brightfame52
Active Member
Thats works. Responsibility the state of being accountable, reliable, or answerable for actions, duties, and their consequences,
Thats operating from a principle of law, thats against Grace Principle.
Ephesians 2:8 salvation is the gift
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Thats operating from a principle of law, thats against Grace Principle.
@Redeemed
1.) Salvation from sin and condemnation is freely imparted based upon Christ securing eternal life for God's elect, by his faith and obedience, alone! Man has no part, or responsibility to receive this gift, it is freely imparted by grace through the power of God's Spirit in regeneration.
2.) The articles also said:
Eternal life is a gift without any work from man, and a work would be any anything perform whereby man has an "active part in," that would be considered a work of the law.
A couple of thoughts is needed to keep the truth of the gospel intact, or else, Satan through his minster's (not implying you are one by no means) will quickly corrupt even pure minds if he could.
1.) Salvation from sin and condemnation is freely imparted based upon Christ securing eternal life for God's elect, by his faith and obedience, alone! Man has no part, or responsibility to receive this gift, it is freely imparted by grace through the power of God's Spirit in regeneration.
2.) The articles also said:
The free gift of eternal life is not offered, it is freely imparted, a man dead in trespasses and sins has no power to receive an offer and it is even foolishness and childish thinking to even believe one can.
Eternal life is a gift without any work from man, and a work would be any anything perform whereby man has an "active part in," that would be considered a work of the law.
brightfame52
Active Member
By Grace ye are saved shows that there was nothing man can or did do to become saved. Thats true in Eph 2:5,8
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Both times " by grace are ye saved" is passive voice, saved is perfect tense passive voice
Either time the subject was acted upon and their salvation was not of themselves
The Faith in Vs 8 isn't of themselves either, else that would eliminate the passive voice action. The Faith Vs 8 is in line with the principle of grace.
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Both times " by grace are ye saved" is passive voice, saved is perfect tense passive voice
Either time the subject was acted upon and their salvation was not of themselves
The Faith in Vs 8 isn't of themselves either, else that would eliminate the passive voice action. The Faith Vs 8 is in line with the principle of grace.
Romans 4:5 But to him that **worketh not, but believeth** on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Belief/faith is not works according to Rom 4:5/God.
But whether faith is works or not is not the issue, but the counting of faith as righteousness is where the approval of God is. That is the gift of God not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Thus the "not of yourselves" refers to the counting of faith as righteousness as the gift resulting in salvation, not an irresistable grace or faith.
brightfame52
Active Member
I believe Salvation from sin and condemnation is legal and instead of imparted its imputed and secured by the obedience of Christ alone Rom 5:19 then later the vital part of salvation is imparted by the Spirit and by His Graces the elect receive faith and repentance, yet the elect never had any responsibility in receiving legal salvation, nor vital salvation. I just think its a difference in the legal which deals with sin and condemnation, and the vital that deals with the Spiritual.
Amen agreed
Amen excellent
brightfame52
Active Member
Okay, no problem
Actually it doesnt say that
The problem is when Faith is made a condition man must meet, thats when its a work and becomes a legal law issue. See Faith is never taugt to be a condition the sinner meets in the involvement of their salvation.
This is trash talk here. Nothing about Salvation is of ourselves, its all totally of Grace to include Faith
There is NO perfect translation, as inspiration and perfection applied only to the Originals
brightfame52
Active Member
Actually you are dead wrong, Grace in Salvation, Grace that saves is the irresistible power of God at work, it finds the object of Gods Tender Mercy, and elect vessel of mercy, dead in trespasses and sins and quickens that dead person to life, Gives them life from the dead Eph 2:4-5
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Can a dead person resist being made alive ? Could Lazarus dead in his grave, could he have resisted Christ making him alive ? So yes Grace in its application in Salvation is irresistible.
Redeemed
Active Member
A gift must be accepted. And to be saved we must accept the gift of salvation. This acceptance is a personal decision to trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, acknowledging His sacrificial death and resurrection as the means of redemption from sin and eternal separation from God.
Salvation is described as a gift from God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast seen in Ephesians 2:8-9).
The process of embracing salvation also involves confessing with the mouth, believing in the heart, and declaring with the mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believing in the heart that God raised Him from the dead. Romans 10:9-10
This acceptance of the gift of salvation is central to Christian theology and marks the beginning of a believer's walk with God.
