Do you think that we need to be a 100 percent sin free in order to get God to listen to us?

[Johann]

Thank you my friend, and brother-in-Christ. I came looking for your entries, found them and was blessed. So thank you. There is snow falling thickly outside my window this morning in Wales, and I am praising God. So much to be thankful for.

As the recipient of every blessing that is spiritual in Christ Jesus
Our Saviour, Lord and Head.
I rejoice with you.
Chris

Thank you Chris!
And correct you are we have so much to be thankful for-I haven't seen snow in all my life!


Eph 1:3 Praise to God for Spiritual Blessings
¶ Blessed is [Or “blessed be ”] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love, [Or “before him, having predestined us in love” (the phrase “in love” could go either with v. 4 or v. 5)]
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption through Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he bestowed on us in the beloved,
Eph 1:7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 that he caused to abound to us in all wisdom and insight,
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he purposed in him,
Eph 1:10 for the administration of the fullness of times, to bring together all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in him
Eph 1:11 in whom also we were chosen, having been predestined according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12 that we who hoped beforehand in Christ should be for the praise of his glory,
Eph 1:13 in whom also you, when you heard [*This participle (“hearing”) and the following one (“believing”) are understood as temporal] the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

Thank you for the encouraging words, and I pray you will be just as encouraged, Chris.

Johann.

 

[Complete]

Thank you Chris!
And correct you are we have so much to be thankful for-I haven't seen snow in all my life!


Eph 1:3 Praise to God for Spiritual Blessings
¶ Blessed is [Or “blessed be ”] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love, [Or “before him, having predestined us in love” (the phrase “in love” could go either with v. 4 or v. 5)]
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption through Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he bestowed on us in the beloved,
Eph 1:7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 that he caused to abound to us in all wisdom and insight,
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he purposed in him,
Eph 1:10 for the administration of the fullness of times, to bring together all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in him
Eph 1:11 in whom also we were chosen, having been predestined according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12 that we who hoped beforehand in Christ should be for the praise of his glory,
Eph 1:13 in whom also you, when you heard [*This participle (“hearing”) and the following one (“believing”) are understood as temporal] the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

'Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about
with so great a cloud of witnesses, l
et us lay aside every weight,
and the sin which doth so easily beset us,
and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross,
despising the shame,
and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.'
(Heb 12:1-2)

Thank you, @Johann.

When God looks on us, in Christ Jesus, He sees us to be 'Holy and without blame' doesn't He? We walk in newness of life before Him, in spirit , having, in God's estimation, died with Christ, been buried, quickened, raised and ascended with Christ to God's right hand. That is God's reckoning of faith isn't it? and it is to be ours too. He says we are to, 'reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God', through Christ Jesus our Lord. That is God's answer to how we can walk worthily, by reckoning as He reckons, and walking in the light of it, by faith.

We are indeed 'complete in Christ Jesus', 'accepted in the Beloved': This is to be our reckoning of faith. It is a finished work.

I made a tapestry picture once, the canvas on a frame. I could see the picture developing as I stitched, but someone sat opposite me could only see the threads at the back of the work waiting to be threaded in securely, and trimmed. From their perspective it looked a mess, but from my perspective it was a work of art. We are God's workmanship in Christ Jesus. When we make the mistake of looking within, we see only our failure and loss, but God sees the image of His Son.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Johann]

'Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about
with so great a cloud of witnesses, l
et us lay aside every weight,
and the sin which doth so easily beset us,
and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross,
despising the shame,
and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.'
(Heb 12:1-2)

Thank you, @Johann.

When God looks on us, in Christ Jesus, He sees us to be 'Holy and without blame' doesn't He? We walk in newness of life before Him, in spirit , having, in God's estimation, died with Christ, been buried, quickened, raised and ascended with Christ to God's right hand. That is God's reckoning of faith isn't it? and it is to be ours too. He says we are to, 'reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God', through Christ Jesus our Lord. That is God's answer to how we can walk worthily, by reckoning as He reckons, and walking in the light of it, by faith.

We are indeed 'complete in Christ Jesus', 'accepted in the Beloved': This is to be our reckoning of faith. It is a finished work.

