Easily dispelling unitarianism

civic · Aug 5, 2023

2 plural nouns (Elohim for God & Adonai for Lord) are applied to God in the O.T. which in English are both God and Lord. Most often they are always plural when applied to God. These 2 plural nouns for God are the two most frequently used nouns of God in the O. T.

3 plural pronouns (We, Us, Our) see Genesis 1:26; Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:7; Isaiah 6:8.

Trinity: plural references to God in the Old Testament:
Plural nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs

	Grammatical Plurality & Yahweh
.Click here for a detailed discussion of plurals applied to God in the Old Testament		Nouns: God - elohim, Lord - adonai Pronouns: We, Us, Our Adjectives: holy Verbs: creates, makes, wanders, reveals, judges

God is one in unity, but three persons:
"Let US make man in OUR image". (Gen 1:26)
Click here for detailed outline of Gen 1:26

Introduction:

A. 5 key pieces of evidence of the trinity because of plural references to God:

Two plural nouns are applied to God: God and Lord, are almost always plural when applied to God. These two plural nouns (God - elohim, Lord - adonai) are the two most frequently used nouns of God in the Old Testament.
Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages: Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8.

Click here for detailed outline of these passages

Five plural verbs are applied to God: creates, makes, wanders, reveals, judges. In English, these plural verse do not indicate a plural persons, "God creates". But the plurality of Hebrew verbs follow the noun. This is not the case in English. This plurality of verbs associated with God, is most striking and unusual to those who read Hebrew.
Plural adjectives that describe God: "holy". Again, this is a function of Hebrew grammar that does not exist in English. The plurality of adjectives is tagged to the associated noun, which in this case is God. It is most unusual to have a plural adjective describing God.
Single verses that contain both singular and plural references to the same person.

B. Why this is proof of Trinity in the Old Testament:

Anti-Trinitarians and Unitarians alike, try to explain away the plural references to God in the Old Testament: "Let

US make man in OUR image". (Gen 1:26)

While Trinitarians expect to find such plural pronouns and verbs used in reference to God at face value, anti-Trinitarians fall all over themselves trying to find a way to avoid the obvious truth that there are three persons in the one God.
As we will see, all of the Anti-Trinitarian arguments are invalid leaving us with no other conclusion then the fact that God is a plurality of persons, just as the Biblical trinity teaches.
The trinity was hidden in the Old Testament until Christ came and the earliest Christians began to "search the (Old Testament) scriptures daily" (Acts 17:11) to see if Paul's claim that Jesus of Nazareth, was the direct subject of prophecy. We have no doubt that Paul would point out the six passages where God is refereed to with plural pronouns. (We, Us, Our)
God’s oneness is conveyed by personal pronouns like He, Him, His, I, Myself, Me. The trinity is witnessed in the Old Testament by personal pronouns like We, Us, Ours.

C. The apostolic Fathers unanimously taught that the "we" in Gen 1:26, refers to the trinity:

74 AD Epistle of Barnabas: "For the Scripture says concerning us, while

He speaks to the Son, "Let Us make man after Our image, and after Our likeness" (Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter VI.—The Sufferings of Christ, and the New Covenant, Were Announced by the Prophets.)

150 AD Justin Martyr: Speaking of Jewish theologians Justin calls the Jewish teaching that God spoke to angels a hersey: "In saying, therefore, ‘as one of us, ’[Moses] has declared that [there is a certain] number of persons associated with one another, and that they are at least two. For I would not say that the

dogma of that heresy which is said to be among you (The Jews had their own heresies which supplied many things to the Christian heresies) is true, or that the teachers of it can prove that [God] spoke to angels, or that the human frame was the workmanship of angels. But this Offspring, which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures." (Dialogue of Justin Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew: Chapter LXII.—The Words "Let Us Make Man")

180 AD Irenaeus "

It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor any one else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, "Let Us make man after Our image and likeness; " [Gen. 1:26]" (Against Heresies 4:20:1).

200 AD Tertullian: "

If the number of the Trinity also offends you, as if it were not connected in the simple Unity, I ask you how it is possible for a Being who is merely and absolutely One and Singular, to speak in plural phrase, saying, "Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness; " whereas He ought to have said, "Let me make man in my own image, and after my own likeness," as being a unique and singular Being? In the following passage, however, "Behold the man is become as one of us," He is either deceiving or amusing us in speaking plurally, if He is One only and singular. Or was it to the angels that He spoke, as the Jews interpret the passage, because these also acknowledge not the Son? Or was it because He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, that He spoke to Himself in plural terms, making Himself plural on that very account? Nay, it was because He had already His Son close at His side, as a second Person, His own Word, and a third Person also, the Spirit in the Word, that He purposely adopted the plural phrase, "Let us make; "and, "in our image; "and, "become as one of us." (Tertullian, Against Praxeas, Chapter XII. Other Quotations from Holy Scripture Adduced in Proof of the Plurality of Persons in the Godhead.)

200 AD Tertullian: Tertullian rejects the idea that God was speaking to Angels because our head is the creator, not a creature: "Since then he is the image of the Creator (for He,

when looking on Christ His Word, who was to become man, said, "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness"), how can I possibly have another head but Him whose image I am? For if I am the image of the Creator there is no room in me for another head" (Tertullian, Book V, Elucidations, Chapter VIII.—Man the Image of the Creator, and Christ the Head of the Man.)

