Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

TedT said:
IF HE did NOT ordain these consequences then how did they occur?? No one else has the power to transmit sinfulness and death to their progeny...how can we pretend GOD did not create this special circumstance??

HE did not just allow Adam's progeny to have his sinfulness, HE ordained it or it would not be so because no one else has ever done that!!! None of the reprobate demonic Satanists have ever achieved this ability. Adam must have got this result by the will of GOD because it is NOT natural.


I agree but when they are sown into the word why do their progeny not inherit their sinfulness but only Adam's ??? Too bogus for me...


WE were all created pecable and we were all faced with the choices Satan, Eve and Adam faced but we did not inherit anyone else's culpability, the unfairness of which which you choose to not address.

Ezek 18:20 Berean Standard Bible
The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. ...yet we all supposedly bear the iniquity of Adam and the consequences of his iniquity...<head shake, sigh>.

IF "bear the iniquity of" does not mean "to be liable for the sinfulness of"...what do we have? Theological gobbledygook...
Click to expand...
Perhaps, if possible, you might slow your roll a little and realize that I have not said we are culpable for Adam’s sin. I have alluded to Ezekiel 18 as support for this purpose. I am not culpable for my father’s actions.

I am, however, subjected to the results of Adam, my father’s, sin. The children of the drunkered are not culpable for the father’s behavior, but the results of the father’s behavior affect and effect the condition of the children’s lives almost irreparably.

Adam’s sin broke the relationship between God and mankind (Adam), and it is broken for all mankind that came from Adam.

Because of Adam, we are separated from God and thereby prone to sinful behavior, because of this, we all will sin, and we become aware of our sinning through the law, and thereby become culpable for our own sins alone.

Doug
 
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TibiasDad said:
If you are right, then all men are justified too.

We are all subject to both physical and spiritual death because of Adam. Physical death is an immediate result, but spiritual death is not held upon us until the law comes, for Paul said:

Rom 5:13To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

And again, Paul says in Rom 7:7…. “For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

We are not considered “spiritually dead” until we are cognizant of the “law” and thereby become aware of our guilt. Paul teaches that physical death “reigns” apart from the law, but it took the law, and our awareness of breaking it to make condemnation actual and binding.


Doug
Click to expand...
You don't understand God's Federal headship with Adam and with Christ
 
TibiasDad said:
Perhaps, if possible, you might slow your roll a little and realize that I have not said we are culpable for Adam’s sin. I have alluded to Ezekiel 18 as support for this purpose. I am not culpable for my father’s actions.
Click to expand...
Yet to suffer and die because another sinned while being made sinful to be able to suffer and die because he sinned is exactly what it means to be culpable of anothers sins!!! Your word play changes nothing.
 
Studyman said:
Yes, He went to the thief and the adulterer and said to the thief, while he was yet a thief, "go and steal no more" and I will advocate on your behalf to my Father, now go and don't commit adultery no more, with a promise that if they "continue in God's Goodness" (not stealing, not committing adultery or what ever transgressions they lived in) that He would speak on our behalf, as our Advocate and save us from the death our transgressions brought to us.

But for those who call Him Lord, Lord, but continue not in God's Goodness, Jesus Himself said He doesn't even k ow these men.

How can a man who doesn't even know me, advocate on my behalf?
Click to expand...

Are you seriously asking this question. Very easy. God the Father and God the son know everything
which ios why Jesus could say in Matt 7: 22-23 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

It emphasizes that merely performing acts in His name is not enough for salvation; one must also do the will of God.

God the Father and God the Son both know who is and is not going to tow the line as it were.......
Studyman said:
I think Paul understood this teaching of the Christ and wanted to affirm the teaching in Rom 11
Click to expand...
 
TibiasDad said:
It is your burden to exegetically demonstrate that the context could have “hinted” at such a scenario.

Doug
Click to expand...
I have demonstrated it over and over - your rejecting my demonstrations as wrong or irrelevant do not change that. The Black swans in your garden are a huge flock...

You ignore that people were there singing when they saw GOD's Divinity and eternal power in the creation of the physical universe,
Job 38:77, Rom 1:20.

You ignore that sinners were flung into the earth after the fall, not created here, Rev 12:4-9. You ignore that to sow does not here nor nowhere else in the bible means to create, Matt 13:36-39.

