Doctrine of eternal punishment

I would question the doctrine started by the "other voice" in the garden with Eve, in my view. Namely "Thou shall surely not die". It is said that satan in an immortal being, and the "Lake of Fire" is reserved for him who cannot "die". But men must receive immortality, as they are not born with it.
Of course what you ignored is that Adam and Eve both did DIE SPIRITUALLY when they tossed God under the Bus, and sided with satan in the garden. Spiritual Death (loss of the Holy Spirit), and Physical Death are two different issues. There's nothing Biblically that suggests that the spirit of man is not eternal. That's only YOUR paradigm speaking.
 
Of course what you ignored is that Adam and Eve both did DIE SPIRITUALLY when they tossed God under the Bus, and sided with satan in the garden. Spiritual Death (loss of the Holy Spirit), and Physical Death are two different issues. There's nothing Biblically that suggests that the spirit of man is not eternal. That's only YOUR paradigm speaking.

I know that "many" who "come in Christ's Name", teach that God gives the gift of immortality to every human. While this is a seductive, and popular religious philosophy promoted by the religions of this world God placed me in, God Himself. nor those HE Inspires, teach this philosophy.

Job 4: 17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Rom. 6: 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom. 8: 10 And "if" Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Cor. 15: 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, "then shall be brought to pass" the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

So what happens to mortal men who "Work Iniquity", or "them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness"?

The Jesus "of the Bible" teaches;

Matt. 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So it isn't my "paradigm speaking" that promotes the seductive and popular religious philosophy promoted by the "other religious voices" in the garden God placed me in, namely that all humans are gifted by God, HIS gift of Immortality. Clearly Paul doesn't promote this Philosophy. God, and the Prophets HE sent, didn't promote this Philosophy. The Jesus "of the Bible" doesn't promote this philosophy, but "MANY" who come in Christ's Name does.

It seems the Jesus of the Bible saw these "MANY" coming and warned HIS People to "Take Heed" of them. A warning I am very grateful for.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Notice it isn't Islam HE warns me of, or Buddhism or even Atheists. And of course, none of these are preaching to the world that God's Gives ALL humans immortality. No, HE singles out the "many" of ONE Specific religion. A People HE who "Calls Him Lord, Lord".

My hope is that others might hear Him and believe as well.
 
I find it fascinating, and have studied for 30 years now, the influence of "Religion" on men. I was born into a world in which the religious sects and businesses which existed, pretty much all promote the religious philosophy that all men are granted God's gift of immortality.
So for me, to adopt the popular religious philosophy that God grants all humans immortality
The Bible simply doesn't support the popular Catholic tradition of ECT.
rather than the religious doctrines and traditions of mem
But the religious traditions and Philosophies of men? Not so much, as we are instructed to "Beware of", and "Take Heed of" the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but promote the religious traditions and philosophies of men, not God.
So for me, to adopt the popular religious philosophy that God grants all humans immortality, some just spend it in one place, while others a different place, I would be forced to reject and "not believe" so much of the Bible.
Surely you can see how a man seeking God's Truth, would be cautious of this world's popular religious philosophy that God grants "Everyone" immortality, given what is actually written in Scriptures. Certainly Paul didn't believe in this popular religious philosophy.
So you can see, the popular religious philosophy that God Grants the gift of Immortality to EVERY Human, is a questionable religious philosophy, and one that doesn't seem to be supported by the Holy Scriptures.
Both satan and the disobedient are immortal in this religious philosophy you are promoting, Yes?
Now you, and "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, promote the Philosophy that "DEATH" means life everlasting, or immortality, or as it was stated in scriptures, "thou shall surely not die".
So in this discussion, you are using ony those words which can be used to preserve this popular religious philosophy you have adopted.
Well, first of all, you are trying to justify your adopted religious philosophy that God's Grants all human's immortality.
the religious philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting
My argument is against the popular religious philosophy which is a foundational pillar for "many" religions who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and that is that God Grants all Humans immortality.
It would be great if you would answer my questions
Precious friend, yes, it would be, but thanks for the discussion anyway. - ie:

