The Gospels Codex from 78 AD - where is it?

[praise_yeshua]

I have no obligation to do anything. You are the one who ignored the words within Josephus that absolutely destroyed the statements that you claimed. You dismissed them entirely. Until YOU address this presented evidence and explain how Josephus actually supports your view, nothing else you ask or present matters. Just because you don't want to deal with something that goes against your views, doesn't mean that you will not be held to it.

No I didn't. I responded to them and you ignored the quotes I provided from Josephus.

You still insist that Josephus wrote everything he wrote originally in Aramaic. Which is a utterly preposterous.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

No I didn't. I responded to them and you ignored the quotes I provided from Josephus.

You still insist that Josephus wrote everything he wrote originally in Aramaic. Which is a utterly preposterous.

I SHOWED YOU EXACT QUOTES. Seriously. It's impossible to have any kind of discussion when you can't even admit the very words quoted.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Simple. There are competing manuscripts from the time period that detail an alternate narrative. Moses presents the Truth while the others are most likely from uncertain oral traditions.

Also, from experience.... it is human nature to selectively share the information that is only important to you. You know.... SIN.

SIN alone explains much of the mess we have with manuscripts. If man had really cared for God, we would have a perfect extant witness today. We don't.

I'm not trying to be difficult here but you really shouldn't start with commentary. It is obvious that you're not looking for real evidence. You're just following your own desires. Rather poorly at that.

Again. Not interested in your ad hominems. Proof. Sources. Or you have nothing.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Again. Not interested in your ad hominems. Proof. Sources. Or you have nothing.

So you deny the existence of variant accounts to the narrative found in Genesis? Why do you deny this proof?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I SHOWED YOU EXACT QUOTES. Seriously. It's impossible to have any kind of discussion when you can't even admit the very words quoted.

I read you quotes and never denied the words. They do not establish what you claim they establish. That is the issue and responded to what you claimed. Read it again.

Josephus recorded the vast population of Jews in Egypt. Josephus recorded the creation of the LXX and how the Jewish people rejoiced in the LXX.

You, yourself, provided quotes that show that Josephus learned Greek and wrote in Greek. You're just ignoring this. Josephus was no different than most any other Jew. They LEARNED GREEK!

I don't know why you insist on denying this.

 

[synergy]

You were proven wrong. What an insecure lot you are. You can't even admit your ignorance. Where are the people who are honest these days?

The Ad Hominems have started like clockwork. Time to move on.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

The Ad Hominems have started like clockwork. Time to move on.

If you are going to lie about not being corrected and get called out on it, that is not ad hominem. It's actually a valid observation. So Yes. Please do move on. This thread is for people who want to discuss with honesty and provide sources and acknowledge when they are mistaken.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I read you quotes and never denied the words. They do not establish what you claim they establish. That is the issue and responded to what you claimed. Read it again.
...snip...

I don't know why you insist on denying this.

Here it is again since you don't want to even go back to the original post.

Jewish Wars (Book 1, Preface, Paragraph 1): "I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our country, and sent to the Upper Barbarians. Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work]."

Jewish Wars Book 1 Preface, Paragraph 2 - "I thought it therefore an absurd thing to see the truth falsified in affairs of such great consequence, and to take no notice of it; but to suffer those Greeks and Romans that were not in the wars to be ignorant of these things, and to read either flatteries or fictions, while the Parthians, and the Babylonians, and the remotest Arabians, and those of our nation beyond Euphrates, with the Adiabeni, by my means, knew accurately both whence the war begun, what miseries it brought upon us, and after what manner it ended."

All of these nations OUTSIDE of Judea were able to read Josephus' first version (ie. not in Greek). Their language was the same as what was in Judea during this time. The Greeks and Romans were ignorant of his works because they couldn't read them and so he had to translate them.

"I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods;b ecause they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains." - Antiquities of Jews XX, XI

Josephus says he went through a lot of effort to learn Greek. It was not a common thing. Some people do try but many do not succeed in it. He had a lot of difficulty in speaking it properly. He would have stuck out to any native Greek speaker.

