Documents From the Aramaic Church in Jerusalem of the First Century

EclipseEventSigns

Well-known member
<<< WARNING: This thread will challenge your preconceived and accepted beliefs of the history of the early Church. If you are not prepared to investigate the references given before commenting, then please stop and move on to a different thread. >>>


An ancient manuscript exists written in Greek which contains a complete list of the titles of accepted books of the Old Testament. Each title also includes a transliteration of how it was pronounced at that time in the language used in the Holy Land. The base Hebrew form of the titles is very evident. But what is shocking and unexpected is that the language transliterated is actually very clearly Aramaic. Hebrew and Aramaic are very closely related.

But that's not all. There is another manuscript with the same information. A list in Greek of all the Old Testament books with each having a transliteration of the Aramaic form of the title. Each list comes from a different source and has a different history of where it came from. But they are both very clearly based on the same original list.

One list is found in EPIPHANIUS' TREATISE ON WEIGHTS AND MEASURES written circa 315-403 AD.
(https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/saoc11.pdf
Edited by JAMES ELMER DEAN, 1935)

The other list is found in a manuscript discovered in Jerusalem. It is in the manuscript now numbered 54 in the Greek Patriarchate Library in Jerusalem, fol. 76.
The manuscript is dated 6564 of the Greeks = A.D. 1056. It was published by Bryennios in the 1800's.
(A HEBREW-ARAMAIC LIST OF BOOKS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT IN GREEK TRANSCRIPTION
Journal of Theological Studies, N.S., VoL I, PL 2, October 1950)

These are also both discussed in "The Aramaic Period of the Nascent Christian Church" by C. C. Torrey.

oldTestamentList_Manuscript.png

The orange bar shows where the list occurs in this manuscript page. It's found in "The Apostolic Fathers. Part 1. Clement of Rome. J. B. Lightfoot. 1890. p 474

There was scholarly investigation in the 1950's. But I have not come across anything more recent. And I certainly have not heard this discussed outside academic circles before. Some important forgotten evidence of the history of the early church.

The scholar discussion focused on why would Greek churches need to be sent a bulletin containing a list of how to pronounce the Old Testament book titles in Aramaic? At what point was the early church in Jerusalem sending out documents to Greek Christians needing to know this important information? In their expert opinions, the scholars date the original list to the second half of the first century. And it can not have been much later than 70 AD since the entire relationship between Christians and Jews changed after that point.

How do we know both lists present the titles in Aramaic? Here is the list from Epiphanius translated into English - including the transliterated portion.

bereshlth, which is called the Genesis of the world,
elesimoth, which is called the Exodus of the Israelites.
awajeqrd, which is transferred (into Greek as) Leviticus,
awaddajber, which is transferred (into Greek as) Numbers,
elle devarejm, which is Deuteronomy.
dishu , which is Joshua.
dijjov, which is Job.
dishovlejm, which is Judges,
deruth, which is Ruth.
sfertelejm, which is the Psalms.
dvarjamin, which is I Paraleipomena.
dvarjamin, which is II Paraleipomena.
deshamuel,which is I Kingdoms.
dadudh shameul, which is II Kingdoms.
demalakhejm, which is III Kingdoms.
demalakhejm, which is IV Kingdoms,
demealoth,which is Proverbs.
deqoheleth, which is Ecclesiastes.
shirath shirin, which is the Song of Songs.
dathresar,which is the Twelve Prophets.
deshaja, which is that of the prophet Isaiah,
deremja, which is that of the prophet Jeremiah,
dehezqiel, which is that of the prophet Ezekiel.
dedanjel, which is that of the prophet Daniel,
dezra, which is I Ezra.
dezra, which is II Ezra,
dester, which is Esther

Notice all the "d" prefixes. This is a specifically Aramaic relative pronoun. This does not occur in Hebrew. It means "which is".

Two manuscripts which include the same information from unrelated sources. This is evidence of quite a different history of the early church than is commonly accepted. A history that is still not appreciated. And even this modern scholarship seems to have been forgotten over the past decades.
 
A list of OT books in Aramaic in 1000 AD.

It's not exactly shocking, nor rewriting all church history.

If you want a conspiracy, you will find one no matter what.
 
A list of OT books in Aramaic in 1000 AD.

It's not exactly shocking, nor rewriting all church history.

If you want a conspiracy, you will find one no matter what.
<<< WARNING: This thread will challenge your preconceived and accepted beliefs of the history of the early Church. If you are not prepared to investigate the references given before commenting, then please stop and move on to a different thread. >>>
 
<<< WARNING: This thread will challenge your preconceived and accepted beliefs of the history of the early Church. If you are not prepared to investigate the references given before commenting, then please stop and move on to a different thread. >>>

I was very prepared, lol, no worries.
 
This is the church history forum so its up to you what pasts of history you want to believe or not. :)

Wow, you just opened a whole wide world of pure imagination for me.