I made a tapestry picture once, the canvas on a frame. I could see the picture developing as I stitched, but someone sat opposite me could only see the threads at the back of the work waiting to be threaded in securely, and trimmed. From their perspective it looked a mess, but from my perspective it was a work of art. We are God's workmanship in Christ Jesus. When we make the mistake of looking within, we see only our failure and loss, but God sees the image of His Son.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I fully agree @Complete.


Being Perfect – I Corinthians 1:2
by Pastor John Fredericksen


When I met the woman who was to become my wife, I was convinced she was “the one.” I called my parents telling them I had found the woman to share the rest of my life with, and she was “perfect.” I went on to extol her beauty, charm, love for the Lord, and more. She would have never described herself as perfect, but in my eyes, she certainly was.

As the Apostle Paul opens I Corinthians Chapter 1, he reminds believers they will be “blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1:8). It is important for us to realize there are two aspects of a Christian’s perfection. The first is our position before God the Father. Because, through faith, we have been “made the righteousness of God in Him [the Lord Jesus Christ]” (II Corinthians 5:21).

Our position before the Father is now one of perfection in the identity of the Savior. The Father now sees us as holy and perfect. This position will never change. Our daily practice after salvation is also to be “perfect.” We have been “called to be saints” (I Corinthians 1:2), and the Lord expects us to seek to live up to a standard of holiness. What does that mean? In Philippians 2:14-15 we are told this includes doing “… all things without murmurings and disputings: that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke….”

A standard of perfection then includes a proper attitude free of argument. The Apostle Paul told the saints at Thessalonica: “…I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (I Thessalonians 5:23).

The emphasis here is purity in mind, emotion, and body. All three are important. If we are to stand before the Savior and “not…be ashamed” (II Timothy 2:15), we must consistently be “rightly dividing the Word of truth.”

However, be certain to digest all the above verses that show how we live is as important as how we understand God’s Word. We should also be motivated by the truth of II Corinthians 5:8-11. In eternity, all our life after salvation will be judged, “whether it be good or bad,” and we will all “give an account of himself to God” (Romans 14:12).

While perfection in lifestyle doesn’t mean sinlessness, we should daily be striving to practice genuine holiness in all areas. Raise your personal standard high. You bear the name of Christ!

In Christ Jesus-our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Johann.

 

[Gloria]

Guess you and a few others have reached absolute sinless perfection.

Well there was that one time...then I woke up.

 

[Johann]

Well there was that one time...then I woke up.

Welcome to the Forum @Gloria.

Johann.

 

[charismaticlady]

I looked at about 43 different Bibles and they all say the same thing concerning 1 John 3:6. My favorite out of the 43 was this New Living Translation because I believe you do not know who Christ is unless you're walking in him.

New Living Translation
Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

I may have missed it, but I didn't see what you, yourself, believe.

 

[charismaticlady]

"THE FIRST EPISTLE OF JOHN"
Sin And The Child Of God (3:4-9)

("The Children Of God"), we saw that the true child of God purifies himself because of the hope of seeing Jesus one day - cf. 1Jn 3:2-3

In discussing "purity", the subject of "sin" naturally arises...
Which may be why John moves right into a discussion of "Sin And The Child of God" - 1Jn 3:4-9 )
1Jn 3:4 ¶ Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 And you know that that one was revealed in order that he might take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Everyone who resides in him does not sin. Everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you: the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as that one is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God was revealed: in order to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Everyone who is fathered by God does not practice sin, because his seed resides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God.
1Jn 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are evident: everyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, namely, the one who does not love his brother.

It also fits into John's overall theme of combating the Gnostic- like influences that were teaching that sinning did not affect one's relationship with God
How shall the true child of God regard sin? Is it something to be taken lightly? Not if the apostle John has anything to say about it!
[Using verses 4-9 as our text, then, let's consider what John has to say about "Sin And The Child Of God". We begin by noticing...]

THE "DEFINITION" OF SIN (4)
AS UNDERSTOOD BY SOME...

