Doctrine of eternal punishment

[Studyman]

Death is not the absence of life. To be absent from the body ( dead ) is to be present with the Lord. Our spirit/ souls are eternal .

It seems important to consider all that is written, and not inject popular ancient religious tradition into a few verses. No doubt Paul believed God could preserve David and him until the Christ returns. This doesn't mean Paul believed his soul was immortal. Please Consider some of Paul's other teachings, if you will.

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Of course, mortal men must "SEEK For" immortality, because they are not born with Immortality. Paul is not refuting the existence of God's Eternal Fire here, nor does he refute that this Lake of Fire was reserved for satan and its angels because they are immortal. He is saying that humans are mortal and therefore, must "SEEK immortality".

1 Cor. 15: 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal "must" put on immortality.

Of course, mortal men must put on immortality, because they are not born with immortality. Paul is not refuting the existence of God's Eternal Fire here, nor does he refute that satan and its angels are immortal. He is saying that the human body and soul are not immortal. He agrees with Jesus, that God has the power to kill both body and soul of humans, but not satan and its angels, because humans are mortal, but angels are not.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Of course, mortal men must receive immortality, because they are not immortal. Upon receiving immortality, "THEN" shall death be swallowed up. Those who do not receive the gift of immortality die an eternal death that comes from mortals being thrown into the Lake of Fire reserved for satan and its angels.

1 Tim. 6: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who "only hath" immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Of course, no man has dwelled in the Light of the King of Kings. Is this not because He is truly immortal, sitting on the Right Hand of His Father, whereas Paul was not. And Paul will remain dead, along with David, both dead and buried, until a power greater that they give them life in the "First Resurrection" at the return of Christ. Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are raised "From the Dead" later. "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I have no reason not to believe the Scriptures in this matter.

2 Tim. 1: 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Of course, the Jesus of the Bible must "Bring Life and Immortality" with Him when HE returns. Because humans are Mortal, according to Paul's words that I have posted for your review and examination.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

What reward is this that Jesus brings? According to popular philosophy, it can't be immortality that HE brings, because "many", who come in Christ's name, preach that everyone's soul is already immortal.

When these words of Paul are combined with the Scriptures I posted in my first reply, it provides a lot of support that the Christ's Words HE Spoke in Scriptures is true. And that for humans, "I (The Jesus of the Bible) tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

They had a beginning but do not have an end. I will be glad to discuss this some more with you after I’m off work today.

This is true for those who have received immortality. For those who didn't receive immortality, "they shall surely die". There are those who teach "You shall surely not die" because you are already immortal. But I am advocating for the belief in ALL that is written in the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Studyman]

Matthew 25:46 [NASB] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

• same "eternal" for both destinies.
• Eternal PUNISHMENT [G2851: penal infliction:—punishment, torment] not Eternal DESTRUCTION

I don't think anyone is disputing that the wage (Punishment) for Sin is "DEATH" or that the 2nd "Death" is not "Eternal".

If "DEATH" is the punishment, and this Punishment is "Eternal", does this not mean then, that for mortal humans the second death leaves them "Eternally dead"? The punishment is final, and eternal?

So isn't Jesus saying, "And these shall go away into everlasting death: but the righteous into everlasting life"?

To believe popular ancient religious tradition, I would have to believe that God gives everyone immortality, not just those whose names are written in the "Book of Life".

There is certainly a truth here. Either God gives the unrighteous immortality, or He destroys both body and soul in the hell fire reserved for immortal satan and its immortal angels.

If a person takes this verse, and separates it from the rest of the Scriptures, one might make a case that the wages of sin is eternal life of torture.

But when "ALL" that is written in scriptures is taken into account, it seems the punishment of sin is "DEATH", not eternal life.

 

[civic]

Death does not mean that the soul/spirit cease to exist. It means the soul/spirit is separated from the human body at death. As we read the rich man and Lazarus still have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

 

[Diserner]

It helps to recognize—when we want to avoid something suffering—it is always an emotional aversion.

Whether it be sinners suffering forever in hell.

Or Jesus suffering that same wrath on the Cross.

It is always an emotional problem, where our aversion to suffering makes us feel like God is too cruel.

 

[atpollard]

I don't think anyone is disputing that the wage (Punishment) for Sin is "DEATH" or that the 2nd "Death" is not "Eternal".

If "DEATH" is the punishment, and this Punishment is "Eternal", does this not mean then, that for mortal humans the second death leaves them "Eternally dead"? The punishment is final, and eternal?

So isn't Jesus saying, "And these shall go away into everlasting death: but the righteous into everlasting life"?