200 AD Tertullian: "In the first place, because all things were made by the Word of God, and without Him was nothing made. Now the flesh, too, had its existence from the Word of God, because of the principle, that here should be nothing without that Word. "Let us make man," said He, before He created him, and added, "with our hand," for the sake of his pre-eminence, that so he might not be compared with the rest of creation." (Tertullian: On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Elucidations, Chapter V.—Some Considerations in Reply Eulogistic of the Flesh. It Was Created by God.)
Origen: "it was to Him that God said regarding the creation of man, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness." (Origen Against Celsus, Book V, Chapter XXXVII)
Novatian: "For who does not acknowledge that the person of the Son is second after the Father, when he reads that it was said by the Father, consequently to the Son, "Let us make man in our image and our likeness; " and that after this it was related, "And God made man, in the image of God made He him? "Or when he holds in his hands: "The Lord rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah fire and brimstone from the Lord from heaven? " (A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, Chapter XXVI. Argument.—Moreover, Against the Sabellians He Proves that the Father is One, the Son Another.)
Constitutions of the Holy Apostles: "the divine Scripture testifies that God said to Christ, His only-begotten, "Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness. And God made man: after the image of God made He him; male and female made He them."(Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book V., VII)

I. Angels are not included in "we" and "us":

A. Anti-Trinitarians claim that when God said, "Let US make man in OUR image". (Gen 1:26) he was speaking to angels.

Angels are not created in the image of God, only man.
If angels are included in "Let US make", then angels AND God are equally our creator.
Jehovah’s Witnesses actually get this one right: The US includes (at least) the Father and Jesus in this creation. Jesus, being God, is the creator of all things: "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. " John 1:3
Hebrews 1:5 proves Jehovah’s Witnesses false teachers when they say Jesus is an angel: "

For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me"? " (Hebrews 1:5) Of course the answer is rhetorical: God never said to any angels "Today I have begotten You". But he did say this to Jesus. Therefore Jesus cannot be an angel, but we begotten at his resurrection as Acts 13:33 says, thereby fulfilling Ps 2:7.

The self contradictory doctrine of the Watchtower has Jesus the creature, functioning as our co-creator (Jn 1:3; Col 1:16). But this violates Rom 1:25: "worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator". This passage teaches that if Jesus is the creator, as the Bible says he is, then he cannot be a creature. Jesus cannot be creator and creature at the same time!

B. Biblical examples of conversations between God and Angels never use the words We/US.

The very best example is in Gen 18 where Yahweh and two angels visit Abraham. Here is a case where God is consulting with two angels and DOES NOT USE US. Three went down to do joint work, but God uses the singular "I" over and over again when actually talking to the two angels! If ever there should be a precedent for US/WE/OUR including God and angels, this would be it. But Anti-Trinitarians are most disappointed that the singular "I" is used. The power of this example proves the other US/WE/OUR do not include angels: "Then the [three] men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. Yahweh said, "Shall I [not we] hide from Abraham what I am about to do, " Genesis 18:16-17 click for more on Gen 18 & 19
"Micaiah said, "Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw

the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. "The Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. "Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ "The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’ " (1 Kings 22:19-22)

"Bless the Lord, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word! Bless the Lord, all you His hosts, You who serve Him, doing His will." Psalm 103:20-21
""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. " Daniel 7:10
The only example of a plural pronoun is one that includes God and men, never angels: ""Come now, and

let us [God and man] reason together," Says the Lord, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow" Isaiah 1:18

II. Plural and singular nouns applied to God: "God, Lord"

	Singular	Plural
God: El, Elohim	"El" Gen. 33:20, Num 23:19	Elohim: (used 4000 times)
Lord: Adonai	Examples? (Almost always plural)	Adonai: Gen 18:30; Ex 34:23; Deut 10:17; Joshua 3:11,13; Ps 45:11; 114:7; 135:5; Mal 1:6

The two most frequently used words (God and Lord) that refer to God in the Old Testament are almost always plural!
Singular nouns are quite rarely used: El:
a. God (el - singular) is not a man, that He should lie (Numbers 23:19)
b. Then he erected there an altar and called it El-Elohe-Israel [God, the God of Israel]. (Gen. 33:20)
We don't know of any examples of "Lord" applied to God in the singular.
"And if I am a master [plural adonai], where is My respect? says the Lord of hosts" Mal 1:6

III. Both singular and plural pronouns used of God:

	Singular pronouns	Plural pronouns
I, we	"I" Isa 6:8	"We" Isa 6:8
Myself, Us	"Myself" Gen 9:9	"Us" Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8
Me, Our	"Me" Zech 12:10	"Our" Gen 1:26

There are four passages where God speaks for Himself and uses plural pronouns: Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8. (We, Us, Our)

"Then God [

plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26

"Then Yahweh God [

plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22

"Come, let Us [

plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech." Genesis 11:7

"Then I heard the voice of the Lord [

plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8

IV. Plural and singular verbs applied to God: "create, make, wander, revealed, judges"

	Singular	Plural
Creator: Bara	Isaiah 40:28	Ecclesiastes 12:1
Maker: Asah	Genesis 1:7	Gen 1:26; Ps 149:2; Job 35:10; Isa 54:5
Husband: Baal	?	Isa 54:5
wander	?	Genesis 20:13
revealed	?	Genesis 35:7
judges	?	Psalm 58:11

Creator: Bara
a. God is called Creator (singular of bara) Isaiah 40:28
b. "Remember also your Creator [

plural form of bara] in the days of your youth" Eccl 12:1

Maker: Asah
a. "Let Us [

plural pronoun] make [plural of asah] man in Our [plural pronoun] image [singular], according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness [singular]" Genesis 1:26
b. "Let Israel be glad in his Maker [plural form of asah]" Psalm 149:2
c. "Where is God [plural, elohim] my Maker [plural form of asah]" Job 35:10
d. "For your husband [plural, baal] is your Maker [plural form of asah]" Isaiah 54:5

"God [

plural, elohim] caused me to wander [hitau, plural form of taau] from my father’s house" Genesis 20:13

"He built an altar there, and called the place El-bethel, because there God [

plural, elohim] had revealed [plural form of gla] Himself to him when he fled from his brother." Genesis 35:7