You ignore that people are sinful in the womb as proven by the fact that they die and suffer in the womb, the result of sin, not a mere consequence of life, Ezek 18:30, Rom 6:23.

shrug
 
brightfame52 said:
You don't understand God's Federal headship with Adam and with Christ
Click to expand...
I understand it and find it wanting…Ezekiel 18 and Rom 5:13 and 7:8-9 state that the son is not condemned for his father’s actions and that without the law, sin is not held against us.

Yes, as Paul says, sin is in the world, and we are contaminated by it, but we are only condemned by what we actually do, not just what we have within us. Sin is in the world, but Paul says that apart from a cognizant awareness of the law, he was once “alive”.

The only sense of the Federal Headship that applies and that I espouse, is that Adam’s sin separated the entirety of the race, which was only 2 people at the time, from God. All that come from that which is separated are equally separate. Guilt and separation are distinct concepts.

Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
Procreation is not creation proper. Adam was created to procreate through and with his wife. God gave mankind the capacity to reproduce their kind through the divinely ordained process. All that Adam and Eve were is passed on to their offspring, including their being disenfranchised from relationship with God.



Angels don’t procreate or even marry. They are created differently from us.
Click to expand...

While true, they were given free will, hence the one that has been called Lucifer would not have done what he did.

However.... who or what is it that you think those called Sons of God in Gen 6:1-4 were? (I do know there are several thoughts)

Now it came about, when mankind began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them,

2.that the sons of God saw that the daughters of mankind were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not remain with man forever, because he is also flesh; nevertheless his days shall be 120 years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of mankind, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

1 Enoch 6-8 has this to say. (https://sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe009.htm)​


The Fallen Angels – 1 Enoch 6-8​

The Book of the Watchers describes the fallen angels (1 Enoch 6-8). In the biblical story of the Nephilim, the sons of God saw the daughters of men were beautiful so they married them and had children (Gen 6:1-4). These children were called the Nephilim, the “mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.” In Genesis, the story shows how far the wickedness of humans had become: humans interacted sexually with spiritual beings. No details are given on how this might be possible, but the next verse in Genesis says “the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” This brief story is tantalizing: who are these “sons of God” and what were the Nephilim? 1 Enoch offers an expansion of this biblical story in chapters 6-11. Are the Nephilim fallen angels?

In 1 Enoch, the sons of God are the “sons of heaven,” angelic beings led by Shemihazah. The name Shemihazah (שׁמיחזה, šemîḥăzāh) means “My name has seen” and is sometimes vocalized as Semyaz of Semyaza (Nickelsburg, 179). “Name” refers to God, so the name refers to constantly watching God. This is ironic since God will see this rebellion and render judgment on the Shemihazah. Some readers want to find some reference to Satan as the leader of fallen angels in the Book of Enoch. As the story progresses, however, Azazel emerges as the ringleader (but later Enoch will intercede on behalf of Azazel). This is an example of how foolish (and impossible) it is to project modern Christian angelology on 1 Enoch. Azazel is not the modern version of Satan at all!

The two hundred angels take an oath to descend to Mt Hermon, find women to marry and have children with them. 1 Enoch 6:7-8 lists the names of the leaders of these angels. Most have names with some reference to God (Remashel, “evening of God” or Kokabel, “star of God” ). The most interesting of these names is Dan’el, a name associated with the Ugaritic literature and often offered as an explanation of the legendary character of Daniel.


In chapters 7 and 8 the angels make good on their oath and take women as wives. They teach humans “magical medicines, incantations, the cutting of roots and about plants.” The origin of folk-medicine is therefore ascribed to these angelic beings. The children of the angels are giants standing three hundred cubits (an improbable 450 feet tall!) These giants eat so much food the humans cannot feed them anymore. The giants proceed to eat humans as well as all other kinds of animals.

The text notes especially that they drank the blood of animals, “sinning against them.” In the biblical flood story, the Noahic covenant includes a command about consuming blood. 1 Enoch 7-8 is a reflection upon this command which was probably given because the antediluvian world did in fact consume blood.