To believe popular ancient religious tradition, I would have to believe that God gives everyone immortality, not just those whose names are written in the "Book of Life".

There is certainly a truth here. Either God gives the unrighteous immortality, or He destroys both body and soul in the hell fire reserved for immortal satan and its immortal angels.

If a person takes this verse, and separates it from the rest of the Scriptures, one might make a case that the wages of sin is eternal life of torture.

But when "ALL" that is written in scriptures is taken into account, it seems the punishment of sin is "DEATH", not eternal life.

I view the issue as an Imageo Dei problem. God BREATHED His Breath/Spirit into the first man and made Adam a living being (distinct from how all other creatures gained life). Our soul has an ETERNAL nature drawn from its God origin. The reason God does not destroy people is NOT because God delights in their eternal torment. The reason God does not destroy people is because our SOUL contains a spark of divine breath (the Imageo Dei) that cannot be destroyed. "The gifts of God are irrevocable" ... including the existence of our immortal soul.

Hell is the Imageo Dei forever condemned to judgement by the HOLINESS of its Creator that it can NEVER approach. "Our LORD is a consuming fire" ... only those purified IN CHRIST may approach. Hell is not a punishment as much as an inevitable consequence. Being CAST OUT of His Presence is the punishment ("Depart from me ...")

 

[e v e]

I view the issue as an Imageo Dei problem. God BREATHED His Breath/Spirit into the first man and made Adam a living being (distinct from how all other creatures gained life).

That is the normal way for a soul to be born in paradise.. to step right out of God's breath!

So pretty!

it was after the fall then that animal fleshbody procreation
then soon started up...because of adam the traitor,
and as the fallen sin nature.

 

[Studyman]

Death does not mean that the soul/spirit cease to exist.

But there is a difference between those who are dead, and those who are alive, at least according to Scriptures.

Is. 38: 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Psalms 146: 2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc. 9: 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalms 6: 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ecc. 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So there is no doubt, according to Scriptures at least, that the dead exist in God's Realm. How can HE raise men from the dead, if the dead don't exist? No one is saying that everyone who participates in the first death cease to exist. But it is clear that until they are "Raised from the dead", they remain dead. Just as David, who had been dead and buried for centuries before Peter, was still dead and buried in Peter's time. And the "DEAD" know nothing, not even that they are dead.

Now these Scriptures, and the ones I posted before that no one has bothered to acknowledge or discuss, are the same Holy Scriptures Paul said are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

What I am advocating for, is allowing God, through HIS Inspired Holy Scriptures, to define life and death for us. In this case, what the Scriptures actually say, when considering them "ALL" is contrary to popular religious philosophy regarding life and death. AS a result, I have chosen to reject the religious philosophy of this world, and cling to the Holy Scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It means the soul/spirit is separated from the human body at death.

Yes, as it is written, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This is the same for the righteous and the unrighteous, Yes? So in Peter's Time, David was still dead and buried. His spirit still existed, but he didn't know anything, even that he is dead. He cannot praise or curse God. Why? Because he is dead. Will he not remain dead, until God raises Him from the dead, and returns life to his spirit? And when does this happen, according to Scriptures? Is it not to happen at the return of the Lord's Christ?

You are not the first one to be convinced by those saying that the resurrection is past already. But if we study "ALL" that is written, it becomes clear that Paul is still dead and buried, and that he died in Faith and Hope that the Christ of the Bible would return and raise him from the dead.

As we read the rich man and Lazarus still have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

In this parable, both Abraham and Lazarus have already been raised from the dead. Which means they had been reigning with Christ for a 1000 years already before the unrighteous Rich Man "Lived again".

Rev. 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Both Abraham and Lazarus were "Alive" at the same time the unjust rich man was alive. Which means they were already raised from the "DEAD" and given life in the "First Resurrection", a thousand years before the rich man was raised from the dead.

The point being, if a person believes "ALL" that is written in the Scriptures about life and death, they will believe there is no consciousness in death. That each dead man's spirit exits, but cannot think, speak or judge because there is no "life". That there remains a resurrection of the dead, at the return of the Christ, "of the Bible". And if this resurrection doesn't happen, then our Faith is in vain.

And the spirit that is thrown into the fire, is destroyed, not preserved for a future judgment. This death, the punishment for Sin, is eternal. There is no longer a chance at life for the spirit that God throws into the Lake of Fire. This is why, in my view, that Jesus said to fear Him who has the power to destroy both body and soul in hell fire.