"Surely there is a God [

plural, elohim] who judges [plural form of shaphat] on earth!" Psalm 58:11

V. Plural adjectives that describe God: "holy"

"You will not be able to serve Yahweh, for He is a holy [

plural form of qadosh] God [plural, elohim]." Joshua 24:19

"And the knowledge of the Holy [

plural form of qadosh] One is understanding." Proverbs 9:10

"Nor do I have the knowledge of the Holy [

plural form of qadosh] One. " Proverbs 30:3

VI. Single verses that contain both singular and plural references to the same being.

text	who	Singular refers to class of being	Plural refers to individuals within that class
Isaiah 6:8	God	Whom shall I send (Divine spokesman representing all)	for Us (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
Gen 1:27	Man	"created him" (mankind)	"created them" (male and female)
Mark 5:9	Demon	"My name is Legion" (demonic spokesman representing all)	"we are many" (A full Roman legion had 6,826 men. They were cast into 2000 swine. Perhaps multiple demons can inhabit both man and pig.)

Conclusion:

A. The evidence that "Let US make man in OUR image". (Gen 1:26) refers to the Trinity is irrefutable.

The unanimous interpretation of all the apostolic fathers from 100 - 300 AD was that the US of Gen 1:26 referred to the trinity. They all viewed the Father talking to the Son and the Holy Spirit. They specifically rejected the notion of God talking to the angels. Of course they never discuss the concept of plural of majesty, for it did not exist at this time.
The Unitarians and Christadelphians are wrong because they say Us refers to God and the Angels. But man is not created in the image of angels, but of God. Jesus is not included in their view of US.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses do include Jesus and the Father in the US of Gen 1:26, but make Jesus the created arch-angel Michael. But Heb 1:5 proves Jesus cannot be, nor ever has been an angel. Further, in their self contradictory doctrine, they have Jesus the creature, as our co-creator (Jn 1:3). But this violates Rom 1:25: "worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator". This passage teaches that if Jesus is the creator, as the Bible says he is, then he cannot be a creature. Jesus cannot be creator and creature at the same time!

B. Such occasional usage's of plural, nouns, verbs and adjectives of God, man and material objects, are best explained as typical and normal for the Hebrew language. Its just they way they expressed things at times.

C. The plural nouns and pro-nouns applied to God, like WE, US, OUR, Elohim, Adonai are powerful evidence of the Trinity hidden in the Old Testament, to be discovered after the coming of Christ. The almost exclusive use of the plural elohim for God and adonai for Lord, make a strong case that any honest seeker could see. This extensive pattern is irrefutable. By Steve Rudd

hope this helps !!!

synergy · Aug 5, 2023

civic said:
2 plural nouns (Elohim for God & Adonai for Lord) are applied to God in the O.T. which in English are both God and Lord. Most often they are always plural when applied to God. These 2 plural nouns for God are the two most frequently used nouns of God in the O. T.

3 plural pronouns (We, Us, Our) see Genesis 1:26; Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:7; Isaiah 6:8.

Trinity: plural references to God in the Old Testament:
Plural nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs

Grammatical Plurality & Yahweh
.Click here for a detailed discussion of plurals applied to God in the Old Testament Nouns: God - elohim, Lord - adonai
Pronouns: We, Us, Our
Adjectives: holy
Verbs: creates, makes, wanders, reveals, judges

God is one in unity, but three persons:
"Let US make man in OUR image". (Gen 1:26)
Click here for detailed outline of Gen 1:26

Introduction:

A. 5 key pieces of evidence of the trinity because of plural references to God:

Two plural nouns are applied to God: God and Lord, are almost always plural when applied to God. These two plural nouns (God - elohim, Lord - adonai) are the two most frequently used nouns of God in the Old Testament.

Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages: Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8.

Click here for detailed outline of these passages

Five plural verbs are applied to God: creates, makes, wanders, reveals, judges. In English, these plural verse do not indicate a plural persons, "God creates". But the plurality of Hebrew verbs follow the noun. This is not the case in English. This plurality of verbs associated with God, is most striking and unusual to those who read Hebrew.

Plural adjectives that describe God: "holy". Again, this is a function of Hebrew grammar that does not exist in English. The plurality of adjectives is tagged to the associated noun, which in this case is God. It is most unusual to have a plural adjective describing God.

Single verses that contain both singular and plural references to the same person.

B. Why this is proof of Trinity in the Old Testament:

Anti-Trinitarians and Unitarians alike, try to explain away the plural references to God in the Old Testament: "Let

US make man in OUR image". (Gen 1:26)

While Trinitarians expect to find such plural pronouns and verbs used in reference to God at face value, anti-Trinitarians fall all over themselves trying to find a way to avoid the obvious truth that there are three persons in the one God.

As we will see, all of the Anti-Trinitarian arguments are invalid leaving us with no other conclusion then the fact that God is a plurality of persons, just as the Biblical trinity teaches.

The trinity was hidden in the Old Testament until Christ came and the earliest Christians began to "search the (Old Testament) scriptures daily" (Acts 17:11) to see if Paul's claim that Jesus of Nazareth, was the direct subject of prophecy. We have no doubt that Paul would point out the six passages where God is refereed to with plural pronouns. (We, Us, Our)

God’s oneness is conveyed by personal pronouns like He, Him, His, I, Myself, Me. The trinity is witnessed in the Old Testament by personal pronouns like We, Us, Ours.

C. The apostolic Fathers unanimously taught that the "we" in Gen 1:26, refers to the trinity:

74 AD Epistle of Barnabas: "For the Scripture says concerning us, while

He speaks to the Son, "Let Us make man after Our image, and after Our likeness" (Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter VI.—The Sufferings of Christ, and the New Covenant, Were Announced by the Prophets.)