In addition to teaching humans in interpret a wide range of signs, they teach humans medicinal magic. The angel Azazel teaches humans metal-working, including making of ornaments and weapon making. Azazel also teaches them to make eye-shadow and other physical ornamentation. This may be a polemic against pagan practice of using make up in their religious ceremonies. Other angels teach the humans how to track the stars (astrology and divination) and the signs of the moon. These angels are responsible for teaching humans all sorts of sinful practices. Humanity cries out as a result of this oppression, a cry which “goes up to heaven.”

This detailed expansion of the biblical stories blames wicked angelic beings for revealing mysteries to humans which will result in sin. It is not Adam’s rebellion in the garden that is responsible for human evil, but wicked angelic beings who do not remain in their appointed place. What is more, the great Flood is not the result of human sin, but the rebellion of these angelic beings.

This is a significant re-writing of the worldview of Genesis 6. What is the author’s motivation for this shift of blame?


TibiasDad said:
Your explanation is, in my humble opinion, shallow and short sighted. It doesn’t account for the fullness of God’s nature and character. Because God is Love, doesn’t mean that God is incapable of doing harm. You do remember the flood!

God, in love, set parameters and the consequences very clearly before man/Adam; in the day you eat of it you will surely die! The whole of the human race spiritually dies when the legal representative of his race falls in sin.

I would argue that God’s love is shown by his allowance of man’s capacity of sinning and power to choose for himself how he will respond to God. And love is shown by God choosing to “not hold man’s sins against him” and sending Christ to redeem that which was lost.

So again, God did not make us evil; we did that to ourselves by willfully sinning. The effects of Adam’s sin are passed on to the race that he represents, just as Christ’s righteousness is passed to those he represents.

Doug
Click to expand...
 
TedT said:
Yet to suffer and die because another sinned
Click to expand...
We die physically because of Adam.
We are separated as a race because of Adam.
Our separation from God makes us naturally divergent from God's nature.
Our divergent nature makes us prone to acting divergently, ie, sinning.
The result, therefore, is that all those descending from Adam “ have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

We are condemned for our own sins alone. I am not condemned for Adam’s sins, my Earthly father’s sins, or your sin.

That I will sin because of Adam is not to say that I am guilty of Adam’s sin.

Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
I understand it and find it wanting…Ezekiel 18 and Rom 5:13 and 7:8-9 state that the son is not condemned for his father’s actions and that without the law, sin is not held against us.

Yes, as Paul says, sin is in the world, and we are contaminated by it, but we are only condemned by what we actually do, not just what we have within us. Sin is in the world, but Paul says that apart from a cognizant awareness of the law, he was once “alive”.

The only sense of the Federal Headship that applies and that I espouse, is that Adam’s sin separated the entirety of the race, which was only 2 people at the time, from God. All that come from that which is separated are equally separate. Guilt and separation are distinct concepts.

Doug
Click to expand...
You dont understand the Headship teachings of Adam and Christ. The national covenant state of Israel has nothing to do with it

There has by God been only two heads of mankind, Adam and Jesus Christ where one acts for the whole
 
TedT said:
You ignore that people were there singing when they saw GOD's Divinity and eternal power in the creation of the physical universe,
Job 38:77, Rom 1:20.
Click to expand...
Job 38:6On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

The “morning stars” refer to the Arch Angels, such as Michael and Gabriel, while the “sons of God” refer to mere angelic beings.

Rom 1:20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

“For since the creation of the world” infers the completion of creation, which includes the creation of mankind. In other words, Paul is say that from the point of his creation, man has been knowledgeable and cognizant of “God’s invisible qualities…powers and divine nature…” thus, they have no excuse!

Doug
 
TedT said:
You ignore that to sow does not here nor nowhere else in the bible means to create, Matt 13:36-39.
Click to expand...
I don’t recall ever saying that sow means create! Sow is metaphorically speaking of being established; the righteous by God, and the unrighteous by the Devil. Both factions seek to do their father’s bidding. This will continue until the end of days, when both will receive their due! That’s the point of the parable.

Doug
 
TedT said:
You ignore that people are sinful in the womb as proven by the fact that they die and suffer in the womb, the result of sin, not a mere consequence of life, Ezek 18:30, Rom 6:23.
Click to expand...
Do I? We are separated from God, we are spiritually divided from him, and thus are void of spiritual life. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Physical death and suffering are the consequence of Adam’s actions. Spiritual death is the result of each person’s own sins alone. Again, there is a difference between being contaminated by Adam’s sin and being culpable for Adam’s sinful behavior.