Antiquities of Jews Book 1, Preface, Paragraph 2 - "Now I have undertaken the present work, as thinking it will appear to all the Greeks worthy of their study; for it will contain all our antiquities, and the constitution of our government, as interpreted out of the Hebrew Scriptures. And indeed I did formerly intend, when I wrote of the war, to explain who the Jews originally were, - what fortunes they had been subject to, - and by what legislature they had been instructed in piety, and the exercise of other virtues, - what wars also they had made in remote ages, till they were unwillingly engaged in this last with the Romans: but because this work would take up a great compass, I separated it into a set treatise by itself, with a beginning of its own, and its own conclusion; but in process of time, as usually happens to such as undertake great things, I grew weary and went on slowly, it being a large subject, and a difficult thing to translate our history into a foreign, and to us unaccustomed language."

Greek was a foreign language to the Jews. They were unaccustomed to it. It was NOT commonly spoken. The vast majority would NOT have used the Septuagint as their Scripture reading.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

So you deny the existence of variant accounts to the narrative found in Genesis? Why do you deny this proof?

I did no such thing. Stop misrepresenting my words. Again, you show yourself to be dishonest in discussions. I said that YOU should provide the proof of sources to back up your statements (which remain unsubstantiated)

 

[praise_yeshua]

Here it is again since you don't want to even go back to the original post.

Jewish Wars (Book 1, Preface, Paragraph 1): "I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our country, and sent to the Upper Barbarians. Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work]."

Jewish Wars Book 1 Preface, Paragraph 2 - "I thought it therefore an absurd thing to see the truth falsified in affairs of such great consequence, and to take no notice of it; but to suffer those Greeks and Romans that were not in the wars to be ignorant of these things, and to read either flatteries or fictions, while the Parthians, and the Babylonians, and the remotest Arabians, and those of our nation beyond Euphrates, with the Adiabeni, by my means, knew accurately both whence the war begun, what miseries it brought upon us, and after what manner it ended."

All of these nations OUTSIDE of Judea were able to read Josephus' first version (ie. not in Greek). Their language was the same as what was in Judea during this time. The Greeks and Romans were ignorant of his works because they couldn't read them and so he had to translate them.

"I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods;b ecause they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains." - Antiquities of Jews XX, XI

Josephus says he went through a lot of effort to learn Greek. It was not a common thing. Some people do try but many do not succeed in it. He had a lot of difficulty in speaking it properly. He would have stuck out to any native Greek speaker.

Antiquities of Jews Book 1, Preface, Paragraph 2 - "Now I have undertaken the present work, as thinking it will appear to all the Greeks worthy of their study; for it will contain all our antiquities, and the constitution of our government, as interpreted out of the Hebrew Scriptures. And indeed I did formerly intend, when I wrote of the war, to explain who the Jews originally were, - what fortunes they had been subject to, - and by what legislature they had been instructed in piety, and the exercise of other virtues, - what wars also they had made in remote ages, till they were unwillingly engaged in this last with the Romans: but because this work would take up a great compass, I separated it into a set treatise by itself, with a beginning of its own, and its own conclusion; but in process of time, as usually happens to such as undertake great things, I grew weary and went on slowly, it being a large subject, and a difficult thing to translate our history into a foreign, and to us unaccustomed language."

Greek was a foreign language to the Jews. They were unaccustomed to it. It was NOT commonly spoken. The vast majority would NOT have used the Septuagint as their Scripture reading.

What book did he write FIRST? It was series call "Jewish Wars". Written in Aramaic and you quoted.


What was his second work and what language did He right that book in? It was the "Antiquities of the Jews" and ORIGINALLY WRITTEN BY JOSEPHUS IN GREEK!

Like I said.... He, like most every other Jew, learned Greek to interact with His audience. Which were JEWS.....