Immortality is a gift from God, we are not born with it. At least not according to the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Studyman]

I view the issue as an Imageo Dei problem. God BREATHED His Breath/Spirit into the first man and made Adam a living being (distinct from how all other creatures gained life).

My interest is not in this world's religious philosophies, but in what the Holy scriptures, Inspired by God, actually teaches.

Ecc. 3: 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Gen. 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Is God not living? Does he not have consciousness? So we are truly created in the image of God.

Our soul has an ETERNAL nature drawn from its God origin.

This is a popular religious philosophy, and no doubt there is a voice who promotes this teaching, But not the God of the Bible. Please consider what God actually says to the man.

Gen. 2: 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

It is written, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Therefore, if God can give life, HE can also take it away. The Jesus "of the Bible" warns about this very thing. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

You would not be the first to be convinced by another voice, who also quotes some of God's Word, that Ye shall not surely die. It's a very popular religious philosophy of this world. But one the Scriptures do not support, if "all" of them are taken into account.

The reason God does not destroy people is NOT because God delights in their eternal torment. The reason God does not destroy people is because our SOUL contains a spark of divine breath (the Imageo Dei) that cannot be destroyed. "The gifts of God are irrevocable" ... including the existence of our immortal soul.

Again, this may be a popular religious belief promoted by this world's religions that you and I were born into. But immortality is a gift God gives "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality," at least according to Paul. It's a gift we must receive. "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

It is not something we are born with.

John 17:2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 10: 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Again, according to the Jesus "of the bible", Immortality is something HE gives His People. Not something we are born with.

At least that is what the scriptures actually teach.

Hell is the Imageo Dei forever condemned to judgement by the HOLINESS of its Creator that it can NEVER approach. "Our LORD is a consuming fire" ... only those purified IN CHRIST may approach.

Yes, as it is written;

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Hell is not a punishment as much as an inevitable consequence.

The punishment is death, not eternal life.

Being CAST OUT of His Presence is the punishment ("Depart from me ...")

If God is omnipresent, if HE created the world and all that therein exists, then how can someone hide from Him. Now a mortal spirit, that has not received immortality because God has not given it to the Christ, that is thrown into a Lake of fire reserved for immortal angels, gets destroyed. An eternal destruction. It ceases to exist. It is, as the Jesus of the Bible says, "Destroyed". This is the "Second Death". A person who is destroyed, is cast out of God's Presence. satan lives forever because it is immortal. God doesn't say to satan, "Depart from Me", because immortal being always exist in some capacity, even bound and cast in the abyss, it is still in God's presence because God also owns the Abyss. But a mortal spirit, which has not received immortality by the only Power that can give it, that is thrown into what Jesus called "Lake of Fire", is destroyed with eternal destruction. That is, a destruction from which there is no return. Eternal Punishment.

I am simply advocating for the Scriptures, "all" of them, to direct us in these matters. Not the various religious philosophies of this world God placed us in.

 

[atpollard]

@Studyman
Disagree, but nothing good will come from endless repetition, so enough is enough.

I'll see you on the next topic.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman
Disagree, but nothing good will come from endless repetition, so enough is enough.

I'll see you on the next topic.

It's not about disagreement or agreement with me. It's about examination and discussion regarding what the Scriptures actually say regarding these topics.

I do disagree that "no good" comes from examination and discussion of popular religious doctrines, and the Scriptures which speak to them. And it is a great topic, but it does take at least two to have such a discussion.

Perhaps then, maybe we can have a discussion of the next topic. See you then.

 

[civic]

Luke 16 (CSB)

The Rich Man and Lazarus​

19 “There was a rich man who would dress in purple and fine linen, feasting lavishly every day. 20 But a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, was lying at his gate. 21 He longed to be filled with what fell from the rich man’s table, but instead the dogs would come and lick his sores. 22 One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torment in Hades, he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off, with Lazarus at his side. 24 ‘Father Abraham! ’ he called out, ‘Have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this flame! ’

25 “ ‘Son,’ Abraham said, ‘remember that during your life you received your good things, just as Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here, while you are in agony. 26 Besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to pass over from here to you cannot; neither can those from there cross over to us.’

27 “ ‘Father,’ he said, ‘then I beg you to send him to my father’s house —  28 because I have five brothers — to warn them, so that they won’t also come to this place of torment.’

29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.’

30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said. ‘But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “But he told him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’ ”


A simple question, if ECT is false, why did Jesus (the only person that knew the truth) lie about it in the story about the Rich Man and Lazarus?

Amen or else it makes Jesus a liar.

