritical triggered by selfishness.

What about the 12 apostles, Peter wanted a reward (Matt 19:27), Paul even expected no more than a crown from Jesus when he died (2Tim 4:7-8)
Is it all wrong then, not pure like Jesus?

I think it's mixed.

Matt 7:11 If you then, although you are evil,

Yes.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because of people like Leighton Flowers, people think Arminians sound like Calvinists just because they believe in inability as well.

Calvinists don't get every single thing wrong. They believe in the Trinity, inspiration of Scripture, heaven and hell.

Believing in the Trinity doesn't make one "sound Calvinist." THE distinctive thing of Calvinism is the removal of real free will.

I agree.
I disagree about inability....although I'm not sure I'm understanding you properly.
I believe people DO have the ability to know that God exists and we have the ability to say YES to Him.
Many verses re this.

I never said Calvinists are wrong about everything or even that they are not Christian.
They just are following a theology that was invented by Luther, Calvin, and those, that began in the reformation and never existed before.
The reformation was in 1500AD...so 1,500 years after Christ.

This is NOT what was taught either in scripture...or by the Apostles to the next generation...which would be the Apostolic Fathers. If Calvinism were true, it would be reflected in the early church. The best they could do is to refer to Augustine....Calvin's hero....who was a gnostic heretic in the 5th century,,,and converted to Catholicism.

Interesting that only the matter of the absence of free will due to depravity is accepted by the reformed....
none of the other teachings of Augustine, which were Catholic, of course.

So this is how it goes (as I'm sure you know):
Man is so depraved that he is unable to seek God.
God must choose for man...to be either saved or damned.
There goes free will.
All of Calvinism hinges on these 2 principles.
I believe we've discussed this.

It also must be said that Calvinism is heretical...in the true sense of the word...
it teaches something different than mainline Christianity. ONLY the reformed teach as they do...
no other denomination or theological system. I don't state this too often because some take it as
a personal insult,,,however it is true.

What do you think of this?
All religious systems that came about recently are heretical:
Jehovah Witnesses
7th Day Adventists
Church of Later Day Saints
even Islam

 

[ProDeo]

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." John 12:32 ESV

I think to understand this verse is to read in context and the context is v19

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him.”

Give it a thought.