Ephesians 2:8 salvation is the gift
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The word "save" [sozo] is a verb. Verbs do not carry genders. The word for "salvation" in the Greek is soteria. It is a noun in the feminine gender.
FreeInChrist
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Yes, @FreeInChrist, it really matters. If the "this" in Ephesians 2:8 were in the feminine, then it would refer back to faith and it would indeed mean that faith was the gift and not of our own doing. But it is not in the feminine and therefore it cannot be used to support the false idea that faith is a gift.
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atpollard
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It matters a little. In ENGLISH, word order communicates which words go together ("A dog bit Tom." vs "Tom bit a dog."). In GREEK, word order communicates what is most important in the sentence and they make words "masculine", "feminine" or "neuter" to convey which words go together in complex sentences.
You are correct that the English translators already worked most of this out for us, however, some of the subtle details were "lost in translation". One example is the question of EXACTLY what "this" refers to in the ENGLISH translation of Ephesians 2:8-9. The GREEK provides hints about what it means and what it cannot mean. [Just as an example, since "this" and "gift" are [neuter], it cannot refer to JUST "grace" [feminine] or JUST "faith" [feminine] or just "saved" [masculine] as the genders do not match. If Paul intended to say that just one of those was the "gift/this" then he would have communicated that link by matching the gender of the words.
Just as a point of information, the original word order in GREEK is closer to "[For] [by grace] [you have been] ... [gift]" meaning that GRACE is the point that Paul wanted us to see as the most important thing in that sentence and GIFT as the least important point. [shrug] Make of that whatever you want, it is just an interesting fact.
atpollard
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Actually, in Ephesians 2:8, the word is "σεσῳσμένοι" [sesōsmenoi] which is a Verb - Perfect Passive Participle - Nominative Plural Masculine since "ἐστε" [este] is the "verb" in that sentence. (according to the Blue Letter Bible).
So I think the "neuter" of "τοῦτο" and "δῶρον" suggests that they refer to the entire clause "by grace [F] you have been saved [M] through faith [F]" ... which is why it is "neuter" (the "gift" contains masculine and feminine items).
YMMV.
brightfame52
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atpollard
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Only if you are a woman ("faith" being feminine) ... of course, only men are "saved" (σεσῳσμένοι being masculine). However Men are [masculine] saved through [feminine] faith, so we must be saved through the "faith" of our wives ... which explains a LOT about most modern churches, doesn't it?
[intended 100% 'tongue in cheek' ... so please just take it as a bit of humor and not seriously.]
Faith is something that I have. In the case of religion, it is a state of mind for and a trust in God. It is something that I develop from the information that God has given us both in His special revelation provided in His written word and in His general revelation provided in His created world.
brightfame52
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FreeInChrist
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brightfame52
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For what ?
FreeInChrist
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you are having a comprehension problem and I thought if we start again at the beginning it would help you understand
If that is what the blue Letter Bible says, I don't think I believe it. But it has been far too many years since my formal studies in either Greek, or English for that matter. But "have been saved" is a verb form. The participle would be "having been saved" in which it would serve as an adjective modifier. But as I said it has been too long, almost 70 years.
As an aside, I notice that the YLT version has "for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith...." So maybe.....
brightfame52
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brightfame52
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okay insults will get you nowhere here friend
Do you believe in gravity? If so, why? Is that an innate natural quality from within yourself? Do you believe that it is true? Do you trust that it will always be active even though you can't prove that yourself?
Face it; the only thing you have is the word of God, the scriptures, telling you the truth of God. You believe God's word and you have come to trust and have confidence in the truth of what He says there even though you can't prove any of it. You can't even prove there is a God of the Bible. That is why Paul says in Romans 10:17, "faith comes from hearing [reading], and hearing {reading] through the word of Christ". Here the Greek for word is rhema not logos. rhema is the speech or discourse, that which is spoken or read, the narrative about Christ. You have what you are convinced is God's word. You are convinced that the bible is true. You believe it and you have placed your trust and confidence in what it says. That is the biblical definition of faith (Heb 11:1).
Yes. It does not point to faith as being the gift.
Saved (sozo)is indeed a verb, Yet my software identifies it as a perfect passive, participle, nominative, masculine.
This is why
A participle is a verb form that can function as an adjective or to form certain verb tenses. There are two main types of participles:
- Present participles, which typically end in -ing and describe ongoing actions (e.g., "running").
- Past participles, which often end in -ed, -en, or other variations, and indicate completed actions (e.g., "broken").
Participles modify nouns or pronouns in a sentence, adding descriptive detail.
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