 

[Studyman]

Luke 16 (CSB)

The Rich Man and Lazarus​

19 “There was a rich man who would dress in purple and fine linen, feasting lavishly every day. 20 But a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, was lying at his gate. 21 He longed to be filled with what fell from the rich man’s table, but instead the dogs would come and lick his sores. 22 One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torment in Hades, he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off, with Lazarus at his side. 24 ‘Father Abraham! ’ he called out, ‘Have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this flame! ’

25 “ ‘Son,’ Abraham said, ‘remember that during your life you received your good things, just as Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here, while you are in agony. 26 Besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to pass over from here to you cannot; neither can those from there cross over to us.’

27 “ ‘Father,’ he said, ‘then I beg you to send him to my father’s house —  28 because I have five brothers — to warn them, so that they won’t also come to this place of torment.’

29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.’

30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said. ‘But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “But he told him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’ ”


A simple question, if ECT is false, why did Jesus (the only person that knew the truth) lie about it in the story about the Rich Man and Lazarus?

Certainly God raises men in the final judgment. And no doubt this man is shown his judgment, and also what he threw away for a short time of fleshy pleasures. But Abraham had been alive in the Kingdom of God for 1000 years before this event. Where are his brothers? They are certainly also dead and not with Abraham. Where are the billions of men who, according to ECT, are given God's Gift of immortality to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire reserved, not for them, but for satan, a spirit? For ECT to be true, I would have to reject volumes of God's Word and the Words of His Son, based on the Catholic interpretation of this one scripture. I would have to believe that Lazurus, was the first person ever to be "thrown in the Lake of Fire", as there is no mention of any other person in torment with him. Maybe he was the very first of the uncountable number of men which will be thrown into the lake. That might explain why there are no others also pleading with Abraham, weeping and gnashing of teeth. OR!!! Maybe God wasn't lying to us at all. May the reason why Lazurus didn't see his brothers. or anyone else in the Lake of Fire, is because when thrown in, it destroys both body and soul, just like the Jesus "of the bible" says it does.

Ps. 37: 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

It seems the Spirit of Christ in David Agrees with the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible".


An everlasting destruction would be a destruction which is final. The Last Death. A death from which there is no return. That is, the Death this fire causes mortals who are cast into it, is a Death Everlasting, a Death in which there is no more resurrections.

I understand how popular this religious philosophy is, that God grants Everyone the gift of immortality. And it is certainly a good marketing strategy for the religions of this world as they compete for souls to promote and support their individual religious sect or business.

But to believe in it, I would have to choose the doctrines of the "many" who come in Christ's Name, that Jesus warned about, over the Words of God and His son whom HE sent. Since I place my trust in the Holy scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" and have no reason to adopt this world's religious traditions. I find zero evidence that God grants His Enemies His Gift of eternal life.



.

 

[Studyman]

Death does not mean that the soul/spirit cease to exist.

Not the first death.

It means the soul/spirit is separated from the human body at death. As we read the rich man and Lazarus still have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Your religious philosophy here doesn't account for the Biblical fact of "Resurrection". Abraham was still dead and buried in Lazarus's life, and they both were resurrected 1000 years before the rich man was resurrected. This is why I don't adopt this world's religions, because to do so, I would be forced to ignore and reject so much of what is written.

This Parable that Jesus spoke, wasn't for the purpose of promoting the lie that God gives EVERYONE immortality. It's about men being judged by their works. And about a time when men's time to repent runs out.

Religious men, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, use this parable to promote popular religious philosophies of men, but when a person considers "EVERY WORD" of God/Christ as instructed, the popular religious philosophies of this world's religious sects and businesses are proven false.

This Parable Jesus spoke doesn't make void the rest of the Bible's teaching concerning the death God promised to those who create their own religion which rejecting the Way of the Lord. The Jesus "of the Bible" warns His People to take heed of the "many" who come in His Name, promoting the imagination of their own mind.

The teaching that God gives all men the gift of immortality, is one such falsehood, in my view.

 

[civic]

Not the first death.



Your religious philosophy here doesn't account for the Biblical fact of "Resurrection". Abraham was still dead and buried in Lazarus's life, and they both were resurrected 1000 years before the rich man was resurrected. This is why I don't adopt this world's religions, because to do so, I would be forced to ignore and reject so much of what is written.

This Parable that Jesus spoke, wasn't for the purpose of promoting the lie that God gives EVERYONE immortality. It's about men being judged by their works. And about a time when men's time to repent runs out.

Religious men, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, use this parable to promote popular religious philosophies of men, but when a person considers "EVERY WORD" of God/Christ as instructed, the popular religious philosophies of this world's religious sects and businesses are proven false.