So you're insistence that Jews did not understand Greek is utterly preposterous.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I did no such thing. Stop misrepresenting my words. Again, you show yourself to be dishonest in discussions. I said that YOU should provide the proof of sources to back up your statements (which remain unsubstantiated)

This is called "internal evidence".... You obviously love men's commentaries. Evidence from the extant writings themselves. No. I'm not going to quote some "nut" you prefer.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

What book did he write FIRST? It was series call "Jewish Wars". Written in Aramaic and you quoted.


What was his second work and what language did He right that book in? It was the "Antiquities of the Jews" and ORIGINALLY WRITTEN BY JOSEPHUS IN GREEK!

Like I said.... He, like most every other Jew, learned Greek to interact with His audience. Which were JEWS.....

So you're insistence that Jews did not understand Greek is utterly preposterous.

There are the words of Josephus himself. It can't be more clear and evident. Putting you on ignore as well. I should have stopped engaging with you yesterday but I thought you might have an open mind based on one of your comments. Are there no honest people on this forum?

 

[praise_yeshua]

There are the words of Josephus himself. It can't be more clear and evident. Putting you on ignore as well. I should have stopped engaging with you yesterday but I thought you might have an open mind based on one of your comments. Are there no honest people on this forum?

You need to read more closely. There were Jews all over the world. There was a huge population of Jews in Egypt.

Why did Jospehus wrote his second work first in Greek if what you say is true? Yes. There were Jews that did not like Greek. However, they learned Greek just like Jospehus did. He did so because it was necessary.

So tell me why he wrote the remainder of his works, first in Greek if what you say is true? If what you say is true, he wouldn't have.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There are the words of Josephus himself. It can't be more clear and evident. Putting you on ignore as well. I should have stopped engaging with you yesterday but I thought you might have an open mind based on one of your comments. Are there no honest people on this forum?

Your struggle is with the Truth. There are plenty of honest people on this forum. You are basically playing the Martyr. You're not a Martyr.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

This thread is about THIS TOPIC. When you have researched this and verified the sources for yourself - the official publications from the Vatican Library in Latin are easily accessible to read for yourself.

In the early 1700's a librarian from the Vatican discovered an ancient codex containing the 4 Gospels of the New Testament written in Aramaic. On its last page the scribe made a note that it had been completed on what was December 18th, 78 AD. This information was forgotten until around 1889 when a biblical scholar republished this information. However, still to this day no one knows if this ancient codex is still in the Vatican Library or not. Could this truly be the oldest manuscript from the New Testament?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Your struggle is with the Truth. There are plenty of honest people on this forum. You are basically playing the Martyr. You're not a Martyr.

You're making rudimentary mistakes at a fundamental level. There are simple explanations for Josephus's comments that your haven't even considered. This is due to bias toward your conclusion.

Just explain why he wrote the remainder of his works first in Greek. You're wrong about his works all being written first in Aramaic. It shows you don't really know his writings. I knew if before I ever went to pull his quotes. I've extensively debated this subject for decades. I've left more than one person endlessly repeating themselves while ignoring the evidence. I asked a simple question. Why did Josephus wrote first in Greek after learning Greek?

 

[synergy]

What book did he write FIRST? It was series call "Jewish Wars". Written in Aramaic and you quoted.


What was his second work and what language did He right that book in? It was the "Antiquities of the Jews" and ORIGINALLY WRITTEN BY JOSEPHUS IN GREEK!

Like I said.... He, like most every other Jew, learned Greek to interact with His audience. Which were JEWS.....

So you're insistence that Jews did not understand Greek is utterly preposterous.

Seems that EES is thinking that people around the world are just like us Americans who only know one language. I have Egyptian friends who know 5 languages, fluently!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Seems that EES is thinking that people around the world are just like us Americans who only know one language. I have Egyptian friends who know 5 languages, fluently!

Yep.....

I just realized I wrote "right" instead of "write"......

See. I can make mistake.

 

[Predestined]

I’m going to temporarily lock this thread for reasons of personal insulting posters instead of addressing the arguments of the poster.