Sin is nothing more than a violation of human relationships
Which can be easily resolved by correcting relationship problems
-- While SOME sins may be a violation of "human" relationships, the true meaning of sin goes much further than that

THE LITERAL MEANING OF THE WORD "SIN"
The Greek word for "sin" is hamartia {ham-ar'-tee'-ah}, and it literally means "to miss the mark"
E.g., as when an archer fails to hit the center of the target
So "sin" is some kind of action (or lack of it) in which one fails to meet the goal intended by God - cf. Ro 3:23

AS DEFINED BY JOHN...
Sin is "lawlessness" (NKJV), or "transgression of the law" (KJV)
The word for lawlessness (transgression) is anomia {an-om-ee' -ah}, which means "illegality, i.e. violation of law"
I.e., to break or violate a law, such as the law of God
E.g., to steal when the law says "Thou shalt not steal"
So sin occurs when you DO WHAT IS FORBIDDEN (commonly called "a sin of commission")

AS DEFINED BY JAMES...
James describes another kind of sin - cf. Jm 4:17
So sin is also committed when you FAIL TO DO WHAT IS GOOD OR COMMANDED (often called "a sin of omission")
E.g., failing to love your brother
While you may not do ill toward your brother, failure to do good is just as much a sin!

IN BOTH OF THESE DEFINITIONS OF SIN...
One has failed to meet a certain standard (they have "missed the mark")
In this case, the standard is the "law of God"
Which, when carefully noted, is designed to help us in our relationships with...
God
Other people
Even self
Every command of God, both negative and positive, affect these relationships in one way or the other
[Failure to understand the true nature of "sin" is one reason why there is so much apathy toward it today. But every time we sin, we adversely affect our relationship with either God, others, or our own selves!

Further insight into the terribleness of sin is gained by considering what John says about...]

THE "ORIGIN" OF SIN (8a)

SIN IS OF THE DEVIL!
"He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning."
This statement of John is reminiscent of one made by Jesus in Jn 8:44
From the beginning the devil has been the "father" or origin of sin ("he is a liar and the father of it")

THOSE WHO SIN ARE OF THE DEVIL!
Since he is the "father" of sin, those who practice sin are his children
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do" - cf. Jn 8:44a
So when we "miss the mark" by either...
Doing what is forbidden
Failing to do what is commanded ...we demonstrate the influences of the devil in our lives!
[If sin can make one to be "the children of the devil", that ought to tell us something about the terribleness of sin!

But there is something else that describes sin's terribleness, and that is seen as we consider what John says about...]

THE "DEFEAT" OF SIN (5a, 8b)
THIS WAS THE PURPOSE OF CHRIST'S COMING...
"He was manifested to take away our sins" - 1Jn 3:5a
"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." - 1Jn 3:8b
As John the Baptist declared: "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" - Jn 1:29
-- To continue to walk in sin, therefore, is to undermine the purpose of our Lord's coming!

CONSIDER WHAT IT COST JESUS TO ACCOMPLISH THIS PURPOSE...
Nothing less than His own death! - cf. 1Co 15:3
Nothing less than His precious blood! - cf. Ac 20:28; 1Pe 1:18-19
-- Does not this tell us something about the terribleness of sin?
[When we properly understand what sin is, and how terrible it must be in God's sight, then for the "child of God" there can only be one goal: what John describes as...]

THE "REFRAINMENT" OF SIN (6-7, 9)

WHOEVER "ABIDES IN HIM" DOES NOT SIN... (6)
The phrase "does not sin" is present tense in the Greek, suggesting a practice of not sinning
John has already affirmed that Christians sin - cf. 1Jn 1:8,10
To say we have no sin is to lie, and to make God a liar

So John is talking about one who does not "continuously practice sin"

Such is true of those who "abide in Him"
Those who "abide in Jesus" do not continuously engage in sin
That is because they...

Let that which they have heard from the beginning abide in them (i.e., the words of Jesus) - cf. 1Jn 2:24

Strive to walk even as Jesus walked - cf. 1Jn 2:6

But the one who continuously practices sin has neither seen Jesus nor known him (despite any claims to the contrary!)