This Parable Jesus spoke doesn't make void the rest of the Bible's teaching concerning the death God promised to those who create their own religion which rejecting the Way of the Lord. The Jesus "of the Bible" warns His People to take heed of the "many" who come in His Name, promoting the imagination of their own mind.

The teaching that God gives all men the gift of immortality, is one such falsehood, in my view.

Scripture teaches suffering eternal punishment/torment where the worm never dies. Jesus words not mine. Forever and ever means never ending.

 

[Studyman]

Scripture teaches suffering eternal punishment/torment where the worm never dies. Jesus words not mine. Forever and ever means never ending.

Worms feed mostly on the dead, not the living. And even if they did feed on the living, at some point the body would be consumed, and as a wisp of smoke, would consume away. I think the "worms" are satan and his demons who feed off the dead, as they did when they walked the earth.

1 Pet. 5: 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

And a death, a destruction that is eternal, everlasting, does certainly mean there is no coming back from it, forever.

2 Thess. 1: 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I agree that mortals who partake of this destruction, are destroyed forever. They are NEVER, EVER, coming back into the presence of the Lord. And where can a living being exist, from the presence of the Lord? Truly the demons are not "Destroyed forever" from the presences of the Lord, they are bound up, but not destroyed.

Can you show me where the Scriptures teach that satan is destroyed with eternal destruction? Of course you can't Civic my friend, because the Bible doesn't teach that Immortal beings are destroyed with eternal destruction. They are immortal, and therefore will remain in the fire forever. Of course, a mortal man who is thrown in the same fire, he is Destroyed, both body and soul, with an "Everlasting Destruction", that is, a Destruction that is forever and ever. A man is never coming back from this destruction.

The Bible simply doesn't support the popular Catholic tradition of ECT.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus' Words, not mine.

 

[Grace ambassador]

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

not my words, But The Holy Spirit's Words Of Truth!:

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man
worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead,
or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of The Wrath of God, which
is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation;

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the
holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment
ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship
the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
(Rev 14:9-11)​

Amen.

More study:

Undiluted Wrath And Undiluted Grace!

 

[Studyman]

not my words, But The Holy Spirit's Words Of Truth!:

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man​

worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead,​

or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of The Wrath of God, which​

is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation;​

​

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the​

holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment​

ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship​

the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."​

(Rev 14:9-11)​

I'm not sure of your point here and would really appreciate you answering a couple of questions if you would be so kind. Do you believe this verse makes Void the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible" I posted, that God is able to "DESTROY" both body and Soul in hell? Or are you reading this verse as I do, that it supports both God's teaching in the entire LAW and Prophets, and Jesus Teaching as well, John 6:53 "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.", that the Lake of fire, reserved for the immortal satan and its demons, will "Destroy" humans that are tossed into it with an everlasting death. That is, a death in which there is no return.

I find it fascinating, and have studied for 30 years now, the influence of "Religion" on men. I was born into a world in which the religious sects and businesses which existed, pretty much all promote the religious philosophy that all men are granted God's gift of immortality. That "Ye shall surely not die" regarding of our choices. And yet, the God of the Holy Scriptures teaches over and over, "The wages of sin is death" but the gift of God is eternal life.

Before I turned to the God of the Bible, from this world's religions, I injected the doctrine "you shall surely not die" into every scripture I read. But after I was renewed in the spirit of my mind, this religious influence no longer had power over me. So I read scriptures "According to the Light", that is, considering EVERY Word inspired by God.

So I read this verse according to the following.

Regarding the Lake of Fire, molten lava is an example I can relate to. If I torment something that is alive, like a dog or a pig for instance, by throwing them into the Lava, the life that existed is destroyed, everything is burned, even the bones, and what is left of it are small particles of lifeless ash, AKA smoke, that rises in the air, and becomes part of the atmosphere. The Life doesn't ascend forever, as Jesus said, both body and soul is destroyed, but the smoke of their torment continues.

And someone who worships the beast and his image, do they partake of God's Rest? Of course not. Or are you calling "DEATH" God's rest? I'm not sure I agree with the implication that the "Rest" here is death, and those who worship God die (Rest), but those who worship the beast, never die (never rest).

And really, considering the Rich man, in the scriptures that "many", who come in Christ's Name, use to promote the religious philosophy that God gives ALL men immortality, is there any evidence that he continued to Worship the Beast and his image, after he was raised from the dead, and saw the judgment of God towards him?