Reminds me of the old Willy Wonka song:

Come with me and you'll be In a world of pure imagination
Take a look and you'll see Into your imagination
We'll begin with a spin Traveling in the world of my creation
What we'll see will defy Explanation
If you want to view paradise Simply look around and view it
Anything you want to, do it
Want to change the world? There's nothing to it
There is no life I know To compare with pure imagination
Living there, you'll be free If you truly wish to be
 
Wow, you just opened a whole wide world of pure imagination for me.

Reminds me of the old Willy Wonka song:

Come with me and you'll be In a world of pure imagination
Take a look and you'll see Into your imagination
We'll begin with a spin Traveling in the world of my creation
What we'll see will defy Explanation
If you want to view paradise Simply look around and view it
Anything you want to, do it
Want to change the world? There's nothing to it
There is no life I know To compare with pure imagination
Living there, you'll be free If you truly wish to be
Kind of like believing in the false teachings in history from augustine. :)

He has the greatest of all gnostic imaginations.

Willy Wonka on steroids
:)
 
Kind of like believing in the false teachings in history from augustine. :)

He has the greatest of all gnostic imaginations.

Willy Wonka on steroids
:)

Hey, I don't agree with Augustine on a ton of things.

I don't agree with any ECF on everything—haven't you yourself said as much?

I still don't lie about original sin being invented with Augustine, that's dishonest and deceptive.


But I've looked into an Aramaic original—if there is ever real evidence for it, I'm open.

There are some strong evidences against an Aramaic original NT, in my opinion.
 
Hey, I don't agree with Augustine on a ton of things.

I don't agree with any ECF on everything—haven't you yourself said as much?

I still don't lie about original sin being invented with Augustine, that's dishonest and deceptive.


But I've looked into an Aramaic original—if there is ever real evidence for it, I'm open.

There are some strong evidences against an Aramaic original NT, in my opinion.
And maybe you'll actually look AND read the many evidences that I've included in ALL my threads that you sprinkle your unsubstantiated opinions in.
 
Since civic likes to replicate the Got Questions website with the wonderful tag of "got?" let's replicate that page here for reference:

The term Aramaic Primacy is used, informally, to refer to the claim that the New Testament was originally written not in Koine Greek but in a dialect of Aramaic. This theory is more commonly referred to as “Peshitta Primacy,” referring to the ancient Aramaic manuscripts of the Bible, a collection known as the Peshitta. The Aramaic Primacy Theory is drastically different from the consensus of historians and New Testament scholars, who hold that the original works of the New Testament were in fact written in Greek. A large number of researchers suggest that the Gospels of Mark and Matthew may have drawn from earlier Aramaic sources, but the claims of Aramaic Primacy go far beyond this.

Certain denominations hold to Aramaic Primacy as an article of faith, such as the Assyrian Church of the East. George Lamsa, a proponent of the Nestorian heresy, was instrumental in advancing the view that the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic. As with other views running contrary to general scholarship, Aramaic/Peshitta Primacy is primarily supported by the work of a single author, in this case, Lamsa. Both contemporaries of Lamsa and later scholars have concluded he frequently confused then-modern Syriac with ancient Aramaic, two languages that are extremely similar. More problematic is Lamsa’s translation of the Bible from the Aramaic, published in full in 1957. His translation work is inaccurate and filled with subtle changes to the text that undermine the doctrines of the Trinity and the deity of Christ, among others.

Textual scholars have examined the Peshitta and found clear evidence of influence from later translations. The dialect used in the Peshitta is from a later time period than that of Jesus and His disciples. The Peshitta utilizes phrases that obscure wordplay and metaphor; this is expected of a translation but not an original autograph. The massive number of biblical manuscripts available makes it possible to recognize variations, translation choices, and so forth, over time and geography. In other words, all available evidence points to the Peshitta’s being a later translation, not an original manuscript. Peshitta Primacy, or Aramaic Primacy, is not supported by evidence or scholarship. Despite the traditional view of Syriac churches, certain segments of Messianic Judaism, and the Hebrew Roots Movement, the New Testament was not originally written in Aramaic.
 
Since civic likes to replicate the Got Questions website with the wonderful tag of "got?" let's replicate that page here for reference:

The term Aramaic Primacy is used, informally, to refer to the claim that the New Testament was originally written not in Koine Greek but in a dialect of Aramaic. This theory is more commonly referred to as “Peshitta Primacy,” referring to the ancient Aramaic manuscripts of the Bible, a collection known as the Peshitta. The Aramaic Primacy Theory is drastically different from the consensus of historians and New Testament scholars, who hold that the original works of the New Testament were in fact written in Greek. A large number of researchers suggest that the Gospels of Mark and Matthew may have drawn from earlier Aramaic sources, but the claims of Aramaic Primacy go far beyond this.