WHOEVER "HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD" DOES NOT SIN... (9)
Again, John uses the present tense when he says "does not sin"
He is not suggesting that one "born of God" never sins

But that one truly "born of God" does not continuously practice sin
And why is that? Because "His seed remains in Him"

The "seed" is that life-giving principle that makes one a child of God
Which clearly involves the Word of God - cf. Jm 1:18; 1 Pe 1:22-23
As long as one allows the "seed" (the Word of God) to remain in him, he is "born of God"
As such he does not continuously practice sin
Nor can he continuously practice sin, if the "seed" is remaining in him
Instead, he continuously practices righteousness! - 1Jn 3:7

CONCLUSION
Again, it helpful to remember that John is dealing with precursors to Gnosticism, and the idea that one can claim to be "born of God" and not be concerned about sin in their life
But when we are aware of:
The "definition" of sin
The "origin" of sin
The "defeat" of sin
The "refrainment" of sin ...our attitude toward sin will certainly be different than those John was having to combat!
What is your attitude toward sin?
Have you been born again through obedience to the Word of God (the incorruptible seed)?
Are you letting that "seed" remain in you so that you do not continuously practice sin?
How you answer can reveal whose "child" you really are!

Sermons From First John - Sin And The Child Of God (3:4-9)

@Studyman – is there anything you’d like to add or disagree with?

J.

The epistle of 1 John shows there are two types of sin, one that is a sin unto death, and one that is a sin NOT of death. The sin in chapter 3 is a sin unto death. A child of God cannot COMMIT these sins. Adding "practice" is like "I don't practice murder, but I may slip up occasionally! Translators that want to make these verses more palatable have added to the Word of God, but it is not in the original.

 

[charismaticlady]

When you see Him face to face you will be sin100 present sin free. Here we all fall short.

We have to be sin free BEFORE we die, Revelation 22:11. The verse in Romans 3 regarding falling short is in what state we are in before Jesus takes away our sin.

 

[Johann]

The epistle of 1 John shows there are two types of sin, one that is a sin unto death, and one that is a sin NOT of death. The sin in chapter 3 is a sin unto death. A child of God cannot COMMIT these sins. Adding "practice" is like "I don't practice murder, but I may slip up occasionally! Translators that want to make these verses more palatable have added to the Word of God, but it is not in the original.

Not in the "original?" We don't HAVE the originals but copies of copies.

Greek Text (1 John 3:4-9)
Verse 4:
πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν καὶ τὴν ἀνομίαν ποιεῖ, καὶ ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστὶν ἡ ἀνομία.
(Pas ho poiōn tēn hamartian kai tēn anomian poiei, kai hē hamartia estin hē anomia.)

πᾶς (pas): Every, all (nominative singular masculine)
ποιῶν (poiōn): Doing, practicing (present active participle, nominative singular masculine)
ἁμαρτίαν (hamartian): Sin (accusative singular feminine)
ἀνομίαν (anomian): Lawlessness (accusative singular feminine)
The verse equates sin with lawlessness, emphasizing the ongoing nature of sinning (present participle, suggesting a continuous action).
Verse 5:
καὶ οἴδατε ὅτι ἐκεῖνος ἐφανερώθη ἵνα τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν ᾖρῃ, καὶ ἁμαρτία ἐν αὐτῷ οὐκ ἔστιν.
(Kai oidate hoti ekeinos ephanerōthē hina tas hamartias hēmōn airē, kai hamartia en autō ouk estin.)

ἐκεῖνος (ekeinos): He (referring to Christ, nominative singular masculine)
ἐφανερώθη (ephanerōthē): Was revealed (aorist passive indicative, 3rd person singular)
ᾖρῃ (airē): Might take away (aorist active subjunctive, 3rd person singular)
ἁμαρτία (hamartia): Sin (nominative singular feminine)
This verse emphasizes Christ’s mission to remove sin, contrasting His sinlessness with human sinfulness.
Verse 6:
πᾶς ὁ ἐν αὐτῷ μένων οὐχ ἁμαρτάνει· πᾶς ὁ ἁμαρτάνων οὐχ ἑώρακεν αὐτόν, οὐδὲ ἔγνωκεν αὐτόν.
(Pas ho en autō menōn ouch hamartanei; pas ho hamartanōn ouch heōraken auton, oude egnōken auton.)