The many refers to humanity, affected by both Adam's sin and Christ's redemptive work.
brightfame52
Active Member
No it doesnt. These are spiritual invisible gifts. They are applied by imputation and impartation. You confused about carnal things
brightfame52
Active Member
No it applied to the elect Rom 5:12ff is only referring to Gods elect as they had sustained a covenant headship with Adam and with Christ and the consequent results of their actions Adams and then Christs. The non elect aren't discussed in Rom 5 at all
brightfame52
Active Member
Right so if you had to accept it for it to be valid, then its works, its a reward for you accepting it. When its a matter of Grace the recipient is passive and the gift was given, not offered, not made available. The Gift of Gods Grace finds the elect vessel of mercy dead in sin, under its power and dominion, then Grace acts by giving the dead sinner Life Eph 2:2-5
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened[made alive] us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Grace makes alive or quickens from the dead.
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats false chrisitanity and its works, salvation based upon what a man does,
Redeemed
Active Member
Paul’s main point is there is a remedy for universal sin—a universal atonement. Everyone is affected by Adam’s sin. Everyone is affected by Christ’s atonement. In Rom 5:15, Paul asserts that Adam’s sin led to spiritual death for “the many,” where “many” here is the Hebrew idiom meaning “all,” as we saw above. Adam’s act that made all people sinners is counteracted by the atonement of Christ: “how much more have the grace of God and the gift which comes through the grace of the one man Jesus Christ overflowed to the many” (v. 15).
Romans 5:14–15, 18–19 assert unlimited atonement.
1 Corinthians 15:3–4: “For I passed on to you as most important what I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” This text is the nearest thing to a definition of the gospel anywhere in the New Testament. Paul asserts he “received” this teaching, which highlights its traditional and hence authoritative nature. The text directly states, “Christ died for our sins.”
Paul is addressing the church at Corinth, but he is speaking about his consistent practice in preaching from the time of his first arrival at Corinth (Acts 18:1–18). He clearly affirms the content of the gospel he preached in Corinth included the fact that “Christ died for our sins.” Notice carefully that Paul is saying this is what he preached pre-conversion, not post-conversion. Thus, the “our” in his statement cannot be taken to refer to all the elect or merely the believing elect, which is what limitarians are forced to argue. The entire pericope of 1 Cor 15:3–11 should be kept in mind.
Notice how Paul comes back around to what he had said in verse 3 when he gets to verse 11: “Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed” (NASB). Paul’s use of the customary present tense in Greek when he said “so we preach” (kērussomen) along with the aorist tense of “believed” (episteusate) makes it clear that he refers to a past point in time when they believed what it was his custom to preach. What did Paul preach to them in his evangelistic efforts to win all the unsaved to Christ? He preached the gospel, which included the proposition that “Christ died for our sins.” First Corinthians 15:3–4 asserts the atonement is unlimited.
2 Corinthians 5:14–21: Several important aspects of the atonement are taught in this passage. First, Paul affirms the universal scope of the atonement: “one died for all” (v. 14). Second, Paul affirms that Christ’s love is demonstrated in a universal atonement (vv. 14–15). Third, through the death of Christ, God reconciled the world to himself objectively (v. 19). What is this reconciliation? It is the providing of means whereby people can be reconciled via Christ’s death. God is not in a state of full reconciliation (including subjective reconciliation) with all people. He is in a state of objective reconciliation with all people. Because of the atonement, there are no legal barriers on God’s part hindering the salvation of any person.
The death of Christ objectively reconciled the world to God in the sense that his justice is satisfied, and he stands ready to pardon. The subjective side of reconciliation does not occur until the atonement is applied when the individual repents and believes in Christ. Scripture speaks of no full reconciliation between God and humanity except that which takes place at conversion. The passage, therefore, cannot refer to the full and completed reconciliation of the world to God. If so, there would be no need for Paul to exhort people to be reconciled to God, as he does in v. 20.
Fourth, in similar fashion to Rom 3:21–26, the result of this objective reconciliation for the unbelieving world is God’s “not counting their trespasses against them” (v. 19) in the sense of his not condemning the world but rather seeking their salvation (John 3:17). This reference is to current unbelievers at the time of Paul’s writing and expresses the state of affairs from the death of Christ on the cross to the present time for living unbelievers.
Fifth, though Christ died for all, only believers “in Christ” are subjectively reconciled with God and thus experience salvation (vv. 17–18). God has “reconciled us to himself” (v. 18). Sixth, the command to evangelize is grounded in a universal atonement (2 Cor 5:19b, 21). God has given to us the word of reconciliation (i.e., the mandate for evangelism). As ambassadors for Christ, we plead with people to be reconciled to God (v. 20). Furthermore, Paul affirms that as ambassadors for Christ God appeals through us to all the unsaved. Seventh, God made Christ “to be sin for us” (v. 21). In his substitutionary atonement, Christ took our place and suffered the judgment of God for our sin.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, a testimony at the proper time. 1 Timothy 2:6
This passage explicitly teaches God’s universal saving will and unlimited atonement. Paul links the death of Christ “for all” with God’s stated desire for “everyone to be saved.”
