Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

[Studyman]

In principle, no, but God has shown kindness to all “in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” His wrath is for those who reject his undeserved kindness.

Doug

Yes, He went to the thief and the adulterer and said to the thief, while he was yet a thief, "go and steal no more" and I will advocate on your behalf to my Father, now go and don't commit adultery no more, with a promise that if they "continue in God's Goodness" (not stealing, not committing adultery or what ever transgressions they lived in) that He would speak on our behalf, as our Advocate and save us from the death our transgressions brought to us.

But for those who call Him Lord, Lord, but continue not in God's Goodness, Jesus Himself said He doesn't even k ow these men.

How can a man who doesn't even know me, advocate on my behalf?

I think Paul understood this teaching of the Christ and wanted to affirm the teaching in Rom 11

 

[TibiasDad]

It is not Calvinism because PCE rebukes the contention that GOD predestined the fall nor sin for HIS glory most strongly...

I am not familiar with the “PCE” (which I am guessing means Presbyterian Church of England, but that may not be correct), but I am quite familiar with historic Calvinistic thought, and predestination of all things is the foundation of Calvinism.

The idea that “ a holy GOD going against HIMself by creating sinners by means of HIS boy Adam according to HIS will” is perfectly consistent with the meticulous predetermination of Calvinism!

PCE contends that everyone got a free will choice before the fall. WE chose our FATES by faith, an unproven hope, either to be HIS heavenly Bride or to be HIS eternal enemies, before the creation of the physical universe…

How does one make a decision before they exist, much less “before the creation of the physical universe…”? Choosing of “our fates by faith” before creation is a ridiculous notion. It is logical hogwash!

Then do you repudiate the sinfulness of infants?

Infants are sinful in nature , but are not culpable for their condition until they knowingly and willingly sin. We are sinful from birth but not a culpable sinner until we are cognizant of right and wrong and we deliberately do something sinful.

Maybe you repudiate that death is the wages for sin?

Ridiculous! Spiritual death occurred when Adam sinned.

Believing infants in the womb

There is no such thing as a “believing infant in the womb”!


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

But for those who call Him Lord, Lord, but continue not in God's Goodness, Jesus Himself said He doesn't even k ow these men.

There are many who think themselves to be Christians, but have never truly believed. “Know” in biblical and theological terms means to be in close, intimate, relationship. In physical contexts, in mean sexual intimacy. In spiritual contexts, in means spiritual relationships that are intimate.

How can a man who doesn't even know me, advocate on my behalf?

It doesn’t mean that he is ignorant of who they are. An omniscient being has intellectual awareness about everything and everyone!


Doug

 

[TomL]

You dont know where you wanna go. Believing is by the Spirit and its an evidence of salvation. Before salvation man is imprisoned in unbelief, in the adamic dead nature.

No man is not imprisoned by unbelief

Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (NASB95) — 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Joshua 24:15–18 (NASB95) — 15 “If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 “The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.”

Romans 10:5–10 (LEB) — 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does this will live by it.” 6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[Studyman]

There are many who think themselves to be Christians, but have never truly believed. “Know” in biblical and theological terms means to be in close, intimate, relationship. In physical contexts, in mean sexual intimacy. In spiritual contexts, in means spiritual relationships that are intimate.



It doesn’t mean that he is ignorant of who they are. An omniscient being has intellectual awareness about everything and everyone!


Doug

True,

It means he doesn't "Know" them, as in, like you pointed out, they have no deep, heartfelt, intimate respect and honor and love for His God and Father, shown by their refusal to "yield themselves" to Him and submit to "His" Righteousness. Or as Jesus teaches "Live By" His Word.

If they truly "knew" God, they wouldn't "work iniquity" while teaching in His Son's Name.

As it is written about those who fell in the Wilderness, who didn't believe the Gospel of Christ when God showed it to them,"they honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me".

"On them, severity".

Isn't this the message of Paul in Romans 11?

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

No man is not imprisoned by unbelief

Yes we are, Paul declares that about the elect but its true of the non elect as well Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The word concluded sygkleiō:

1. to shut up together, enclose
   
   1. of a shoal of fishes in a net
2. to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

b. to shup up on all sides, shut up completely; τινα εἰς τινα or τί, so to deliver one up to the power of a person or thing that he is completely shut in, as it were, without means of escape: τινα εἰς ἀπείθειαν, Romans 11:32

So one translation reads:


For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may have mercy on all.csb

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jew and Gentile alike].