150 AD Justin Martyr: Speaking of Jewish theologians Justin calls the Jewish teaching that God spoke to angels a hersey: "In saying, therefore, ‘as one of us, ’[Moses] has declared that [there is a certain] number of persons associated with one another, and that they are at least two. For I would not say that the

dogma of that heresy which is said to be among you (The Jews had their own heresies which supplied many things to the Christian heresies) is true, or that the teachers of it can prove that [God] spoke to angels, or that the human frame was the workmanship of angels. But this Offspring, which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures." (Dialogue of Justin Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew: Chapter LXII.—The Words "Let Us Make Man")

180 AD Irenaeus "

It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor any one else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, "Let Us make man after Our image and likeness; " [Gen. 1:26]" (Against Heresies 4:20:1).

200 AD Tertullian: "

If the number of the Trinity also offends you, as if it were not connected in the simple Unity, I ask you how it is possible for a Being who is merely and absolutely One and Singular, to speak in plural phrase, saying, "Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness; " whereas He ought to have said, "Let me make man in my own image, and after my own likeness," as being a unique and singular Being? In the following passage, however, "Behold the man is become as one of us," He is either deceiving or amusing us in speaking plurally, if He is One only and singular. Or was it to the angels that He spoke, as the Jews interpret the passage, because these also acknowledge not the Son? Or was it because He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, that He spoke to Himself in plural terms, making Himself plural on that very account? Nay, it was because He had already His Son close at His side, as a second Person, His own Word, and a third Person also, the Spirit in the Word, that He purposely adopted the plural phrase, "Let us make; "and, "in our image; "and, "become as one of us." (Tertullian, Against Praxeas, Chapter XII. Other Quotations from Holy Scripture Adduced in Proof of the Plurality of Persons in the Godhead.)

200 AD Tertullian: Tertullian rejects the idea that God was speaking to Angels because our head is the creator, not a creature: "Since then he is the image of the Creator (for He,

when looking on Christ His Word, who was to become man, said, "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness"), how can I possibly have another head but Him whose image I am? For if I am the image of the Creator there is no room in me for another head" (Tertullian, Book V, Elucidations, Chapter VIII.—Man the Image of the Creator, and Christ the Head of the Man.)

200 AD Tertullian: "In the first place, because all things were made by the Word of God, and without Him was nothing made. Now the flesh, too, had its existence from the Word of God, because of the principle, that here should be nothing without that Word. "Let us make man," said He, before He created him, and added, "with our hand," for the sake of his pre-eminence, that so he might not be compared with the rest of creation." (Tertullian: On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Elucidations, Chapter V.—Some Considerations in Reply Eulogistic of the Flesh. It Was Created by God.)

Origen: "it was to Him that God said regarding the creation of man, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness." (Origen Against Celsus, Book V, Chapter XXXVII)

Novatian: "For who does not acknowledge that the person of the Son is second after the Father, when he reads that it was said by the Father, consequently to the Son, "Let us make man in our image and our likeness; " and that after this it was related, "And God made man, in the image of God made He him? "Or when he holds in his hands: "The Lord rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah fire and brimstone from the Lord from heaven? " (A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, Chapter XXVI. Argument.—Moreover, Against the Sabellians He Proves that the Father is One, the Son Another.)

Constitutions of the Holy Apostles: "the divine Scripture testifies that God said to Christ, His only-begotten, "Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness. And God made man: after the image of God made He him; male and female made He them."(Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book V., VII)

I. Angels are not included in "we" and "us":

A. Anti-Trinitarians claim that when God said, "Let US make man in OUR image". (Gen 1:26) he was speaking to angels.

Angels are not created in the image of God, only man.

If angels are included in "Let US make", then angels AND God are equally our creator.

Jehovah’s Witnesses actually get this one right: The US includes (at least) the Father and Jesus in this creation. Jesus, being God, is the creator of all things: "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. " John 1:3

Hebrews 1:5 proves Jehovah’s Witnesses false teachers when they say Jesus is an angel: "

For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me"? " (Hebrews 1:5) Of course the answer is rhetorical: God never said to any angels "Today I have begotten You". But he did say this to Jesus. Therefore Jesus cannot be an angel, but we begotten at his resurrection as Acts 13:33 says, thereby fulfilling Ps 2:7.

The self contradictory doctrine of the Watchtower has Jesus the creature, functioning as our co-creator (Jn 1:3; Col 1:16). But this violates Rom 1:25: "worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator". This passage teaches that if Jesus is the creator, as the Bible says he is, then he cannot be a creature. Jesus cannot be creator and creature at the same time!

B. Biblical examples of conversations between God and Angels never use the words We/US.

The very best example is in Gen 18 where Yahweh and two angels visit Abraham. Here is a case where God is consulting with two angels and DOES NOT USE US. Three went down to do joint work, but God uses the singular "I" over and over again when actually talking to the two angels! If ever there should be a precedent for US/WE/OUR including God and angels, this would be it. But Anti-Trinitarians are most disappointed that the singular "I" is used. The power of this example proves the other US/WE/OUR do not include angels: "Then the [three] men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. Yahweh said, "Shall I [not we] hide from Abraham what I am about to do, " Genesis 18:16-17 click for more on Gen 18 & 19

"Micaiah said, "Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw

the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. "The Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. "Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ "The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’ " (1 Kings 22:19-22)

"Bless the Lord, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word! Bless the Lord, all you His hosts, You who serve Him, doing His will." Psalm 103:20-21

""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. " Daniel 7:10

The only example of a plural pronoun is one that includes God and men, never angels: ""Come now, and

let us [God and man] reason together," Says the Lord, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow" Isaiah 1:18

II. Plural and singular nouns applied to God: "God, Lord"

Singular Plural
God: El, Elohim "El" Gen. 33:20, Num 23:19 Elohim: (used 4000 times)
Lord: Adonai Examples?
(Almost always plural) Adonai: Gen 18:30; Ex 34:23; Deut 10:17; Joshua 3:11,13; Ps 45:11; 114:7; 135:5; Mal 1:6

The two most frequently used words (God and Lord) that refer to God in the Old Testament are almost always plural!