David L. Allen, “A Critique of Limited Atonement,”
Romans 5:14–15, 18–19 assert unlimited atonement.
1 Corinthians 15:3–4: “For I passed on to you as most important what I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” This text is the nearest thing to a definition of the gospel anywhere in the New Testament. Paul asserts he “received” this teaching, which highlights its traditional and hence authoritative nature. The text directly states, “Christ died for our sins.”
Paul is addressing the church at Corinth, but he is speaking about his consistent practice in preaching from the time of his first arrival at Corinth (Acts 18:1–18). He clearly affirms the content of the gospel he preached in Corinth included the fact that “Christ died for our sins.” Notice carefully that Paul is saying this is what he preached pre-conversion, not post-conversion. Thus, the “our” in his statement cannot be taken to refer to all the elect or merely the believing elect, which is what limitarians are forced to argue. The entire pericope of 1 Cor 15:3–11 should be kept in mind.
Notice how Paul comes back around to what he had said in verse 3 when he gets to verse 11: “Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed” (NASB). Paul’s use of the customary present tense in Greek when he said “so we preach” (kērussomen) along with the aorist tense of “believed” (episteusate) makes it clear that he refers to a past point in time when they believed what it was his custom to preach. What did Paul preach to them in his evangelistic efforts to win all the unsaved to Christ? He preached the gospel, which included the proposition that “Christ died for our sins.” First Corinthians 15:3–4 asserts the atonement is unlimited.
2 Corinthians 5:14–21: Several important aspects of the atonement are taught in this passage. First, Paul affirms the universal scope of the atonement: “one died for all” (v. 14). Second, Paul affirms that Christ’s love is demonstrated in a universal atonement (vv. 14–15). Third, through the death of Christ, God reconciled the world to himself objectively (v. 19). What is this reconciliation? It is the providing of means whereby people can be reconciled via Christ’s death. God is not in a state of full reconciliation (including subjective reconciliation) with all people. He is in a state of objective reconciliation with all people. Because of the atonement, there are no legal barriers on God’s part hindering the salvation of any person.
The death of Christ objectively reconciled the world to God in the sense that his justice is satisfied, and he stands ready to pardon. The subjective side of reconciliation does not occur until the atonement is applied when the individual repents and believes in Christ. Scripture speaks of no full reconciliation between God and humanity except that which takes place at conversion. The passage, therefore, cannot refer to the full and completed reconciliation of the world to God. If so, there would be no need for Paul to exhort people to be reconciled to God, as he does in v. 20.
Fourth, in similar fashion to Rom 3:21–26, the result of this objective reconciliation for the unbelieving world is God’s “not counting their trespasses against them” (v. 19) in the sense of his not condemning the world but rather seeking their salvation (John 3:17). This reference is to current unbelievers at the time of Paul’s writing and expresses the state of affairs from the death of Christ on the cross to the present time for living unbelievers.
Fifth, though Christ died for all, only believers “in Christ” are subjectively reconciled with God and thus experience salvation (vv. 17–18). God has “reconciled us to himself” (v. 18). Sixth, the command to evangelize is grounded in a universal atonement (2 Cor 5:19b, 21). God has given to us the word of reconciliation (i.e., the mandate for evangelism). As ambassadors for Christ, we plead with people to be reconciled to God (v. 20). Furthermore, Paul affirms that as ambassadors for Christ God appeals through us to all the unsaved. Seventh, God made Christ “to be sin for us” (v. 21). In his substitutionary atonement, Christ took our place and suffered the judgment of God for our sin.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, a testimony at the proper time. 1 Timothy 2:6
This passage explicitly teaches God’s universal saving will and unlimited atonement. Paul links the death of Christ “for all” with God’s stated desire for “everyone to be saved.”
David L. Allen, “A Critique of Limited Atonement,”
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Salvation is a gift to us and one that we accept or reject. We accept the Grace that is offered to us by God. He never opens our mouth and forces it into us with a funnel. He never comes along and tapps us on the shoulder and says like it or lump it you are chosen. He wants us to love him and He wants us to want him.
Grace does not include faith. Faith allows us His grace.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Amen, amen — salvation is the gift.
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