32 for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness. ylt

 

[TedT]

I am not familiar with the “PCE” (which I am guessing means Presbyterian Church of England, but that may not be correct),

PCE in all my writings stands for Pre-Conception Existence theology and nothing else. We have gone over all this before...

The idea that “ a holy GOD going against HIMself by creating sinners by means of HIS boy Adam according to HIS will” is perfectly consistent with the meticulous predetermination of Calvinism!

And after I so strongly repudiate this theology of complete predeterminism of everything you still want to label me Calvinist? Why waste your time? Why the inflexibility?

How does one make a decision before they exist, much less “before the creation of the physical universe…”?

No one exists before they exist nor can do anything before they exist. This is why I do not use the misnomer of "pre-existence" to refer to our existence as spirits in the spirit realms before the creation of the physical realm.

Another way to think of pce theology is to refer to this time as our pre-earth existence....the time of election, reprobation and our pre-sinful free will sometimes referred to as before the foundation of the world. It is not existence before we existed...

Now before you get too all het up, The bible tells us that at the sight of the creation of the physical universe Job 38:7 [that]
...the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Berean Standard Bible
IF you keep insisting that the only creation was the physical creation then you are obviously irrationally contending that some people sang HIS praises before their creation against all logic!
I am contending that all the sons of GOD refers in fact to ALL the sons of GOD, all the people HE ever created. That means that if you are a created son of GOD then you were there singing your heart out for HIS glory!!! It also means I have stronger support in the bible for our pre-conception existence than you do for being created by your conception in the womb.

Infants are sinful in nature , but are not culpable for their condition until they knowingly and willingly sin.

IF infants are sinful by their created nature as humans as you say then the holy GOD does create evil people, and you are the Calvinist!
And, if they are not culpable for their condition, then why are the consequences of being culpable for that condition visited upon them, that is, death and suffering??? Proverbs 17:15 Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent, the Lord detests them both.

And IF...Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! To highlight: if we were enemies at His death then this implies that our enmity with HIM was before our supposed creation so either HE created us as evil by HIS eternal plan as the Calvinists contend
OR
we were created as innocents pre-earth and in sheol we made our true free will decisions to reject all or part of HIS purpose for us and self created ourselves as HIS enemies BEFORE our sinful life on earth needing reconciliation by the death of HIS Son.

I notice you do not try to eisegete Matt 13:36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
An explanation of a metaphor that is itself a metaphor only extends the metaphor, it does not explain it or reveal its hidden meaning. Therefore such an explanation must not have any literary device in it, no hyperbole nor metaphor in it at all. It would have to be able to be taken at plain face value.
37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil,
in which Christ clearly says people are SOWN, not created, into mankind and are already sinners when this happens, both the sinful people of the kingdom who are never under condemnation and the demonic reprobate who are condemned already as per Jn 3:18...

The Son of Man sows the people of the kingdom into the world. The devils sows the people of the evil one into the world. That means they are separated into these groups before they get sown / born into this world...and for those who need the reminder, to sow does not mean to create but to move from a storage bin to a field for growing.

 

[TibiasDad]

PCE in all my writings stands for Pre-Conception Existence theology and nothing else. We have gone over all this before...

I must have been asleep, because I don’t recall ever hearing this term, PCE, much less “going over all this before.”
But this said, I don’t believe that we exist prior to conception, much less that any kind of moral awareness or obligation to choose.

And after I so strongly repudiate this theology of complete predeterminism of everything you still want to label me Calvinist? Why waste your time? Why the inflexibility?

I honestly don’t recall this…but if you did, congratulations!

No one exists before they exist nor can do anything before they exist. This is why I do not use the misnomer of "pre-existence" to refer to our existence as spirits in the spirit realms before the creation of the physical realm.

So “No one exists before they exist nor can do anything before they exist”, but yet we have an “existence as spirits in the spirit realms before the creation of the physical realm.” O what a tangled web…


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

IF infants are sinful by their created nature as humans as you say then the holy GOD does create evil people

God created Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve sinned and were corrupted in their nature separating themselves from God and by extension the race that they would procreate.