Singular nouns are quite rarely used: El:
a. God (el - singular) is not a man, that He should lie (Numbers 23:19)
b. Then he erected there an altar and called it El-Elohe-Israel [God, the God of Israel]. (Gen. 33:20)

We don't know of any examples of "Lord" applied to God in the singular.

"And if I am a master [plural adonai], where is My respect? says the Lord of hosts" Mal 1:6

III. Both singular and plural pronouns used of God:

Singular pronouns Plural pronouns
I, we "I" Isa 6:8 "We" Isa 6:8
Myself, Us "Myself" Gen 9:9 "Us" Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8
Me, Our "Me" Zech 12:10 "Our" Gen 1:26

There are four passages where God speaks for Himself and uses plural pronouns: Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8. (We, Us, Our)

"Then God [

plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26

"Then Yahweh God [

plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22

"Come, let Us [

plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech." Genesis 11:7

"Then I heard the voice of the Lord [

plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8

IV. Plural and singular verbs applied to God: "create, make, wander, revealed, judges"

Singular Plural
Creator: Bara Isaiah 40:28 Ecclesiastes 12:1
Maker: Asah Genesis 1:7 Gen 1:26; Ps 149:2; Job 35:10; Isa 54:5
Husband: Baal ? Isa 54:5
wander ? Genesis 20:13
revealed ? Genesis 35:7
judges ? Psalm 58:11

Creator: Bara
a. God is called Creator (singular of bara) Isaiah 40:28
b. "Remember also your Creator [

plural form of bara] in the days of your youth" Eccl 12:1

Maker: Asah
a. "Let Us [

plural pronoun] make [plural of asah] man in Our [plural pronoun] image [singular], according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness [singular]" Genesis 1:26
b. "Let Israel be glad in his Maker [plural form of asah]" Psalm 149:2
c. "Where is God [plural, elohim] my Maker [plural form of asah]" Job 35:10
d. "For your husband [plural, baal] is your Maker [plural form of asah]" Isaiah 54:5

"God [

plural, elohim] caused me to wander [hitau, plural form of taau] from my father’s house" Genesis 20:13

"He built an altar there, and called the place El-bethel, because there God [

plural, elohim] had revealed [plural form of gla] Himself to him when he fled from his brother." Genesis 35:7

"Surely there is a God [

plural, elohim] who judges [plural form of shaphat] on earth!" Psalm 58:11

V. Plural adjectives that describe God: "holy"

"You will not be able to serve Yahweh, for He is a holy [

plural form of qadosh] God [plural, elohim]." Joshua 24:19

"And the knowledge of the Holy [

plural form of qadosh] One is understanding." Proverbs 9:10

"Nor do I have the knowledge of the Holy [

plural form of qadosh] One. " Proverbs 30:3

VI. Single verses that contain both singular and plural references to the same being.

text who Singular refers to class of being Plural refers to individuals within that class
Isaiah 6:8 God Whom shall I send (Divine spokesman representing all) for Us (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
Gen 1:27 Man "created him" (mankind) "created them" (male and female)
Mark 5:9 Demon "My name is Legion" (demonic spokesman representing all) "we are many" (A full Roman legion had 6,826 men. They were cast into 2000 swine. Perhaps multiple demons can inhabit both man and pig.)

Conclusion:

A. The evidence that "Let US make man in OUR image". (Gen 1:26) refers to the Trinity is irrefutable.

The unanimous interpretation of all the apostolic fathers from 100 - 300 AD was that the US of Gen 1:26 referred to the trinity. They all viewed the Father talking to the Son and the Holy Spirit. They specifically rejected the notion of God talking to the angels. Of course they never discuss the concept of plural of majesty, for it did not exist at this time.

The Unitarians and Christadelphians are wrong because they say Us refers to God and the Angels. But man is not created in the image of angels, but of God. Jesus is not included in their view of US.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses do include Jesus and the Father in the US of Gen 1:26, but make Jesus the created arch-angel Michael. But Heb 1:5 proves Jesus cannot be, nor ever has been an angel. Further, in their self contradictory doctrine, they have Jesus the creature, as our co-creator (Jn 1:3). But this violates Rom 1:25: "worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator". This passage teaches that if Jesus is the creator, as the Bible says he is, then he cannot be a creature. Jesus cannot be creator and creature at the same time!

B. Such occasional usage's of plural, nouns, verbs and adjectives of God, man and material objects, are best explained as typical and normal for the Hebrew language. Its just they way they expressed things at times.

C. The plural nouns and pro-nouns applied to God, like WE, US, OUR, Elohim, Adonai are powerful evidence of the Trinity hidden in the Old Testament, to be discovered after the coming of Christ. The almost exclusive use of the plural elohim for God and adonai for Lord, make a strong case that any honest seeker could see. This extensive pattern is irrefutable. By Steve Rudd

hope this helps !!!

Super job!

I created a new Thread under Churches and Denominations called "The continued spread of the Arian Heresy (that Jesus is not God) in JW and Unitarian Churches."

I approached it from a historical point of view, the fact that the heresy was exterminated many years ago by Saint Athanasius and that it's been unearthed from its burial plot by history-illiterate (and anti-Biblical) people such as JWs and Unitarians.

