Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

[Johann]

Well said Johann,

A significant truth about God, in my view. His entire program was created for the cleansing and preservation of men, not the preservation of the purpose.

Duet. 4: 39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. 40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

God bless you, brother. I’m still very much a work in progress-prone to mistakes and always in need of wise, godly counsel to help keep me accountable.

J.

 

[atpollard]

Let's start with this--

If Paul meant to say that all who are called are always justified, then this would contradict--

Acts 7:51 – “You stiff-necked people... you always resist the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 13:34 – “How often I wanted to gather your children... and you were not willing.”

Matthew 22:3–14 – Many are invited (called) but do not respond.

So the biblical theology of “calling” includes:

External call (the gospel preached),

Internal call (conviction and drawing by the Spirit),

[and even effectual call (a Reformed inference, not an exegetical category]

--and take it from here. Which calling are you referring to?

J.

I was focusing exclusively on the “call” mentioned in Romans 8:30 … which, based on the surrounding context is a call to “those that love God” and are “predestined” and are “glorified”. For those people, the EXTERNAL CALL and the INTERNAL CALL both ultimately proved EFFECTIVE. Thus the “call” in Romans 8:30 is an effective call.


This does not negate the possibility that OTHER VERSES in scripture may speak of an ineffectual call, only that Romans 8:30 does not speak of an ineffectual call.

This does not prove that all calls are effective, nor does it disprove that some calls are ineffective. Romans 8:30 only speaks about the certainty of the efficacy of the call in Romans 8:30.

To your specific “counter verses” …

• Acts 7:51 – “You stiff-necked people... you always resist the Holy Spirit.”
• Luke 13:34 – “How often I wanted to gather your children... and you were not willing.”
• Matthew 22:3–14 – Many are invited (called) but do not respond.

Even if called, were they “foreknown” and “predestined” as (οὓς/τούτους) of Romans 8:30, that are “justified” and “glorified” in the golden chain?

If we are really to discuss PREDESTINATION and IRRESISTIBLE GRACE, not even all Jews are the true Israel, so certainly not all mankind is the CHOSEN/ELECT of God … Drawn by the Father … as many as were appointed … whose heart of stone was removed.

For ALL MEN …

• They are without excuse (Romans 1:20)
• “THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE” (Romans 3:10)
• “THERE IS NO ONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD” (Romans 3:11)
• “people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil” (John 3:19)
• “everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed” (John 3:20)
• “And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.” (Ephesians 2:1-3)

So it comes as no surprise to ME that without some extraordinary act of GOD [like the effective DRAW of John 6:44 or the open heart of Acts 16:14], the hearts of men at enmity with God do not have “ears to hear” and WILL NOT listen to the call broadcast to all.

Damnation is easy, Salvation is hard.

 

[Dizerner]

@Dizerner-could you please give a hand?

I don't buy for one bit that Romans 8:30 is speaking only of past believers.

Looking at the context it is a constant subject of "we, we, we, we we, we," Paul is not suddenly changing the subject and it makes no sense.

The past tense is what has been done in Christ for us, whereby we must persevere to obtain, as elsewhere.

 

[Johann]

I don't buy for one bit that Romans 8:30 is speaking only of past believers.

Looking at the context it is a constant subject of "we, we, we, we we, we," Paul is not suddenly changing the subject and it makes no sense.

The past tense is what has been done in Christ for us, whereby we must persevere to obtain, as elsewhere.

Granted.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Heirs with Christ
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Future Glory
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
God's Everlasting Love
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now we know "who are those" and "them"

J.

 

[ProDeo]

Future Glory
Rom 8:18 For I count that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed unto us.

I think what comes after this verse is about our future when we are with the Lord, but not after a summarize of of our presence state on Earth.

Rom 8:19 For the anxious looking with outstretched head of the creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

A further explanation of v18, I am still the opinion Paul when he says -- the manifestation of the sons of God -- speaks about a happening in afterlife.

YMMV.

Rom 8:20 (For the creation was made to submit itself to disappointing misery, not willingly, but because of Him Who hath submitted Himself the same ) waiteth, I say in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creation itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption [ruin] into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation is groaning together and travails in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the gifts of the Holy Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the sonship, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we were saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he hope for also ?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we through patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise THE Holy Spirit Himself also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but THE Holy Spirit Himself maketh intercession ... with groanings unutterable.
Rom 8:27 But He [THE Holy Spirit] That searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of THE Spirit Himself, because He [THE Holy Spirit] maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

End of our stay on Earth, Paul now moves to the future when we are with the Lord.

Rom 8:28 But we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose .
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew He foreordained also [purposed beforehand] to be conformed to the image of His Son, unto His being the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 But whom He did foreordain, them He called also: and whom He called, them He justified also: and whom He justified, them He glorified also.

The manifestation of the sons of God ? [v18]

Back to Earth -

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring charges [call to judicial account] against God's elect? Shall God Who justifies them?
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? Shall Christ That died, yea rather, That is risen again, Who is also at the right hand of God, Who intercedes also for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation [trials], or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril [danger], or sword?
Rom 8:36 Even as it is written, On Thine account we are killed all the day long; we are considered as sheep of slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him That loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Coffee time

J.

A big amen.

What a beautiful chapter.

But, is my analysis right? I doubt a bit.