In view of all of your above arguments "against religious philosophy" that you accuse me
[ who has been Out of all religions for more years than you have studied "the influence of
"Religion" on men." ] of adopting, I believe trying to answer questions would be unproductive,
discouraging, and non-edifying
( not why I am here * ) :cry:

Thus, it is now time to humbly obey God, and (1) forgive you (Ephesians 4:32 AV), and
(2) proceed according To His Pure Words Of Preserved Scripture *:

in Romans 16:17 AV. Amen.

Take care...
-------------
* Romans – Philemon {AV} = God's Grace/Peace Love Letters Directly To us Today,
For:

Consolation, Comfort, Edification, Enjoyment, Encouragement, And spiritual Building
Up Of All The BLOOD-Washed "members ( saints!" ) In The Body Of CHRIST!, HIS Church,
Seated In Heaven! { Start here, but remember:

"All Scripture Is Profitable For learning!" } Praise His Holy Name!!
Study to Be APPROVED Open Bible.png

Example
 
Precious friend, yes, it would be, but thanks for the discussion anyway. - ie:

In view of all of your above arguments "against religious philosophy" that you accuse me

But GA, you are promoting a specific religious philosophy. You even posted the opinions of your adopted religious philosopher in your mission to "Promote" this specific religious philosophy. And now that I have pointed out this undeniable Truth, based on your own posts, you are going to take your toys and go home?

Well it's your religion, you are free to do as you please. But I was sincerely hoping you might be willing "to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear".

[ who has been Out of all religions for more years than you have studied "the influence of
"Religion" on men." ] of adopting, I believe trying to answer questions would be unproductive,
discouraging, and non-edifying
( not why I am here * ) :cry:

As far as your claim that you have been "out of religions for more years than I have studied", that is quite a boastful statement, and a foolish one in my view. You make the mistake of not considering that I have read your posts, and the studies you have promoted for many months, as I am here looking for others who are seeking Biblical Truth, as opposed to those who are here promoting the religious philosophies of other men, which you clearly do.

I notice that you didn't quote the religious philosophy or religious opinion of Charles Taze Russell or Joseph Franklin Rutherford, therefore it is clear that you have not adopted and are not promoting the philosophies or doctrines and traditions of the religious sect, "Jehovah's Witnesses".

Nor are you promoting the doctrines and philosophies of the LDS, or SDA, as you are not promoting the teaching of any of their founders or well known preachers.

According to your works, you are here to promote a religious movement, "Mid-Acts/Hyper-Dispensationalism" , and therefore you promote the religious opinions and philosophies of men who are proponents of said religious movement. " Charles Baker, J.C. O'Hair, Richard Jordan, Kevin Sadler and of course the famous C.R. Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, whose philosophy you seem to trust "as profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness", whose religious opinions you post to justify your philosophy.

I know you surely must understand the difference between religions, and the philosophies they promote, because you have not chosen the Catholic religion to further and support, though Protestants adopt many of her religious traditions. You didn't choose the LDS religion, or their religious philosophies, although like you, they believe their religion is the true church of God. Nor did you adopt the religious philosophies and doctrines of JW.

You adopted instead, another religious movement, and are here to promote their religious philosophies, to the point of posting the opinions their famous religious philosophers.

Now I am not judging any of these religions, nor am I judging you. I am simply pointing out an undeniable Truth discerned, not be reading or listening to what others say about you or the religion you are promoting, but by reading and considering your own words.

And I am doing so in God's Love, in the same way the Jesus "of the Bible" loved me for the exclusive purpose of edification.




Thus, it is now time to humbly obey God, and (1) forgive you (Ephesians 4:32 AV), and

Forgive me for what? Pointing out undeniable biblical Truths?