101G · Aug 15, 2023

civic said:
2 plural nouns (Elohim for God & Adonai for Lord) are applied to God in the O.T. which in English are both God and Lord. Most often they are always plural when applied to God. These 2 plural nouns for God are the two most frequently used nouns of God in the O. T.

is not "GOD" the LORD all cap. scripture, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" and is not the Lord is the same ONE PERSON as "LORD" who is GOD? yes, for H136 אֲדֹנָי 'Adonay (ad-o-noy')/Adonai is the emphatic form of H113 אָדוֹן 'adown (aw-done') which is the WE and the OUR in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, or RANK. so that eliminates any three or two persons.

civic said:
when looking on Christ His Word, who was to become man, said, "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness"), how can I possibly have another head but Him whose image I am? For if I am the image of the Creator there is no room in me for another head" (Tertullian, Book V, Elucidations, Chapter VIII.—Man the Image of the Creator, and Christ the Head of the Man.)

the Christ never said that. this is what the Lord Jesus the Christ said. Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,"
so, that's an ERROR

101G

Speculator · Aug 23, 2023

synergy said:
Super job!

I created a new Thread under Churches and Denominations called "The continued spread of the Arian Heresy (that Jesus is not God) in JW and Unitarian Churches."

I approached it from a historical point of view, the fact that the heresy was exterminated many years ago by Saint Athanasius and that it's been unearthed from its burial plot by history-illiterate (and anti-Biblical) people such as JWs and Unitarians.

I'll have to take a look at it. There's certainly is a lot of information on this forum.

civic · Aug 23, 2023

Speculator said:
I'll have to take a look at it. There's certainly is a lot of information on this forum.

Yes you can stay busy reading some of these threads for quite a while lol

Matthias · Sep 9, 2023

As a unitarian, I always look for threads like this when I read and/or join an online forum - which I’ve done since c. 1997. Why do I look for them?

To prove that that author(s) of such threads are mistaken? No. To re-examine, to re-evaluate, to reconsider my own unitarian faith. The author(s) of such pieces have done me a great service, and I thank him (them) them for it.

The OP is thorough, but I don’t see anything in it which I haven’t seen many times before. I remain both appreciative of the effort and unpersuaded by the arguments presented.

What is the best way for a unitarian to respond to such a large number of objections? In other words, what is the best way to eat an elephant? Answer: one bite at a time.

It takes a long time to eat an elephant. I’d like to begin my meal / response by addressing a very common argument: the Hebrew word elohim. But before I do I would like to ask @Johann - a trinitarian member of the forum - for his assistance. He wrote an important and impassioned piece about the Hebrew word about a year ago on another Internet discussion forum. I would like to use it here, with his permission.

civic · Sep 9, 2023

Matthias said:
As a unitarian, I always look for threads like this when I read and/or join an online forum - which I’ve done since c. 1997. Why do I look for them?

To prove that that author(s) of such threads are mistaken? No. To re-examine, to re-evaluate, to reconsider my own unitarian faith. The author(s) of such pieces have done me a great service, and I thank him (them) them for it.

The OP is thorough, but I don’t see anything in it which I haven’t seen many times before. I remain both appreciative of the effort and unpersuaded by the arguments presented.

What is the best way for a unitarian to respond to such a large number of objections? In other words, what is the best way to eat an elephant? Answer: one bite at a time.

It takes a long time to eat an elephant. I’d like to begin my meal / response by addressing a very common argument: the Hebrew word elohim. But before I do I would like to ask @Johann - a trinitarian member of the forum - for his assistance. He wrote an important and impassioned piece about the Hebrew word about a year ago on another Internet discussion forum. I would like to use it here, with his permission.

You can use it here since its not his material but one he sourced but may not of given credit to that source.

And I as a trinitarian appreciate you kind and cordial attitude. Thanks !

Just in case you might not know this forum was started by me and the administrator. I like to interact with the members and not moderate.

if you get the time check out our guide section where freedom of religious expression is what we are about, not lording our beliefs over others who disagree. We can all learn and grow from each other, defend our belief's while respecting those we are in disagreement with. This is what makes us distinct from other forums. You will notice we do not place JW's, Oneness etc... into any " cult " section. Thats not how we roll here. That is offensive and builds wall that are hard to break down.

I have been on forums for over 2 decades now and know what I like and dislike about them. Moderators in most places like to push there weight around and try to intimidate or even bully posters.

We basically have just one primary rule- The Golden Rule. If everyone is reminded of that from time to time regardless of religious' affiliation then things go really smooth.

We hope you enjoy your time here and feel respected and appreciated. That is the environment we strive for here. Also it would be really rare for someone to get banned here. Thats the last thing we want to see happen to anyone.

civic · Sep 9, 2023

@Matthias I added allot more to my last post lol.

Matthias · Sep 9, 2023

civic said:
@Matthias I added allot more to my last post lol.

So I see!

A member of this forum who is a friend of mine told me about it yesterday. At his invitation I decided to take a look at it. I really like the approach you are taking. I hope it goes well for you and I’ll be sure to tell others about it. This, in my opinion, is an excellent example of a discussion forum done right. I commend you and the administrator for it.

civic · Sep 9, 2023

Matthias said:
So I see!

A member of this forum who is a friend of mine told me about it yesterday. At his invitation I decided to take a look at it. I really like the approach you are taking. I hope it goes well for you and I’ll be sure to tell others about it. This, in my opinion, is an excellent example of a discussion forum done right. I commend you and the administrator for it.

Thanks I appreciate it @Matthias and feel free to spread the word.

Matthias · Sep 9, 2023

Based on the fact that elohim is a Hebrew word which is always plural in form, @Johann offered a literal translation of Deuteronomy 6:4 which renders the word plural in English translation:

”Hear, O Israel, Yahweh is our Gods …”

I don’t know of any English Bible translation which renders elohim as plural when it is used in reference to Yahweh.

”Gods” -> more than one god = polytheism. Neither trinitarianism nor unitarianism offers any support for that.

Elohim is always plural in form but can be either singular or plural in meaning depending on the context. (We have words which function like that in English too. For example, “deer”.)

Elohim, plural in form, plural in meaning -> gods.

Elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning -> God, god.

101G · Sep 9, 2023

Matthias said:
lohim is always plural in form but can be either singular or plural in meaning depending on the context. (We have words which function like that in English too. For example, “deer”.)