μένων (menōn): Abiding (present active participle, nominative singular masculine)
ἁμαρτάνει (hamartanei): Sins (present active indicative, 3rd person singular)
ἁμαρτάνων (hamartanōn): Sinner/sinning (present active participle, nominative singular masculine)
Those who abide in Christ do not habitually sin (present tense implies ongoing action), while those who continue sinning do not truly know Him.
Verse 7:
τεκνία, μηδεὶς πλανάτω ὑμᾶς· ὁ ποιῶν τὴν δικαιοσύνην δίκαιός ἐστιν, καθὼς ἐκεῖνος δίκαιός ἐστιν.
(Teknia, mēdeis planatō hymas; ho poiōn tēn dikaiosynēn dikaios estin, kathōs ekeinos dikaios estin.)

ποιῶν (poiōn): Doing, practicing (present active participle)
δικαιοσύνην (dikaiosynēn): Righteousness (accusative singular feminine)
Those who continually practice righteousness demonstrate their alignment with Christ’s righteous nature.
Verse 8:
ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν ἐκ τοῦ διαβόλου ἐστίν, ὅτι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς ὁ διάβολος ἁμαρτάνει. Εἰς τοῦτο ἐφανερώθη ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἵνα λύσῃ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ διαβόλου.
(Ho poiōn tēn hamartian ek tou diabolou estin, hoti ap’ archēs ho diabolos hamartanei. Eis touto ephanerōthē ho Huios tou Theou, hina lysē ta erga tou diabolou.)

ποιῶν (poiōn): Doing, practicing (present active participle)
λύσῃ (lysē): Might destroy (aorist active subjunctive)
The ongoing practice of sin aligns one with the devil, while Christ came to destroy the devil’s works.
Verse 9:
πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἁμαρτίαν οὐ ποιεῖ, ὅτι σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ μένει· καὶ οὐ δύναται ἁμαρτάνειν, ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ γεγέννηται.
(Pas ho gegennēmenos ek tou Theou hamartian ou poiei, hoti sperma autou en autō menei; kai ou dynatai hamartanein, hoti ek tou Theou gegennētai.)

γεγεννημένος (gegennēmenos): Born (perfect passive participle, nominative singular masculine)
ποιεῖ (poiei): Practices (present active indicative, 3rd person singular)
σπέρμα (sperma): Seed (nominative singular neuter)
δύναται (dynatai): Is able (present middle/passive indicative, 3rd person singular)

Those born of God do not habitually commit sin because God’s "seed" (spiritual life or divine nature) remains in them.

Analysis
Present Tense: The verbs ποιῶν (practicing) and ἁμαρτάνων (sinning) are present participles, indicating continuous or habitual action rather than occasional acts.

This supports the interpretation that those born of God cannot habitually sin.

Perfect Passive Participle (γεγεννημένος): This describes a completed action with ongoing results. Those "born of God" have undergone a transformation that results in a changed relationship to sin.

"Practice" in Translations: The addition of "practice" in some translations reflects the Greek present tense's implication of ongoing or habitual sin---

But I am glad to know you occasionally "slip up" as we ALL do!

J.

 

[Johann]

We have to be sin free BEFORE we die, Revelation 22:11. The verse in Romans 3 regarding falling short is in what state we are in before Jesus takes away our sin.

 

[Gloria]

We have to be sin free BEFORE we die, Revelation 22:11. The verse in Romans 3 regarding falling short is in what state we are in before Jesus takes away our sin.

The angel said to John: "Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy" (Revelation 22:11). The point being made here is not that evil is to be encouraged. Rather, the angel's words are a statement of inevitability: people can do as they choose, but God will not change His plans.

In the context of death and the end times, this is a dire warning. Unbelievers who reject the gospel do not receive a second chance to be saved if they die. Eternity does not change anyone's status. The person who dies in an unsaved condition will be unsaved throughout eternity, and the saved person will be saved throughout eternity.

When Jesus returns, He will reward the righteous but punish the unrighteous. Daniel 12:10 states that in the end time "Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly." Someday it will be too late for the unsaved to change their destination by repenting and believing in Jesus. Hebrews 3:15 implores: "Today, if you hear his voice., do not harden your hearts."

 

[Peterlag]

I may have missed it, but I didn't see what you, yourself, believe.

We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

 

[Peterlag]

Guess you and a few others have reached absolute sinless perfection.