Think about that, do you really believe that men are going to be in the Lake of Fire, gnashing their teeth and weeping, while they are worshipping the beast and his image? That's kind of silly really, don't you think? Isn't this referring to their "Works" that they engaged in before they died and were resurrected in the final judgment?

And I would also ask one more question, if you would be so kind as to answer. I have asked others, but they were not kind enough to return the small courtesy of answering the question.

Why is there never even one Scripture in the Bible, at least I can't find one, that says satan or its demons, that the fire is reserved for in the first place, are not destroyed with eternal destruction? Why doesn't the smoke of their torment ascend forever. Why doesn't the Spirit of God teach in His Word that satan is destroyed with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power?

So for me, to adopt the popular religious philosophy that God grants all humans immortality, some just spend it in one place, while others a different place, I would be forced to reject and "not believe" so much of the Bible.

But to believe that men will be shown the Life that they threw away, because they would rather serve their own mind than submit to God for just a moment in time, a fleeting vapor which is our lives, and the anguish and anger this would cause men, knowing it was too late for them, as they waited for their final destination, "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord", in a fire that was reserved for immortal beings that they worshiped, "who transformed themselves into apostles of Christ", There isn't even ONE scripture that I would have to ignore to believe this.

Thanks for the reply, I hope you might clarify your understanding of the REV. verse you posted. I look forward to your response.

 

[Grace ambassador]

I'm not sure of your point here and would really appreciate you answering a couple of questions if you would be so kind.

Precious friend, that would be great to have a kind and humble discussion.

So I read scriptures "According to the Light", that is, considering EVERY Word inspired by God.

Certainly won't argue with "...EVERY Inspired Scriptures Of God's Truth...", as that is
included in my Rule # 5 of Bible Study Rules!

"...any man...The same shall drink ...he shall be tormented...the smoke of their torment
ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,..." (Rev 14:9-11)

Do you believe this verse makes Void the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible" I posted, that God is able to "DESTROY" both body and Soul in hell?

In humility towards God, it is probably not a "good work" to use one verse in order to
Cancel Out three other ones, eh? (Rule # 6 Bible study Rules)

1) In this instance it seems to me that this Clarifies the "meaning" of destruction/destroy - ie:

"tormented, with no rest for ever and ever" cannot possibly be the same as
"one-time final" annihilation, or could it?:

"Then shall He Say also unto them on the left hand, Depart From Me,​

ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"​

(Matthew 25:41)​

​

"And these [ UNrighteous dead ] shall go away into everlasting​

punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)​

​

+ God's Word Of Truth To our own GRACE apostle, Paul:

​

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that​

obey not The Gospel of our LORD Jesus Christ: who Shall be punished with​

everlasting destruction from The Presence of The LORD, and from The Glory​

of His Power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 cp Matthew 10:28; Revelation 20:11-15)​

+ God's Word Of Truth To the beloved apostle, John:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and​

brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and Shall Be​

tormented day and night for ever and ever. " (Revelation 20:10)​

​

"The same shall drink of the wine of The Wrath of God, which is poured​

out without mixture into the cup of His Indignation; and he shall be​

tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,​

and in the presence of The LAMB: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth​

up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the​

beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."​

(Revelation 14:10-11)​

Thus, it makes no sense to me to change God's Pure Words Of 'everlasting/for ever and ever'
a continuous process of 'destruction/punishment', and replace them with:

"Final one-time event of annihilation"?​

+ (2) (a) Gr. appollumi = destroy = yes, found in my Bible!

b) Gr. ekmidénisi = annihilation = not found in my Bible?​

3) And, if 'cease to exist' is true, how does one explain The Spirit's Words:

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be​

filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that​

is holy, let him be holy still." (Rev 22:11)​

Surely then, just as the righteous are "in existence and still righteous and holy" for eternity,
how can the unjust then be 'annihilated, ceasing to exist', and yet be "still unjust and filthy"?

Amen.

More study:

Man, His Nature And Destiny!

 

[Studyman]

Precious friend, that would be great to have a kind and humble discussion.

Certainly won't argue with "...EVERY Inspired Scriptures Of God's Truth...", as that is
included in my Rule # 5 of Bible Study Rules!

What I meant by referencing this Christ's Words, is that a man should, according to the Jesus of the Bible, "live by" every Word of God, rather than the religious doctrines and traditions of men, who come in Christ's Name. As Paul also promotes, the Holy Scriptures are trustworthy, "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." But the religious traditions and Philosophies of men? Not so much, as we are instructed to "Beware of", and "Take Heed of" the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but promote the religious traditions and philosophies of men, not God.