Elohim, plural in form, plural in meaning -> gods.

Elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning -> God, god.

thanks for the reply, a opening, maybe? 101G can clear up some of the mystery. Using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
God is Plural in an ECHAD OF "ONE", in "TIME", "PLACE", "ORDER" or "RANK". for H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') is the Plural of, of, of, H433. let's see it.

H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

NOTE: [plural of H433]
so, who is H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) n-m.
אֱלֹהַּ 'eloahh (el-o'-ah) [shortened (rarely)]
1. one with supreme strength and ability.
2. the Supreme Being, God the Creator, Yahweh by name.
3. a supreme entity, a god-like creature (that is, one of God's supreme creations, or one of man's inventions).
[probably prolonged (emphat.) from H410]
KJV: God, god.
Root(s): H410

Note definition #1 and 2. do you see any plurality there? and also note: definition #3... at the end, "one of man's inventions". that's the problem man's invention. NOW LET'S SEPARATE MAN INVENTION FROM GOD WORD OF TRUTH.
going back to H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') it states in the very first definition,1. (literally) supreme ones.
why the plurality on "ONES?" let's see it.

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" ... ONE "LORD?", yes, because he is Also "ONE" ... Lord.
ONE here is, H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

why is definition #2 is the choice of 101G? because it addresses HOW the "LORD" our God is One LORD. but he is also ONE "Lord". this is clearly understood in Psalms 110:1 which we all know just as well as Deuteronomy 6:4. "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

sounds, and look like two persons? ... LORD, OUR GOD, and Lord, David, MY "Lord". well Looks and Sound are deceiving. we all know who the "LORD" is right, but what about the "Lord", or our Lord, Jesus. well here's the revelation that answers all the above questions. LISTEN, and LEARN this, Psalms 110:5 "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath." the same "Lord" in verse 1, who is at the LORD'S Right is
H136 אֲדֹנָי 'Adonay (ad-o-noy') n-m.
1. (meaning) Lord (used as a proper name of God only).
2. (person) Adonai, The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel” - see Exodus 5:1 and 120 other occurrences).
[am emphatic form of H113]
KJV: (my) Lord.
Root(s): H113

look at definition #2 carefully, "The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel”". STOP, HOLD IT. IS NOT THE "LORD", ALL CAPS THE GOD OF ISRAEL, PER DEUTERONOMY 6:4? SO HOW CAN THE Lord IN VERSES 1 AND HERE IN VERSE 5 IS THE GOD OF ISRAEL, WHEN CLEARLY DEUTERONOMY 6:4 SAY THE "LORD" IS THE GOD OF ISRAEL. SO, IS THERE TWO GOD(S) OF ISRAEL? NO, AND 101G SAY NO AGAIN. ONLY ONE "PERSON" IS THE "ONE GOD OF ISRAEL.

SO WHAT GIVES? how is the ONE God of Israel is only one PERSON who is both "LORD"/Father, and "Lord"/Son? answer, Ordinal Designations in "TIME", "ORDER", "PLACE", or "RANK. Let's go back the definition of ONE
ONE here is, H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

God is a plurality in an ECHAD of "TIME", "PLACE", "ORDER", and "RANK". just as Genesis 1:1 states.

and this designation is in the Ordinal "ORDER" of FIRST and LAST. let's see it in Scriptures. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." here, the LORD, the FIRST is with the LAST, just as in John 1:1 the Word is "WITH" God. sound again like two persons... well no, the REVELATION, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.". ALSO indicate the SAME one person, because "ALSO" means, "in addition; too:" there is the plurality of God as "ONE". and why some ... as you say renders LORD in Deuteronomy 6:4 as plural.

now the next step is to find out how God is a Plurality of ONE.

PICJAG, 101G.

Matthias · Sep 9, 2023

101G said:
thanks for the reply, a opening, maybe? 101G can clear up some of the mystery. Using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
God is Plural in an ECHAD OF "ONE", in "TIME", "PLACE", "ORDER" or "RANK". for H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') is the Plural of, of, of, H433. let's see it.

H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

NOTE: [plural of H433]
so, who is H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) n-m.
אֱלֹהַּ 'eloahh (el-o'-ah) [shortened (rarely)]
1. one with supreme strength and ability.
2. the Supreme Being, God the Creator, Yahweh by name.
3. a supreme entity, a god-like creature (that is, one of God's supreme creations, or one of man's inventions).
[probably prolonged (emphat.) from H410]
KJV: God, god.
Root(s): H410

Note definition #1 and 2. do you see any plurality there? and also note: definition #3... at the end, "one of man's inventions". that's the problem man's invention. NOW LET'S SEPARATE MAN INVENTION FROM GOD WORD OF TRUTH.
going back to H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') it states in the very first definition,1. (literally) supreme ones.
why the plurality on "ONES?" let's see it.

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" ... ONE "LORD?", yes, because he is Also "ONE" ... Lord.
ONE here is, H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

why is definition #2 is the choice of 101G? because it addresses HOW the "LORD" our God is One LORD. but he is also ONE "Lord". this is clearly understood in Psalms 110:1 which we all know just as well as Deuteronomy 6:4. "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

sounds, and look like two persons? ... LORD, OUR GOD, and Lord, David, MY "Lord". well Looks and Sound are deceiving. we all know who the "LORD" is right, but what about the "Lord", or our Lord, Jesus. well here's the revelation that answers all the above questions. LISTEN, and LEARN this, Psalms 110:5 "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath." the same "Lord" in verse 1, who is at the LORD'S Right is
H136 אֲדֹנָי 'Adonay (ad-o-noy') n-m.
1. (meaning) Lord (used as a proper name of God only).
2. (person) Adonai, The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel” - see Exodus 5:1 and 120 other occurrences).
[am emphatic form of H113]
KJV: (my) Lord.
Root(s): H113

look at definition #2 carefully, "The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel”". STOP, HOLD IT. IS NOT THE "LORD", ALL CAPS THE GOD OF ISRAEL, PER DEUTERONOMY 6:4? SO HOW CAN THE Lord IN VERSES 1 AND HERE IN VERSE 5 IS THE GOD OF ISRAEL, WHEN CLEARLY DEUTERONOMY 6:4 SAY THE "LORD" IS THE GOD OF ISRAEL. SO, IS THERE TWO GOD(S) OF ISRAEL? NO, AND 101G SAY NO AGAIN. ONLY ONE "PERSON" IS THE "ONE GOD OF ISRAEL.