1 John 3:6
1Jn_3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

PPC: (1) The Greek perfect expresses the present and permanent result of a past action, and is often equivalent to a present. (2) The fact of the man's sinning proves that his perception and knowledge have been imperfect, if not superficial, or even imaginary;

Whosoever abideth in him -- Barnes: See 1Jo_2:6. The word here employed (μένων menōn) properly means to remain, to continue, to abide.

sinneth not -- RWP: (ouch hamartanei). Linear present (linear menōn, keeps on abiding) active indicative of hamartanō, “does not keep on sinning.”

hath not seen him -- RWP: (ouch heōraken auton). Perfect active indicative of horaō. The habit of sin is proof that one has not the vision or the knowledge (egnōken, perfect active also) of Christ. He means, of course, spiritual vision and spiritual knowledge, not the literal sense of horaō in Joh_1:18; Joh_20:29.

CP: "John is not claiming that Christians do not sin, for he has already said (1:8-10) that if we claim to be without sin, we are liars. The expression “who lives in him,” literally means “abides, or remains” in him. This statement was not intended to mean that we do not sin; it means we do not live a life of sin."

BBC: The question naturally arises, “When does sin become habitual? How often does a person have to commit it for it to become characteristic behavior?” John does not answer this. Rather he puts each believer on guard

PO&SB "The Greek means this: if we continue in sin, if we go on sinning and sinning, then we do not really know Christ."


Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD)
Clement often emphasized striving for spiritual maturity and moral perfection but did not teach absolute sinlessness. He described perfection as growth in virtue and alignment with divine will.

Quote:
"Being perfect is not perfect by itself, but perfect in relation to something else. For a man becomes perfect if he becomes worthy of God, attaining as far as possible the perfection of that virtue in activity and contemplation."
(Stromata 6.9)
This reflects a dynamic and relational view of perfection, rather than a static, sinless state.

Origen (c. 185–254 AD)
Origen spoke of perfection as a spiritual ideal achieved through knowledge of God and moral discipline. However, he acknowledged human frailty and dependence on divine grace.

Quote:
"We are not sufficient to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God. Therefore, even if we make some progress toward perfection, it is not our own doing but a gift of God’s mercy."
(Commentary on Romans 7.1)
This indicates that while Origen encouraged striving for perfection, he saw it as unattainable without God’s intervention.

Tertullian (c. 155–220 AD)
Tertullian placed great emphasis on avoiding sin, especially after baptism. He also viewed martyrdom as the ultimate act of faithfulness and perfection, though not in the sense of moral sinlessness.

Quote:
"After that, you have received the forgiveness of sins, there remains no longer room for repentance, but only for perfection."
(On Modesty 9)
Here, Tertullian exhorts Christians to strive for a holy life post-baptism but does not imply an absolute inability to sin.

Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200–258 AD)
Cyprian stressed repentance and the possibility of forgiveness after sin but acknowledged the ongoing battle against human weakness.

Quote:
"Let us believe, my beloved brethren, that we can be victorious not by our own strength but by His help. Let us cling to His grace and be made perfect through it, for even the best among us sins daily."
(Epistle 58: To Cornelius)
Cyprian acknowledged daily sins, pointing to reliance on God’s grace for sanctification.

Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD)
Augustine was explicit in rejecting sinless perfection, particularly during his debates with Pelagius, who argued that humans could achieve sinlessness through effort.

Quote 1:
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. This is why even the righteous man says in his prayer: 'Forgive us our debts.' This prayer is not for the unbaptized but for those reborn in Christ."
(On Nature and Grace 36)

Quote 2:
"In this life, the saints are not entirely without sin. Although they make progress, they still pray daily for forgiveness because they cannot live without sin."
(Against Two Letters of the Pelagians 4.13)

Augustine firmly held that no one attains absolute sinlessness in this life, highlighting the continual need for grace.

The Didache (c. 50–120 AD)
The Didache, an early Christian manual for teaching, stresses living a righteous life but acknowledges human imperfection and the need for repentance.

Quote:
"Confess your sins in church and do not go to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life."
(Didache 4.14)
The directive to confess sins assumes that Christians will fall short and require forgiveness.

The Shepherd of Hermas (c. 90–150 AD)
The Shepherd of Hermas, a popular early Christian text, emphasized repentance and the pursuit of righteousness but acknowledged the reality of sin.