Certain denominations hold to Aramaic Primacy as an article of faith, such as the Assyrian Church of the East. George Lamsa, a proponent of the Nestorian heresy, was instrumental in advancing the view that the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic. As with other views running contrary to general scholarship, Aramaic/Peshitta Primacy is primarily supported by the work of a single author, in this case, Lamsa. Both contemporaries of Lamsa and later scholars have concluded he frequently confused then-modern Syriac with ancient Aramaic, two languages that are extremely similar. More problematic is Lamsa’s translation of the Bible from the Aramaic, published in full in 1957. His translation work is inaccurate and filled with subtle changes to the text that undermine the doctrines of the Trinity and the deity of Christ, among others.

Textual scholars have examined the Peshitta and found clear evidence of influence from later translations. The dialect used in the Peshitta is from a later time period than that of Jesus and His disciples. The Peshitta utilizes phrases that obscure wordplay and metaphor; this is expected of a translation but not an original autograph. The massive number of biblical manuscripts available makes it possible to recognize variations, translation choices, and so forth, over time and geography. In other words, all available evidence points to the Peshitta’s being a later translation, not an original manuscript. Peshitta Primacy, or Aramaic Primacy, is not supported by evidence or scholarship. Despite the traditional view of Syriac churches, certain segments of Messianic Judaism, and the Hebrew Roots Movement, the New Testament was not originally written in Aramaic.
They are not infallible:)
 
Since civic likes to replicate the Got Questions website with the wonderful tag of "got?" let's replicate that page here for reference:

The term Aramaic Primacy is used, informally, to refer to the claim that the New Testament was originally written not in Koine Greek but in a dialect of Aramaic. This theory is more commonly referred to as “Peshitta Primacy,” referring to the ancient Aramaic manuscripts of the Bible, a collection known as the Peshitta. The Aramaic Primacy Theory is drastically different from the consensus of historians and New Testament scholars, who hold that the original works of the New Testament were in fact written in Greek. A large number of researchers suggest that the Gospels of Mark and Matthew may have drawn from earlier Aramaic sources, but the claims of Aramaic Primacy go far beyond this.

Certain denominations hold to Aramaic Primacy as an article of faith, such as the Assyrian Church of the East. George Lamsa, a proponent of the Nestorian heresy, was instrumental in advancing the view that the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic. As with other views running contrary to general scholarship, Aramaic/Peshitta Primacy is primarily supported by the work of a single author, in this case, Lamsa. Both contemporaries of Lamsa and later scholars have concluded he frequently confused then-modern Syriac with ancient Aramaic, two languages that are extremely similar. More problematic is Lamsa’s translation of the Bible from the Aramaic, published in full in 1957. His translation work is inaccurate and filled with subtle changes to the text that undermine the doctrines of the Trinity and the deity of Christ, among others.

Textual scholars have examined the Peshitta and found clear evidence of influence from later translations. The dialect used in the Peshitta is from a later time period than that of Jesus and His disciples. The Peshitta utilizes phrases that obscure wordplay and metaphor; this is expected of a translation but not an original autograph. The massive number of biblical manuscripts available makes it possible to recognize variations, translation choices, and so forth, over time and geography. In other words, all available evidence points to the Peshitta’s being a later translation, not an original manuscript. Peshitta Primacy, or Aramaic Primacy, is not supported by evidence or scholarship. Despite the traditional view of Syriac churches, certain segments of Messianic Judaism, and the Hebrew Roots Movement, the New Testament was not originally written in Aramaic.
If you are going to get information third hand like that, you'll never get anywhere close to the truth. Research, and that means ACTUAL RESEARCH is to examine the actual evidence. And it is clear that the site you quote has not ever done anything close to that. So many errors and false statements in there. But like anything, you've got to put in the time to find the truth. Your continuous pot shots are quite comical and immature. These truths are not meant for people like you.

And to state the obvious, the point of THIS thread is to discuss the evidence presented in the first post. Not to do drive by internet copy/paste spam trying to discredit something you haven't even researched.
 
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There is another thing that begs the question: why is this type of person even frequenting these threads? This forum is named the "Berean Apologetics Ministry". Who were the Bereans?
[Act 17:11 LSB] 11 Now these [Bereans] were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily [to see] whether these things were so.

Opinions mean nothing without a curious mind wanting to find the truth.
 
Make sure you are truthful and include ALL facts. There is an manuscript of the 4 Gospels written in Aramaic which has a scribal note saying the content is dated to 78 AD. The codex was located in the Vatican Library since the early 1700's. No one has seen it since, though.

There's a reason people don't take this manuscript seriously, and it's not because they aren't Bereans.

Without actual manuscripts, it's just hearsay and urban legends.
 
There's a reason people don't take this manuscript seriously, and it's not because they aren't Bereans.

Without actual manuscripts, it's just hearsay and urban legends.
The Roman Catholic Vatican Library is not an urban legend. It shows your ignorance if you don't appreciate just how big a deal it is for anything that is listed in the official documents. On pain of imprisonment and excommunication if that information was incorrect.
 
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