It seems that in the examples given in the Scriptures, it wasn't arguing with Scripture that caused men to fall. Are we not tasked to "Prove all things"? It was omitting part of them, and not believing part of them in order to preserve adopted religious traditions which caused men to fall, in my view.

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

In this case, I am diligently seeking to "prove" or "discern" the popular religious philosophy promoted by "Many" who come in Christ's Name, that God Grants the Gift of Immortality to all men regardless of their works to determine, based on what is actually taught by Every Word of God, whether this is a religious philosophy of man, or whether it is wrought in God.

In humility towards God, it is probably not a "good work" to use one verse in order to

Cancel Out three other ones, eh? (Rule # 6 Bible study Rules)

In my attempt to keep my reply short, I only posted One Verse from the Lord's Christ. I used it, because it seemed to me to be the culmination of the teaching from God in the Law and Prophets. Please forgive me for not making myself more clear. Allow me to include more of God's Words which align perfectly with the Words of the Christ that I posted. There are too many to post, so I will just post a few.

Gen. 2: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Note that there were also "other religious voices", who "Professed to know God", that existed in the Garden God placed Eve in, who convinced her as well, that God grants all humans immortality, as spoken by the great deceiver, "Ye shall not surely die". So it seems the argument we are having, regarding whether men die or not, has been going on since Adam and Eve.

Ex. 19: 12And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

Ex. 35: 2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Duet. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Ez. 18: 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Of course there are volumes of Words which proceed from the mouth of God that teach the Same Truth, I only posted just a fraction of the Words of Power that Jesus said could destroy both body and soul.

So Jesus' Words that I posted represents "EVERY WORD" which Proceeds from the mouth of God concerning life and death. Surely you can see how a man seeking God's Truth, would be cautious of this world's popular religious philosophy that God grants "Everyone" immortality, given what is actually written in Scriptures. Certainly Paul didn't believe in this popular religious philosophy.

Rom. 6: 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

And again;

1 Cor. 15: 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death" is swallowed up in victory.

But for the rest who choose death, 2 Thess. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Where can life even Exist, "From the presence of the Lord"? Can satan exist "From the presence of the Lord"? No one who promotes the popular religious philosophy that God grants all Life, immortality, wants to answer this basic, simply question.

So you can see, the popular religious philosophy that God Grants the gift of Immortality to EVERY Human, is a questionable religious philosophy, and one that doesn't seem to be supported by the Holy Scriptures. It seems worthy of discernment, in my view, especially given Jesus said to "Take Heed" we are not deceived. "Deceived" meaning, in my view, to believe things about God and His Word which are not true.

I'll address the rest of your reply in another post. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Studyman]

1) In this instance it seems to me that this Clarifies the "meaning" of destruction/destroy - ie:

"tormented, with no rest for ever and ever" cannot possibly be the same as
"one-time final" annihilation, or could it?:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

You didn't answer my question my friend. Why isn't the "Smoke" of satans torment ascending forever and ever? Both satan and the disobedient are immortal in this religious philosophy you are promoting, Yes? So why is Satan still in the presence of God for ever and ever, but the humans thrown in are destroyed with everlasting destruction "From the presence of the Lord"? Where is the smoke ascending from the torment of satan? So then, what remains of humans who are thrown into the Lake of Fire, is smoke, Yes?

James 4: 14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

Psalms 37: 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

But not satan? It doesn't consume away. How come?

Psalms 68: 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. 2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

But not satan, it and its demons do not perish at the presence of God.

Then the next sentence.

"and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Didn't these folks get judged because of this? What makes you think this is speaking about "After" they are judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire? Are you really promoting that they will still be worshipping the beast "forever and ever" in the fire?

For me, I just want biblical Truth. This one sentence doesn't promote the religious philosophy that God grants all humans immortality.

"Then shall He Say also unto them on the left hand, Depart From Me,​

ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"​

(Matthew 25:41)​

Well of course the Fire is everlasting, it was prepared, not for humans, but for satan and its demons "Because" they are immortal angels. It's right there in Jesus' own Words.

​

"And these [ UNrighteous dead ] shall go away into everlasting​

punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)​

Yes, the unrighteous mortals are raised from the dead, shown their "works", Judged and then punished with death everlasting. No more resurrections, no more life, no more chances for Mercy. They are thrown into a Lake of Fire that was prepared for immortal angels, which will consume them, and turn them into "smoke" that ascends for ever. Their punishment is final, there is no coming back from this punishment.