Quote:
"If you do not guard yourself against anger, you and your house will lose all hope of salvation. But turn to the Lord, and your sins will be forgiven, for none are without fault."
(The Shepherd 2:6)
This shows that sin is part of the human condition, even for believers, but repentance restores fellowship with God.

Summary of ECF Teachings:
Striving for Holiness: The ECFs encouraged believers to pursue moral and spiritual growth, often describing this as “perfection” in the sense of maturity.

Reality of Sin:
Most fathers acknowledged that sin remains a struggle for Christians, though willful sin should be avoided.

Role of Grace: They emphasized that human efforts alone are insufficient for achieving holiness; reliance on God’s grace is essential.

The ECFs’ writings reflect a balance between exhorting believers to live righteously and recognizing their ongoing need for forgiveness and divine aid.

J.

I can't find the words "sinless perfection" in the Bible. It does not say...

Being then made free from sin,... [we now have sinless perfection]

being made free from sin,... [we now have sinless perfection]

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: [and therefore has sinless perfection]

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin,... [which means they have sinless perfection]

We know that whosoever is born of God [has sinless perfection]

It says...

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

 

[Johann]

We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

This contains several errors-

When we receive the Spirit of Christ, we undergo a profound transformation at the core of our being. Our identity in Adam-marked by sin and separation from God-is fundamentally changed. In Christ, we become a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17), a child of God, and are united with Him in His death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-6). However, this transformation does not mean that who we were in Adam ceases to exist entirely; rather, it is crucified with Christ in a spiritual sense, freeing us from sin’s dominion.

This exchange is spiritual and actual, but it is also progressive in its outworking. While we are positionally united with Christ and considered righteous before God, we still contend with the presence of the sinful nature, often referred to as "the flesh" (Galatians 5:16-17). The old self is rendered powerless, no longer dominating us, but it is not utterly obliterated in this life. Instead, Christians are called to continually "put to death" the deeds of the flesh (Colossians 3:5; Romans 8:13) as we grow in sanctification.

To say the old self is "entirely obliterated" misunderstands the ongoing nature of Christian growth. Paul’s teaching in Romans 7 reflects the reality of this struggle, where the believer desires to obey God but still battles remnants of the old nature. The Christian life involves daily dying to sin and living out the new identity in Christ (Luke 9:23).

In summary, the old self is crucified with Christ in terms of its power over us, but we remain in a process of being conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). The transformation is real and profound but not yet complete until glorification.

J.

 

[Peterlag]

This contains several errors-

When we receive the Spirit of Christ, we undergo a profound transformation at the core of our being. Our identity in Adam-marked by sin and separation from God-is fundamentally changed. In Christ, we become a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17), a child of God, and are united with Him in His death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-6). However, this transformation does not mean that who we were in Adam ceases to exist entirely; rather, it is crucified with Christ in a spiritual sense, freeing us from sin’s dominion.

This exchange is spiritual and actual, but it is also progressive in its outworking. While we are positionally united with Christ and considered righteous before God, we still contend with the presence of the sinful nature, often referred to as "the flesh" (Galatians 5:16-17). The old self is rendered powerless, no longer dominating us, but it is not utterly obliterated in this life. Instead, Christians are called to continually "put to death" the deeds of the flesh (Colossians 3:5; Romans 8:13) as we grow in sanctification.

To say the old self is "entirely obliterated" misunderstands the ongoing nature of Christian growth. Paul’s teaching in Romans 7 reflects the reality of this struggle, where the believer desires to obey God but still battles remnants of the old nature. The Christian life involves daily dying to sin and living out the new identity in Christ (Luke 9:23).

In summary, the old self is crucified with Christ in terms of its power over us, but we remain in a process of being conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). The transformation is real and profound but not yet complete until glorification.

J.

Your concept is thinking in the flesh. Mine is thinking in the spirit. I once wrote it this way...

Therefore, victory in the Christian life is as simple as renewing our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us. We will continue to struggle with sin if we see ourselves as old sinners saved by grace. And so it's also true we will manifest the change that took place in our new nature when we understand we are not old sinners saved by grace. Thus, we act like being part of the senses world when we see ourselves as being part of the senses world. We act like being part of the Christian world when we see ourselves as being part of Christ—i.e., in our born-again spirits.