360watt
Active Member
Round and round we go with this..
The worship Jesus received was beyond a subject to a king. Far beyond it.
The worship the Lamb receives in Revelation is God worship... THE God.
Educating unitarians on biblical worship
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Round and round we go with this..
The worship Jesus received was beyond a subject to a king. Far beyond it.
The worship the Lamb receives in Revelation is God worship... THE God.
Indeed Christ should be worshipped.
John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Rev 5:8–14When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
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amazing grace
Active Member
Round and round we go - for at least 2000 years and before the debate on the deity of Christ Jesus continues -----
Worshipping ---- giving respect, honor, and reverence to someone does not make that someone God ---- that is WRONG doctrinal teaching.
The most common Greek word used for worship is proskyneō - 1. to kiss the hand (towards) one, in token of reverence; 2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence; 3. in the NT by keeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication: a. used of homage shown to men and being of superior rank - to the Jewish high priest, to God, to Christ, to heavenly beings, to demons. [Strong's #G4352]
The Greek word for worship given ONLY to God, distinguishing it from reverence for others, is latreia, meaning divine service or worship, while proskyneo means to bow down/show homage and can refer to humans or angels, though it's also used for God. In the New Testament, latreuo (the verb form) is used in contexts emphasizing serving God alone (e.g., Luke 4:8), highlighting the unique, devotion due only to the divine. [Strong's #G4352; #G3000]
Luke 4:8 uses both but the serving/service is due God only.
And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship (proskyneo) the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve (latreuo).’”
Idolatry would be worshipping something or someone AS God who is NOT God.
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uh. Satan being unaware of the One preexisting as God being incarnate as Jesus changes the scenario from the unitarian concepts. Jesus being incarnate speaks from his humanity and quoting scripture in that context. The idea is whether a man should worship Satan or the Father. The choice is obvious while being unsupportive of a unitarian revisionist reading.
John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
amazing grace
Active Member
Yea, I understood clearly what that verse was referencing but since the verse carried both words used for 'worship' --- I was using it to show there the difference in proskyneo - general worship and latreuo worship reserved for God only.
You misunderstood my reasoning as usual.
amazing grace
Active Member
Just as what I have previously stated elsewhere:
We are to honor the Son just as we honor the Father --- whoever doesn't honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
I would relate that to worship.
Amen
Runningman
Active Member
John 5:23 is in regards to judgement only. Honor the judgements of Jesus just as one would honor the judgements of God.
John 5
22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 5:22–23 (NASB 95) — 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Um, regarding judgment, all is given to Christ. The Father does not judge anyone.
Further, we see the Father's intention is that all honor the Son even as they honor him, and if they fail to honor the son they have failed to honor him.
Runningman
Active Member
God already has inherent sovereign judgement to do so with as He pleases. Jesus didn't. See the difference? Means Jesus isn't God. We don't worship people who aren't God right?
No
According to the text
John 5:22–23 (NASB 95) — 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Um, regarding judgment, all is given to Christ. The Father does not judge anyone.
Further, we see the Father's intention is that all honor the Son even as they honor him, and if they fail to honor the son they have failed to honor him.
Runningman
Active Member
Refers to delegated judgement, hence "all judgement has been given" to him. People who are given things didn't have what they were given before they were given it right? So the "Son" in your trinity didn't inherently have all judgement power. This indicates either the trinity is false or it is not correct according to what is considered "orthodox" by the trinitarian sect.
So you imagine all judgment and honor is given to a mere mortal man. Show the readers where scripture grants such to a mere mortal man
According to the text
John 5:22–23 (NASB 95) — 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Um, regarding judgment, all is given to Christ. The Father does not judge anyone.
Further, we see the Father's intention is that all honor the Son even as they honor him, and if they fail to honor the son they have failed to honor him.
And you think such can be true of a mere mortal man?
Runningman
Active Member
You can't change Jesus was given something he didn't already have. God already had it, Jesus didn't. Not everything is an argument. Somethings should just be you sitting quietly, nodding, and learning. Try it sometime. Check mate. Jesus isn't God.
Um
Philippians 2:6–7 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
John 1:1–3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Col 1:16–17 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Heb 1:2–3 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Runningman
Active Member
In all of Scripture Jesus never inherently had anything. Everything he had, from his very existence, to his resurrection, his exaltation, and eventual removal from the right hand of God are not his doing.
Really?
Col 1:16–17 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”
Runningman
Active Member
Refers to the context of the church. Keep reading.
Colossians 1
20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.
No reference to Jesus here at all.
Jesus became that through a perfection process. It wasn't immediate.
Hebrews 5
9And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him
This refers to Jesus' God, not Jesus.
Really?
Col 1:16–17 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Runningman
Refers to the context of the church. Keep reading.
Col 1:16–17 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Christ not the church created all things in the heavens and the earth
and of course we have continued reference to Christ
Colossians 1:18–20 (NASB 95) — 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Hebrews 5:7–10 (NASB 95) — 7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
Clearly not the Father but Christ
Again read the text
Hebrews 1:6–12 (NASB 95) — 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7 And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
Col 1:16–17 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Runningman
Refers to the context of the church. Keep reading.
He is Christ, not the church
Col 1:16–17 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Christ not the church created all things in the heavens and the earth
and of course we have continued reference to Christ
Colossians 1:18–20 (NASB 95) — 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Seriously?
Hebrews 5:7–10 (NASB 95) — 7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
Clearly not the Father but Christ
Runningman:This refers to Jesus' God, not Jesus.
Again read the text
Hebrews 1:6–12 (NASB 95) — 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7 And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