​

+ God's Word Of Truth To our own GRACE apostle, Paul:

​

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that​

obey not The Gospel of our LORD Jesus Christ: who Shall be punished with​

everlasting destruction from The Presence of The LORD, and from The Glory​

of His Power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 cp Matthew 10:28; Revelation 20:11-15)​

Yes, Destroyed just as Jesus Said, both Body and Soul, with Everlasting Destruction. That is, a destruction from which there is no return, "From the Presence of the Lord". But satan is not "Destroyed" from the presence of the Lord. Because satan lives, while mortals who live in sin "Die", "Perish", "put to death" just as the Holy scriptures teach from the beginning to the end.

+ God's Word Of Truth To the beloved apostle, John:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and​

brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and Shall Be​

tormented day and night for ever and ever. " (Revelation 20:10)​

Yes, the devil and its demons, the angels that were cast down with him, "that transform themselves into apostles of Christ", as the beloved apostle also warns, are cast into the Lake of Fire created and prepared for them. And they truly will be tormented day and night forever, as they are truly immortal. But the mortals who are thrown into the Lake of Fire, are destroyed with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and what remains of them, is smoke which ascends forever.

This is why I asked you the question about why satan isn't "destroyed with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. But you didn't answer.

​

"The same shall drink of the wine of The Wrath of God, which is poured​

out without mixture into the cup of His Indignation; and he shall be​

tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,​

and in the presence of The LAMB: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth​

up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the​

beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."​

(Revelation 14:10-11)​

Yes, the "Smoke" of their torment, which is all that remains of them. While satan and its demons are tormented forever, in the presence of the Lord.

Thus, it makes no sense to me to change God's Pure Words Of 'everlasting/for ever and ever'
a continuous process of 'destruction/punishment', and replace them with:

"Final one-time event of annihilation"?​

It is you, my friend, who "changes" God's Pure Words Of "Death". and replace them with "Life everlasting".

+ (2) (a) Gr. appollumi = destroy = yes, found in my Bible!

Matt. 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Greek "Apollumi" means "To destroy fully". To perish, lose. destroy, DIE, lose mar, perish.

There is nothing that even implies that "destroy" means giving them life eternal.

b) Gr. ekmidénisi = annihilation = not found in my Bible?​

The word is Everlasting Destruction.

Destruction "olethros" means "to destroy", ruin, death, punishment, :- destruction.

3) And, if 'cease to exist' is true, how does one explain The Spirit's Words:

Again, you use your own words, I quoted the One True God, and HIS Words. HE said "Put to Death".

Hebrew for Death, "muwth" "to die, to kill, (be) Dead (body) death, "Destroy".

Now you, and "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, promote the Philosophy that "DEATH" means life everlasting, or immortality, or as it was stated in scriptures, "thou shall surely not die". And we both have been influenced by this teaching from our youth. So in this discussion, you are using only those words which can be used to preserve this popular religious philosophy you have adopted. While I am Seeking Biblical Truth and believing Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God.

In the Scriptures you posted, if a man ignores or is ignorant of the Law and Prophets, and the New Testament, one might be convinced to believe that these verses support the popular religious philosophy that God Grants Immortality to all humans. But when ALL Scriptures is considered, this philosophy, though popular is proven to be questionable at the very least.

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be​

filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that​

is holy, let him be holy still." (Rev 22:11)​

Surely then, just as the righteous are "in existence and still righteous and holy" for eternity,
how can the unjust then be 'annihilated, ceasing to exist', and yet be "still unjust and filthy"?

Well, first of all, you are trying to justify your adopted religious philosophy that God's Grants all human's immortality. This verse doesn't help you do that in my view, especially given it is a vision and a parable. But at some point, time runs out for all men. And that time is when Jesus returns, or when we die the death of all men. Although seductive, and perhaps even popular, the religious philosophy that we can all be lawless and filthy until we see the return of Jesus, then become righteous and gain the Right to the Tree of Life, is also a deception, in my view. At some point, he that is Filthy, remains filthy until the final judgment, and he that is Righteous, remains righteous until the final judgment.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

To believe the religious philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting, I would have to believe the "Unjust and Filthy" also have the God given right to the "Tree of Life".

My argument is not against or even with scriptures. I believe all that is written. My argument is against the popular religious philosophy which is a foundational pillar for "many" religions who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and that is that God Grants all Humans immortality. I know how precious and widely believed this philosophy is, but the Scriptures, when a man considers them all, just doesn't support it.

It would be great if you would answer my questions, as I answered yours. Truly this is an important topic, and worthy of "discerning".