All offspring of Adam are now corrupted by sin and are born prone to sin.

God did not create an evil people. He created a peccable creation; one with the freedom and power of choice. We chose sin and became sinful.


Doug

 

[TedT]

God created Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve sinned and were corrupted in their nature separating themselves from God and by extension the race that they would procreate.

All offspring of Adam are now corrupted by sin and are born prone to sin.

God did not create an evil people. He created a peccable creation; one with the freedom and power of choice. We chose sin and became sinful.


Doug

This only means that GOD caused all of mankind to be sinful, ie, liable to suffering and death, by creating them into Adam rather than as individuals like the angels...

Was Michael sinful because Satan sinned?? Of course not so why would the LOVING GOD WHO CAN DO DO NO HARM MAKE US HUMANS EVIL IN ADAM BECAUSE HE SINNED, liable to death etc, by putting us in / under ADAM'S SIN???? Your theology has no rationality nor holiness!!!

 

[TedT]

He created a peccable creation;

HE did not just create us pecable... According to you, HE created us, me and thee, liable to the consequences of being sinful, ie, death and suffering!!! How can you ignore that??? Infants in the womb die proving their sinfulness but you ignore what that means about how that can be anything but sinfulness!!!!!!

 

[TibiasDad]

HE did not just create us pecable... According to you, HE created us, me and thee, liable to the consequences of being sinful, ie, death and suffering!!! How can you ignore that??? Infants in the womb die proving their sinfulness but you ignore what that means about how that can be anything but sinfulness!!!!!!

There are two types of death; physical and spiritual. The effect of Adam’s sin was a corporate effect, Adam being the representative for the whole of the species. So both physical death and spiritual separation/broken relationship with God, came upon the whole of the race.

Physical death is the ultimate and certain result for all; spiritual separation is the state of all who are human. Spiritual death, the ultimate fate of all who refuse to believe. Spiritual death is based solely upon what we do, on our actual acts of sin. Not for our father’s sins, as Ezekiel clearly states.

Adam was peccable, and fell! Not necessarily or by design, but by his own choice. His actions affects all that follow him, and effected a certainty from which none can escape; we will all sin and fall short of the glory of God. We are born out of relationship with God.

God did not create us out of relationship with Him, quite the opposite! But that state ended with Adam!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

This only means that GOD caused all of mankind to be sinful, ie, liable to suffering and death, by creating them into Adam rather than as individuals like the angels...

Procreation is not creation proper. Adam was created to procreate through and with his wife. God gave mankind the capacity to reproduce their kind through the divinely ordained process. All that Adam and Eve were is passed on to their offspring, including their being disenfranchised from relationship with God.

Was Michael sinful because Satan sinned??

Angels don’t procreate or even marry. They are created differently from us.

Of course not so why would the LOVING GOD WHO CAN DO DO NO HARM MAKE US HUMANS EVIL IN ADAM BECAUSE HE SINNED, liable to death etc, by putting us in / under ADAM'S SIN???? Your theology has no rationality nor holiness!!!

Your explanation is, in my humble opinion, shallow and short sighted. It doesn’t account for the fullness of God’s nature and character. Because God is Love, doesn’t mean that God is incapable of doing harm. You do remember the flood!

God, in love, set parameters and the consequences very clearly before man/Adam; in the day you eat of it you will surely die! The whole of the human race spiritually dies when the legal representative of his race falls in sin.

I would argue that God’s love is shown by his allowance of man’s capacity of sinning and power to choose for himself how he will respond to God. And love is shown by God choosing to “not hold man’s sins against him” and sending Christ to redeem that which was lost.

So again, God did not make us evil; we did that to ourselves by willfully sinning. The effects of Adam’s sin are passed on to the race that he represents, just as Christ’s righteousness is passed to those he represents.

Doug

 

[TedT]

So again, God did not make us evil; we did that to ourselves by willfully sinning.

I do strongly agree with the higher calling of faith in a HOLY GOD who does not make or do any evil but I cannot agree with the Churches who then teach that HE makes us subject to the consequences of sin while we are innocents of any free will decision to sin, ie, as infants in the womb, just to avoid the idea that we had a life existence previous to our earthly existence in the heavens wherein as spirits we chose our own fate and some became sinners and were sent to earth to live with other sinners, Matt 13:27-30, to experience the results of sinfulness.