SO WHAT GIVES? how is the ONE God of Israel is only one PERSON who is both "LORD"/Father, and "Lord"/Son? answer, Ordinal Designations in "TIME", "ORDER", "PLACE", or "RANK. Let's go back the definition of ONE
ONE here is, H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

God is a plurality in an ECHAD of "TIME", "PLACE", "ORDER", and "RANK". just as Genesis 1:1 states.

and this designation is in the Ordinal "ORDER" of FIRST and LAST. let's see it in Scriptures. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." here, the LORD, the FIRST is with the LAST, just as in John 1:1 the Word is "WITH" God. sound again like two persons... well no, the REVELATION, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.". ALSO indicate the SAME one person, because "ALSO" means, "in addition; too:" there is the plurality of God as "ONE". and why some ... as you say renders LORD in Deuteronomy 6:4 as plural.

now the next step is to find out how God is a Plurality of ONE.

PICJAG, 101G.

One means one, not more than one.

Echad can modify a collective noun (in Hebrew just as in any other language) but the plurality is always found in the collective noun, never in echad.

Echad elohim -> one God, not more than one God.

There is no plurality in echad. Is it your understanding that elohim is a collective noun?

101G · Sep 10, 2023

Matthias said:
One means one, not more than one.

One can mean Cardinally in numbers or Ordinally in number. but let's see what God say. Isaiah Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
here "ALSO" means, "in addition; too:" more than ONE, You can Look this up. and addition, means 1. the action or process of adding something to something else. 2. a person or thing added or joined, typically in order to improve something.

now either ONE/ECHAD means either Cardinally in numbers or Ordinally in number take your pick,

you want to try again?

101G.

Matthias · Sep 10, 2023

101G said:
One can mean Cardinally in numbers or Ordinally in number. but let's see what God say. Isaiah Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
here "ALSO" means, "in addition; too:" more than ONE, You can Look this up. and addition, means 1. the action or process of adding something to something else. 2. a person or thing added or joined, typically in order to improve something.

now either ONE/ECHAD means either Cardinally in numbers or Ordinally in number take your pick,

you want to try again?

101G.

Do you believe that the Messiah himself has a God?

101G · Sep 10, 2023

Matthias said:
Do you believe that the Messiah himself has a God?

NOT HIMSELF, (as Father), as Ordinal First. but, (but as Son), in human flesh on earth, in a G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') state as Ordinal Last, YES. which is of an EQUAL "SHAFRE NATURE". supportive scripture, Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." Hebrews 1:9 "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

in the equal share of "PLACE", and "ORDER" and in "RANK"..... in "TIME", yes. 101G had to say it this way to cover all bases. as for him Shared in flesh.

101G.

Matthias · Sep 10, 2023

101G said:
NOT HIMSELF, (as Father), as Ordinal First. but, (but as Son), in human flesh on earth, in a G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') state as Ordinal Last, YES. which is of an EQUAL "SHAFRE NATURE". supportive scripture, Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." Hebrews 1:9 "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

in the equal share of "PLACE", and "ORDER" and in "RANK"..... in "TIME", yes. 101G had to say it this way to cover all bases. as for him Shared in flesh.

101G.

Jesus himself states that he has a God, the Father. I don’t believe anyone besides the Father is his God. Do you?

If it’s true that his God is only one person, then it’s true that Jesus is a unitarian.

Listen to what is being said about unitarians / unitarianism. For better and for worse, what is being said about unitarianism / unitarians is being said about Jesus, himself a unitarian.

Matthias · Sep 10, 2023

My God is a single self. The Father.

How many selves is the God of the trinitarian?

101G · Sep 11, 2023

Matthias said:
Jesus himself states that he has a God, the Father. I don’t believe anyone besides the Father is his God. Do you?

If it’s true that his God is only one person, then it’s true that Jesus is a unitarian.

Listen to what is being said about unitarians / unitarianism. For better and for worse, what is being said about unitarianism / unitarians is being said about Jesus, himself a unitarian.

GINOLJC, to all.
My God shows possession. my God, or MY Father is HIM the Spirit. as the Ordinal Last on Earth in flesh. Listen when he said "MY Father", he is saying MY "Spirit". ...... which is in Heaven. and in Heaven when the Ordinal First/the Father say MY Son, he is saying MY Body on Earth. MY shows possession.

now here's the test to see it. Revelation 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

NOW, who Name did he write? " my new name."

how did 101G get this understanding.... Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

so, who is God's ... "OWN"/Possession ARM? he, himself. it's just that simple.... just read the bible. that's all.

101G.

Matthias · Sep 11, 2023

101G said:
GINOLJC, to all.
My God shows possession. my God, or MY Father is HIM the Spirit. as the Ordinal Last on Earth in flesh. Listen when he said "MY Father", he is saying MY "Spirit". ...... which is in Heaven. and in Heaven when the Ordinal First/the Father say MY Son, he is saying MY Body on Earth. MY shows possession.

now here's the test to see it. Revelation 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

NOW, who Name did he write? " my new name."

how did 101G get this understanding.... Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

so, who is God's ... "OWN"/Possession ARM? he, himself. it's just that simple.... just read the bible. that's all.

101G.

Are you a Modalist?

Easily dispelling unitarianism

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