Doug
 
FreeInChrist said:
While true, they were given free will, hence the one that has been called Lucifer would not have done what he did.

However.... who or what is it that you think those called Sons of God in Gen 6:1-4 were? (I do know there are several thoughts)

Now it came about, when mankind began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them,

2.that the sons of God saw that the daughters of mankind were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not remain with man forever, because he is also flesh; nevertheless his days shall be 120 years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of mankind, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

1 Enoch 6-8 has this to say. (https://sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe009.htm)​


The Fallen Angels – 1 Enoch 6-8​

The Book of the Watchers describes the fallen angels (1 Enoch 6-8). In the biblical story of the Nephilim, the sons of God saw the daughters of men were beautiful so they married them and had children (Gen 6:1-4). These children were called the Nephilim, the “mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.” In Genesis, the story shows how far the wickedness of humans had become: humans interacted sexually with spiritual beings. No details are given on how this might be possible, but the next verse in Genesis says “the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” This brief story is tantalizing: who are these “sons of God” and what were the Nephilim? 1 Enoch offers an expansion of this biblical story in chapters 6-11. Are the Nephilim fallen angels?

In 1 Enoch, the sons of God are the “sons of heaven,” angelic beings led by Shemihazah. The name Shemihazah (שׁמיחזה, šemîḥăzāh) means “My name has seen” and is sometimes vocalized as Semyaz of Semyaza (Nickelsburg, 179). “Name” refers to God, so the name refers to constantly watching God. This is ironic since God will see this rebellion and render judgment on the Shemihazah. Some readers want to find some reference to Satan as the leader of fallen angels in the Book of Enoch. As the story progresses, however, Azazel emerges as the ringleader (but later Enoch will intercede on behalf of Azazel). This is an example of how foolish (and impossible) it is to project modern Christian angelology on 1 Enoch. Azazel is not the modern version of Satan at all!

The two hundred angels take an oath to descend to Mt Hermon, find women to marry and have children with them. 1 Enoch 6:7-8 lists the names of the leaders of these angels. Most have names with some reference to God (Remashel, “evening of God” or Kokabel, “star of God” ). The most interesting of these names is Dan’el, a name associated with the Ugaritic literature and often offered as an explanation of the legendary character of Daniel.


In chapters 7 and 8 the angels make good on their oath and take women as wives. They teach humans “magical medicines, incantations, the cutting of roots and about plants.” The origin of folk-medicine is therefore ascribed to these angelic beings. The children of the angels are giants standing three hundred cubits (an improbable 450 feet tall!) These giants eat so much food the humans cannot feed them anymore. The giants proceed to eat humans as well as all other kinds of animals.

The text notes especially that they drank the blood of animals, “sinning against them.” In the biblical flood story, the Noahic covenant includes a command about consuming blood. 1 Enoch 7-8 is a reflection upon this command which was probably given because the antediluvian world did in fact consume blood.

In addition to teaching humans in interpret a wide range of signs, they teach humans medicinal magic. The angel Azazel teaches humans metal-working, including making of ornaments and weapon making. Azazel also teaches them to make eye-shadow and other physical ornamentation. This may be a polemic against pagan practice of using make up in their religious ceremonies. Other angels teach the humans how to track the stars (astrology and divination) and the signs of the moon. These angels are responsible for teaching humans all sorts of sinful practices. Humanity cries out as a result of this oppression, a cry which “goes up to heaven.”

This detailed expansion of the biblical stories blames wicked angelic beings for revealing mysteries to humans which will result in sin. It is not Adam’s rebellion in the garden that is responsible for human evil, but wicked angelic beings who do not remain in their appointed place. What is more, the great Flood is not the result of human sin, but the rebellion of these angelic beings.

This is a significant re-writing of the worldview of Genesis 6. What is the author’s motivation for this shift of blame?
Click to expand...
Enoch is not scripture, and though quoted by scripture, is not a sufficient source on which to establish a theologically accurate understanding.

The Nephilim are difficult to understand and identify accurately. Most take these to be a type of angelic being, probably fallen angels, who are, by whatever means, capable of breeding.

The shift is one of volume and depth of evil.


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
We die physically because of Adam.
Click to expand...
We die because we are sinful OR Jesus was babbling like a fool to say that death is the wages for sin!!!
 

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