(2) proceed according To His Pure Words Of Preserved Scripture *:

I you were "doing" this instruction, and not just hearing it, you would have answered my relevant questions.

in Romans 16:17 AV. Amen.

Take care...
-------------
* Romans – Philemon {AV} = God's Grace/Peace Love Letters Directly To us Today,
For:

Consolation, Comfort, Edification, Enjoyment, Encouragement, And spiritual Building
Up Of All The BLOOD-Washed "members ( saints!" ) In The Body Of CHRIST!, HIS Church,
Seated In Heaven! { Start here, but remember:

"All Scripture Is Profitable For learning!" } Praise His Holy Name!!

And yet, because I tell you the truth, I am judged unworthy by you, of even the most common of decencies, answering questions about Scriptures.
 
I don't believe in the eternal torment, in the literal sense.
I'm ready to share why respectfully if someone is interested
One of my best friends who I led to the Lord back in the 80’s who is a fellow trinitarian no longer believes it now either. We have talked about it but I don’t divide over it with him. One’s salvation is not based upon believing it or not. It can be a very heated topic. I stated my personal beliefs in the OP.
 
To add to the discussion I think the problem with believing it or not depends upon one’s view of literal and figurative language and if they overlap or not. Those who oppose eternal punishment would affirm it’s figurative while those affirming it would say the figurative language can be taken literally.
 
One of my best friends who I led to the Lord back in the 80’s who is a fellow trinitarian no longer believes it now either. We have talked about it but I don’t divide over it with him. One’s salvation is not based upon believing it or not. It can be a very heated topic. I stated my personal beliefs in the OP.
Yes, that's the most important thing to recognize.
Nobody wants to lose salvation, regardless of whether hell is eternal or temporal, or it is an annihilation.
Our focus in on eternal life, not on hell :)

Still, the importance of talking about the topic resides, in my view, on whether people could be putting an obstacle to modern minds to get interested in God and the Scriptures. It also serves as an excuse for people who seem to get a morbid satisfaction in seeing others punished forever.
 
Yes, that's the most important thing to recognize.
Nobody wants to lose salvation, regardless of whether hell is eternal or temporal, or it is an annihilation.
Our focus in on eternal life, not on hell :)

Still, the importance of talking about the topic resides, in my view, on whether people could be putting an obstacle to modern minds to get interested in God and the Scriptures. It also serves as an excuse for people who seem to get a morbid satisfaction in seeing others punished forever.
Agreed 👍
 
To add to the discussion I think the problem s with believing it or not depends upon one’s view of literal and figurative language and if they overlap or not. Those who oppose eternal punishment would affirm it’s figurative while those affirming it would say the figurative language can be taken literally.

Yes, absolutely.
As you clearly said in the opening post, the Bible explicitly says that the torment is eternal, unending.
But we all know that the sacred text says a lot of things that we do not take literally.

Take, for example, "being born again".
I wonder... if the evangelist hadn't included the question of Nicodemus about the literal meaning of "being born again", and had just left people to make their own interpretation of Jesus words... how many would believe that men have to enter again their mother's womb to be born again?

Same thing with Jesus words on "This is my body" "This is my blood" in reference to a loaf of bread or a glass of wine. Who believe that he meant that bread and wine would somehow miraculously become His body and blood? Only a percentage of Catholics. Most of them, in their heart of hearts, consider them as allegoric.

So, many of disputes among people from different churches or religions are about the literal or metaphorical way to approach a text.
 
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When struggling with a text that can have either a literal or a metaphorical meaning, we may ask ourselves these three questions:

1. Which explanation is closer to what the Scripture, as a whole, teaches about God's love, purpose or attributes?
2. Which explanation is closer to reason and science?
3. Which explanation helps me better to love my neighbor and live the life of Christ?
 
When struggling with a text that can have either a literal or a metaphorical meaning, we may ask ourselves these three questions:

1. Which explanation is closer to what the Scripture, as a whole, teaches about God's love, purpose or attributes?
2. Which explanation is closer to reason and science?
3. Which explanation helps me better to love my neighbor and live the life of Christ?
Nice list I would place 3 before 2 on the list. I’m sure you would also include morals, ethics, conscience in there somewhere too right ?
 
