Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

TibiasDad · 2025-09-17T17:59:41-0700

TedT said:
IF HE did NOT ordain these consequences then how did they occur?? No one else has the power to transmit sinfulness and death to their progeny...how can we pretend GOD did not create this special circumstance??

HE did not just allow Adam's progeny to have his sinfulness, HE ordained it or it would not be so because no one else has ever done that!!! None of the reprobate demonic Satanists have ever achieved this ability. Adam must have got this result by the will of GOD because it is NOT natural.

I agree but when they are sown into the word why do their progeny not inherit their sinfulness but only Adam's ??? Too bogus for me...

WE were all created pecable and we were all faced with the choices Satan, Eve and Adam faced but we did not inherit anyone else's culpability, the unfairness of which which you choose to not address.

Ezek 18:20 Berean Standard Bible
The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. ...yet we all supposedly bear the iniquity of Adam and the consequences of his iniquity...<head shake, sigh>.

IF "bear the iniquity of" does not mean "to be liable for the sinfulness of"...what do we have? Theological gobbledygook...

Perhaps, if possible, you might slow your roll a little and realize that I have not said we are culpable for Adam’s sin. I have alluded to Ezekiel 18 as support for this purpose. I am not culpable for my father’s actions.

I am, however, subjected to the results of Adam, my father’s, sin. The children of the drunkered are not culpable for the father’s behavior, but the results of the father’s behavior affect and affect the condition of the children’s lives almost irreparably.

Adam’s sin broke the relationship between God and mankind (Adam), and it is broken for all mankind that came from Adam.

Because of Adam, we are separated from God and thereby prone to sinful behavior, because of this, we all will sin, and we become aware of our sinning through the law, and thereby become culpable for our own sins alone.

Doug

TibiasDad · 2025-09-17T18:01:31-0700

TedT said:
..and if the intended meaning was to clearly hint at our pre-conception existence and how we came to be infused into human society.......?

It’s not!

QED

Doug

TibiasDad · 2025-09-17T20:10:50-0700

TedT said:
..and if the intended meaning was to clearly hint at our pre-conception existence and how we came to be infused into human society.......?

It is your burden to exegetically demonstrate that the context could have “hinted” at such a scenario.

Doug

brightfame52 · 2025-09-17T23:58:25-0700

TibiasDad said:
If you are right, then all men are justified too.

We are all subject to both physical and spiritual death because of Adam. Physical death is an immediate result, but spiritual death is not held upon us until the law comes, for Paul said:

Rom 5:13To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

And again, Paul says in Rom 7:7…. “For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

We are not considered “spiritually dead” until we are cognizant of the “law” and thereby become aware of our guilt. Paul teaches that physical death “reigns” apart from the law, but it took the law, and our awareness of breaking it to make condemnation actual and binding.

Doug

You don't understand God's Federal headship with Adam and with Christ

TedT · 2025-09-18T10:13:42-0700

TibiasDad said:
Perhaps, if possible, you might slow your roll a little and realize that I have not said we are culpable for Adam’s sin. I have alluded to Ezekiel 18 as support for this purpose. I am not culpable for my father’s actions.

Yet to suffer and die because another sinned while being made sinful to be able to suffer and die because he sinned is exactly what it means to be culpable of anothers sins!!! Your word play changes nothing.

FreeInChrist · 2025-09-18T10:31:59-0700

Studyman said:
Yes, He went to the thief and the adulterer and said to the thief, while he was yet a thief, "go and steal no more" and I will advocate on your behalf to my Father, now go and don't commit adultery no more, with a promise that if they "continue in God's Goodness" (not stealing, not committing adultery or what ever transgressions they lived in) that He would speak on our behalf, as our Advocate and save us from the death our transgressions brought to us.

But for those who call Him Lord, Lord, but continue not in God's Goodness, Jesus Himself said He doesn't even k ow these men.

How can a man who doesn't even know me, advocate on my behalf?

Are you seriously asking this question. Very easy. God the Father and God the son know everything
which ios why Jesus could say in Matt 7: 22-23 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

It emphasizes that merely performing acts in His name is not enough for salvation; one must also do the will of God.

God the Father and God the Son both know who is and is not going to tow the line as it were.......

Studyman said:
I think Paul understood this teaching of the Christ and wanted to affirm the teaching in Rom 11

TedT · 2025-09-18T10:32:39-0700

TibiasDad said:
It is your burden to exegetically demonstrate that the context could have “hinted” at such a scenario.

Doug

I have demonstrated it over and over - your rejecting my demonstrations as wrong or irrelevant do not change that. The Black swans in your garden are a huge flock...

You ignore that people were there singing when they saw GOD's Divinity and eternal power in the creation of the physical universe,
Job 38:77, Rom 1:20.

You ignore that sinners were flung into the earth after the fall, not created here, Rev 12:4-9. You ignore that to sow does not here nor nowhere else in the bible means to create, Matt 13:36-39.

You ignore that people are sinful in the womb as proven by the fact that they die and suffer in the womb, the result of sin, not a mere consequence of life, Ezek 18:30, Rom 6:23.

shrug

TibiasDad · 2025-09-18T10:43:21-0700

brightfame52 said:
You don't understand God's Federal headship with Adam and with Christ

I understand it and find it wanting…Ezekiel 18 and Rom 5:13 and 7:8-9 state that the son is not condemned for his father’s actions and that without the law, sin is not held against us.

Yes, as Paul says, sin is in the world, and we are contaminated by it, but we are only condemned by what we actually do, not just what we have within us. Sin is in the world, but Paul says that apart from a cognizant awareness of the law, he was once “alive”.

The only sense of the Federal Headship that applies and that I espouse, is that Adam’s sin separated the entirety of the race, which was only 2 people at the time, from God. All that come from that which is separated are equally separate. Guilt and separation are distinct concepts.

Doug

Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

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