 

[TedT]

Your explanation is, in my humble opinion, shallow and short sighted. It doesn’t account for the fullness of God’s nature and character. Because God is Love, doesn’t mean that God is incapable of doing harm. You do remember the flood!

No innocents died in the flood. All were evil and violent in HIS sight. To equate HIS wrath against evil to be the same as subjecting innocent babies to the same fate and call it love is slanderous.

Love does no harm to the innocent. To believe it does is the real shallow and short sighted view chosen to sustain false theology...
Proverbs 17:15 Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent, the Lord detests them both.

 

[TomL]

@TomL



Yes we are, Paul declares that about the elect but its true of the non elect as well Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The word concluded sygkleiō:

1. to shut up together, enclose
   1. of a shoal of fishes in a net
2. to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

b. to shup up on all sides, shut up completely; τινα εἰς τινα or τί, so to deliver one up to the power of a person or thing that he is completely shut in, as it were, without means of escape: τινα εἰς ἀπείθειαν, Romans 11:32

So one translation reads:


For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may have mercy on all.csb

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jew and Gentile alike].

32 for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness. ylt

In context the reference is to hardened Jews.

Romans 11:25–31 (LEB) — 25 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved, just as it is written, “The deliverer will come out of Zion; he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 27 And this is the covenant from me with them when I take away their sins.” 28 With respect to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you formerly were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of the disobedience of these, 31 so also these have now been disobedient for your mercy, in order that they also may now be shown mercy.

All will be granted mercy

 

[brightfame52]

In context the reference is to hardened Jews.

Romans 11:25–31 (LEB) — 25 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved, just as it is written, “The deliverer will come out of Zion; he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 27 And this is the covenant from me with them when I take away their sins.” 28 With respect to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you formerly were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of the disobedience of these, 31 so also these have now been disobedient for your mercy, in order that they also may now be shown mercy.

All will be granted mercy

All are locked up in unbelief both Jews and gentiles, that is Paul's point!

 

[TomL]

All are locked up in unbelief both Jews and gentiles, that is Paul's point!

Sorry the gentile believers are there

Romans 11:17–24 (LEB) — 17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although you were a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the root of the olive tree’s richness, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you boast against them, you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off in order that I could be grafted in.” 20 Well said! They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand firm because of faith. Do not think arrogant thoughts, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity upon those who have fallen, but upon you the kindness of God—if you continue in his kindness, for otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And those also, if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[TibiasDad]

I do strongly agree with the higher calling of faith in a HOLY GOD who does not make or do any evil but I cannot agree with the Churches who then teach that HE makes us subject to the consequences of sin while we are innocents of any free will decision to sin, ie, as infants in the womb, just to avoid the idea that we had a life existence previous to our earthly existence in the heavens wherein as spirits we chose our own fate and some became sinners and were sent to earth to live with other sinners, Matt 13:27-30, to experience the results of sinfulness.

God does not make us anything; Adam’s actions did, and as the entirety of the rest of the human race was within him at that point, we are subject to the effects of Adam’s actions upon him. We are separated from a personal, intimate relationship with God.

As for “just to avoid the idea that we had a life existence previous to our earthly existence in the heavens wherein as spirits we chose our own fate and some became sinners and were sent to earth to live with other sinners”, I am not avoiding anything, as I have told you that I do not believe such rhetoric and find no support for such an argument in scripture, especially the parable of the Weeds.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry the gentile believers are there

Romans 11:17–24 (LEB) — 17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although you were a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the root of the olive tree’s richness, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you boast against them, you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off in order that I could be grafted in.” 20 Well said! They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand firm because of faith. Do not think arrogant thoughts, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity upon those who have fallen, but upon you the kindness of God—if you continue in his kindness, for otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And those also, if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

All are locked up in unbelief both Jews and gentiles, that is Paul's point! Rom 11:32 is about jew and gentile, that's why He says all meaning both groups, yet its only the election of grace in each group, and all of the election of grace within both groups will obtain mercy applied to them, and so in this manner all Israel shall be saved Vs 26 not national israel, Spiritual Israel the Body of Christ.