Nice list I would place 3 before 2 on the list. I’m sure you would also include morals, ethics, conscience in there somewhere too right ?
Yes, you're right.
Perhaps we should place it number 1, as it is worthless to know what the Scripture teaches in general about God, if we do not translate such knowledge into a life of love, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13.
 
Yes, you're right.
Perhaps we should place it number 1, as it is worthless to know what the Scripture teaches in general about God, if we do not translate such knowledge into a life of love, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13.
This study based upon Gods character as Love is what led me out of Calvinism after 40 years as a Calvinist. I was wrong about God. I would be interested in your feedback.

 
Yes, absolutely.
As you clearly said in the opening post, the Bible explicitly says that the torment is eternal, unending.
But we all know that the sacred text says a lot of things that we do not take literally.

Take, for example, "being born again".
I wonder... if the evangelist hadn't included the question of Nicodemus about the literal meaning of "being born again", and had just left people to make their own interpretation of Jesus words... how many would believe that men have to enter again their mother's womb to be born again?

Same thing with Jesus words on "This is my body" "This is my blood" in reference to a loaf of bread or a glass of wine. Who believe that he meant that bread and wine would somehow miraculously become His body and blood? Only a percentage of Catholics. Most of them, in their heart of hearts, consider them as allegoric.

So, many of disputes among people from different churches or religions are about the literal or metaphorical way to approach a text.
Excellent post! It made me think. Yeah I know that can be dangerous.

But whenever I think about this teaching from Jesus found in In John 6:53–57 The first thing that comes to my mind is what Jesus said that he is the true manna from heaven. He gives us life. Bible says that man does not live by bread alone but by Gods word. And Jesus is the Word.

As far as people coming up with all sorts of interpretations of God's Word the bible tells us this:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it" Matthew 13:10-17

The Story of Lazarus and the rich man explained heaven and hell quite well found in Luke 16:19-31

Jesus teaches here that heaven and hell are both real, literal places. Sadly, many preachers shy away from uncomfortable topics such as hell. Some even teach “universalism” – the belief that everyone goes to heaven. Yet Christ spoke about hell a great deal, as did Paul, Peter, John, Jude, and the writer of Hebrews. The Bible is clear that every person who has ever lived will spend eternity in either heaven or hell. Like the rich man in the story, multitudes today are complacent in their conviction that all is well with their soul, and many will hear our Savior tell them otherwise when they die.
 
Jesus teaches here that heaven and hell are both real, literal places. Sadly, many preachers shy away from uncomfortable topics such as hell. Some even teach “universalism” – the belief that everyone goes to heaven. Yet Christ spoke about hell a great deal, as did Paul, Peter, John, Jude, and the writer of Hebrews. The Bible is clear that every person who has ever lived will spend eternity in either heaven or hell. Like the rich man in the story, multitudes today are complacent in their conviction that all is well with their soul, and many will hear our Savior tell them otherwise when they die.
Hi Darby

I guess there are several variants on universalism.
I am an universalist, in the sense that I believe God will save, eventually, everyone.
But I believe in punishment, in hell, both in this life and in the afterlife. To me, though, punishment is a manifestation of God's love, and has a corrective purpose. When that purpose has been met, then God saves the person, without violation of his free will, because that's what God has always wanted. When God wants something, He gets it. His purpose can't be frustrated.

Hell is eternal in the very same sense that the life Christ offers is eternal.
Nothing known to man could ever separate us from the love of Christ. No threats, no pleasures, no fears.
By the same token, nothing known to man could ever rescue a man from his degraded condition. No drugs, no wealth, popularity, or pleasures.

There is no escape from hell... from the perspective of the sinner. Not from the perspective of God.
Certainly I am open to discuss this more if you are interested in knowing more the rationale for my position.
 
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